[TUT317]

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all.'

Tom. I assume you are saying this because you think the constitution has some idealized meaning that can be accessed by 'right minded' people. Are you sure you are happy with that?

I am also sure you are saying that in recent history SCOTUS judges have fallen well short of a 'true' understanding of the constitution. Isn't this political idealism at its worst?

I am talking Alice in Wonderland while you are talking Plato's ,"The Republic". Not much of a choice is it?

Tut

[tomder55]

I am not constructing Plato's Republic as all. Egalitarian utopias are the relm of the left . On this posting I have mentioned Margaret Sanger a couple times. I would say her eugenics is her prescription to the Plato dilemna of the intermingling of the classes .
“All the wisdom and education of your rulers will not attain; the laws which regulate them will not be discovered by an intelligence which is alloyed with sense, but will escape them, and they will bring children into the world when they ought not”

A modern-day Plato would have no need to countenance abortion or infanticide: vasectomy and the pill would ensure that there were no unwanted results of the guardians disporting themselves. Artificial insemination would enable the bureau of eugenics to select for desirable qualities of character and intellect without resort to deception.

http://users.ox.ac.uk/~jrlucas/libeqsor/platsex.html


In 'Republic', Plato is openly hostile to individualism, which he believes destructive of the collective good . The individual is indentured to the state. Justice is synonymous with the well-being of the City. (or as SCOTUS likes to argue often... "the compelling interest of the state ")The classes exist to work as a harmonious collective.
To his credit ,Plato created Republic and then realized the society he envisioned was an unworkable utopian model.

Keep going because there are indeed great minds that the philosophical foundation of theAmerican Republic was based on. But no, Plato's Republic wasn't one of them .But I will give you this... Obama envisions himself one of Plato's philosopher kings.

[talaniman]

I know you would love to think that Tom, but as you say reality trumps fantasy. While this started as an intrusion into religion having to pay for something against there principles, when the president said okay, insurance companies will pay for it. That should have been the end of it, right? Wrong! Now its an accounting trick. (Even though the oligarchy of the right loves accounting tricks), and it still being passed on to the church. But isn't that what the free market is all about? Don't they pass the cost of doing business onto the consumer, whatever it is?

Well that's how the free market (insurance companies specifically) makes money. That's why they can throw a million people off the rolls, and charge whose left a higher premium.

I thought the right wanted the private sector to call the shots? To set prices on the time honored profit directed business model?

I guess free doesn't meet the bottom line at the right place, and your concept of free is limited by your very narrow perspective of ALL the people. No matter the socio-economic condition of the individual. I think that's the true measure of a healthy nation.

But being a progressive independent (liberal), I can see why we have a great conflict of ideas. I just ain't going for that voluntary slave idea of stagnation, or regression, or the my way or the highway mentality.

[tomder55]

Others, which includes women. Why not also hand out clean burqas every morning after we shower or bathe?

... and define pregnancy as a preventable disease .Maybe we should prepare an immunization program.

[tomder55]

Now its an accounting trick... and it still being passed on to the church.

Correct.

But isn't that what the free market is all about? Don't they pass the cost of doing business onto the consumer, whatever it is?

As far as I can tell ,the free market can't compel anyone to buy their product. Evidently the government has assumed that power (unless the unconstitutionaal law is either overturned or repealed ).

And to continue in the 'Through the Looking Glass' theme; you would have us believe that a government that mandates that citizens buy products they don't wish to buy, and to pay for services that violate their deeply held religious beliefs is not authoritarian... but institutions that oppose the mandates are?

[talaniman]

They have a voluntary immunization program already, the church and the righties have to get out of the way. They have been doing it for centuries, but modern science has made it safer.

As far as I can tell ,the free market can't compel anyone to buy their product. Evidently the government has assumed that power (unless the unconstitutionaal law is either overturned or repealed ).

The seat belt law is mandatory, so is car inssurance. Should we repeal those too? Why aren't they unconstitutional?

And to continue in the 'Through the Looking Glass' theme; you would have us believe that a government that mandates that citizens buy products they don't wish to buy, and to pay for services that violate their deeply held religious beliefs is not authoritarian... but institutions that oppose the mandates are?

OMG, the same way Muslims cannot practice their deeply held SHARIA LAW, because it violates OUR laws, Is the same way Catholics cannot violate the LAWS of the LAND! The same way polygamy is illegal, is the same way denying proper health insurance is illegal.

These are the constitutional principle that stop religions from putting there beliefs on others. That includes mine, yours, and theirs! If they cannot practice within the law, what's the point?

That's why the present "accommodation" works well as is, and most practising catholics agree. And in practical terms its just as good as most states have, and better than some.

[tomder55]

The seat belt law is mandatory, so is car inssurance. Should we repeal those too? Why aren't they unconstitutional?

I've addressed this many times before.

1. auto insurance is a STATE and not a FEDERAL law .
2. No one is forcing you to own a car . Obamacare forces us to purchase medical insurance just because we exist.
3. The only part of auto insurance that is mandatory is the liability coverage for doing damage to other persons and /or their property . The comprehensive coverage is optional .

4.It is not morally objectionable to religious institutions to have auto coverage like the mandate to provide/pay for "free" contraception.

Hope that clears it up for you .

[TUT317]

I am not constructing Plato's Republic as all. Egalitarian utopias are the relm of the left . On this posting I have mentioned Margaret Sanger a couple times. I would say her eugenics is her prescription to the Plato dilemna of the intermingling of the classes .
“All the wisdom and education of your rulers will not attain; the laws which regulate them will not be discovered by an intelligence which is alloyed with sense, but will escape them, and they will bring children into the world when they ought not”


Plato's Philosophy of Sex


In 'Republic', Plato is openly hostile to individualism, which he believes destructive of the collective good . The individual is indentured to the state. Justice is synonymous with the well-being of the City. (or as SCOTUS likes to argue often ..."the compelling interest of the state ")The classes exist to work as a harmonious collective.
To his credit ,Plato created Republic and then realized the society he envisioned was an unworkable utopian model.

Keep going because there are indeed great minds that the philosophical foundation of theAmerican Republic was based on. But no, Plato's Republic wasn't one of them .But I will give you this .... Obama envisions himself one of Plato's philosopher kings.

Hi Tom,

A couple of points for clarification.

Firstly, utopian theories exist both at the left and right of politics.

Secondly, I didn't say you were constructing Plato's Republic.

Thirdly, I didn't say the American Republic was based on it.

You made this up.


I am very familiar with the great minds the philosophical foundation of the American Republic was based on. I hold them in high esteem. My comments are not a criticism of these minds.

In exactly the same way my comments are not related to eugenics; nor is there any suggestion you favoured Plato in terms of psychology and/or biology. In other words, I was not trying to answers Plato's question. "What makes a healthy society and a healthy individual?" You jumped to this conclusion.

The comment was in relation to Plato's question, "Who should rule?" It would require going into detail here about 'original intent' but this would lead off topic.

I hope this clears it up.

Tut

[tomder55]

Who should rule ? Locke basically said that ,humans cannot exist without freedom from absolute and arbitrary power;and no one can give more power than he has himself, nor can he assume the same over another.

This is in opposition to our philosopher king's benevolent Hobbesian vision.

[excon]

Hello again:

I'm sorry. I'd LIKE to participate in this conversation, but it's beyond me.. I'm not a philosopher type.

What I want to know, is this... E.J. Dionne, a lib, a Catholic, and AGAINST what the pres did, said that hospitals SHOULD be treated like church's because the good works they do are "inspired" by the church...

Really?? Inspiration should be the standard for tax relief?? If my BUSINESS is "inspired" by my religion, can I call IT a church?? Why not?

excon

[speechlesstx]

But yet they advocate birth control. Odd that.

I already pointed out that info was from ADAM, which is provided by the government. I can guarantee that BSA does not do abortion.

[speechlesstx]

Nobody changes the services you render to those that needs it, quite to the contrary, only the way you treat your EMPLOYEES!!! Nothing to do with patience or clients whatsoever.

DUDE! You're the one that alleged the church had ulterior motives to provide charity, stop changing the subject.

[talaniman]

Just so you know, I always think the people on the ground, who do the actual work (workers), are the best folks in the world, bar none. Its mostly administrative executive types that are full of crap. That's just me.

And no way do I have faith in those who hide and protect pedophiles. NO WAY!!

Have I made myself clear?

No doubt in my mind at all that the catholic leadership has a motive or else why wouldn't they be up in arms in 34 states that have laws (more states are doing it too!), that do exactly what the Prez has done??

[speechlesstx]

She most certainly is not!!!
Geez, if you need to make stuff up like this it means you have nothing left to argue.

Whatever.

Long after her death, Sanger has continued to be regarded as a leading figure in the battle for American women's rights. Sanger's story has been the subject of several biographies, including an award-winning biography published in 1970 by David Kennedy, and is also the subject of several films, including Choices of the Heart: The Margaret Sanger Story.[59] Sanger's writings are curated by two universities: New York University's history department maintains the Margaret Sanger Papers Project,[60] and Smith College's Sophia Smith Collection maintains the Margaret Sanger Papers collection.[61]

Sanger has been recognized with many important honors. In 1957, the American Humanist Association named her Humanist of the Year. Government authorities and other institutions have memorialized Sanger by dedicating several landmarks in her name, including a residential building on the Stony Brook University campus, a room in Wellesley College's library,[62] and Margaret Sanger Square in New York City's Greenwich Village.[63] In 1993, the Margaret Sanger Clinic — where she provided birth control services in New York in the mid twentieth century — was designated as a National Historic Landmark by the National Park Service.[64] In 1966, Planned Parenthood began issuing its Margaret Sanger Awards annually to honor "individuals of distinction in recognition of excellence and leadership in furthering reproductive health and reproductive rights."[65]

Many who are opposed to the legalization of abortion frequently condemn Sanger by questioning her fitness as a mother and criticizing her views on race, abortion, and eugenics.[66][67][note 8] In spite of such attacks, Sanger continues to be regarded as an icon for the American reproductive rights movement and woman's rights movement.

Sounds like she's a hero to the women's rights crowd to me.

[tomder55]

Whatever.



Sounds like she's a hero to the women's rights crowd to me.

All you have to do is read Sec State Clintoon's address when she accepted the Margarent Sanger award from Planned Parenthood to see the veneration.
Remarks at Planned Parenthood Federation of America Awards Gala

[NeedKarma]

Planned Parenthood ≠ women's rights movement

[speechlesstx]

All you have to do is read Sec State Clintoon's address when she accepted the Margarent Sanger award from Planned Parenthood to see the veneration.
Remarks at Planned Parenthood Federation of America Awards Gala

High praise for the women's rights icon indeed.

[NeedKarma]

I already pointed out that info was from ADAM, which is provided by the government. I can guarantee that BSA does not do abortion.

I'll call your BS on this. I run a larger website than the BSA one and I know every page on that site, nothing goes on that isn't approved. BSA hosts the info on their website because they condone it or else it wouldn't be there.

[NeedKarma]

High praise for the women's rights icon indeed.

Hehe, sniffing tom's butt again so you guys can prop each other's posts? I guess you need to do that for each other since you're the only ones of the same opinion.

[speechlesstx]

I'll call your BS on this. I run a larger website than the BSA one and I know every page on that site, nothing goes on that isn't approved. BSA hosts the info on their website because they condone it or else it wouldn't be there.

Do you know how to look at the right side of anything, including your own link? Look to the right and you'll see the "ADAM Navigator". You ought to know better by now than to challenge my facts.