[De Maria]

Naaman didn't think so either (for Protestants who don't believe in Baptism)

When Elisha said to Naaman:
2 Kings 5:
10 ...Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean.

Naaman didn't believe that God could heal him by any water much less the Jordan's saying:
12Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage.

But he was persuaded by his attendants who said:
13My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean?

So Naaman did so and:
14Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.

Naaman couldn't believe that God could heal him by water. About healing Jesus said:
Matthew 9:5
For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?

It is just as easy for God to wash away your illness with water as it is to wash away your sins with water. Therefore Scripture says:
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

And also:
Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

And also:
1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us ....

God can do wonders with water. He can save you unto eternal life. All you need to do is Believe!

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Sincerely,

[paraclete]

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Be careful what quotations you use, you have just undone your argumnets and proven justification by faith from Scripture

[De Maria]

Be careful what quotations you use, you have just undone your argumnets and proven justification by faith from Scripture

No, no. Scripture doesn't contradict itself. The Catholic Sacramental system takes into account both forms of justification described in Scripture.

That is why St. Paul can say:
Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Which is precisely what St. James was talking about when he said:
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

This is Justification by faith and works and is the same type of justification which the Patriarchs underwent in the Old Testament. Overlaying that system is the one which Jesus instituted, based upon the Works of God known as the Sacraments. The first of these is Baptism and Scripture describes it thus:
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

And of course, the one you referred to:
Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

In these, all we do is believe what God does for us. No works necessary. No man can cleanse his own soul. And that is Justification by faith apart from works.

So, the Catholic Church gets the best of both worlds. It is both/and. It is justification by faith and works and those who are thus justified will then be justified perfectly by God in the Sacraments.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[paraclete]

No, no. Scripture doesn't contradict itself. The Catholic Sacramental system takes into account both forms of justification described in Scripture.

That is why St. Paul can say:
Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Which is precisely what St. James was talking about when he said:
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

This is Justification by faith and works and is the same type of justification which the Patriarchs underwent in the Old Testament. Overlaying that system is the one which Jesus instituted, based upon the Works of God known as the Sacraments. The first of these is Baptism and Scripture describes it thus:
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

And of course, the one you referred to:
Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

In these, all we do is believe what God does for us. No works necessary. No man can cleanse his own soul. And that is Justification by faith apart from works.

So, the Catholic Church gets the best of both worlds. It is both/and. It is justification by faith and works and those who are thus justified will then be justified perfectly by God in the Sacraments.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I have no wish to argue Catholic doctrine with you, or trade Scripture for Scripture. Works are a fruit of salvation, not a means to it

[De Maria]

I have no wish to argue Catholic doctrine with you, or trade Scripture for Scripture. Works are a fruit of salvation, not a means to it

But Scripture says that you those who believe and are baptized will be saved.

[JoeT777]

Be careful what quotations you use, you have just undone your argumnets and proven justification by faith from Scripture

In his epistle Paul writes of the works of the Old Testament Law, i.e. wash pots, blood sacrifices, etc.. These are the works of justice Paul and Titus worked for as Jews, “Not by the works of justice, which we have done...” And Paul reminds Titus that mercy comes from the laver of baptism. The washing of sin from the soul in Baptism opens the door to the Catholic Church giving access to God’s graces given the Church, the Sacraments, i.e. Salvation; "but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost;” (Titus 3:5)


JoeT

[JoeT777]

I have no wish to argue Catholic doctrine with you, or trade Scripture for Scripture. Works are a fruit of salvation, not a means to it

What is the 'fruit'?

[paraclete]

But Scripture says that you those who believe and are baptized will be saved.

If you believe Peter then you believe in Believer's Baptism. The reality is without belief the rest doesn't matter and baptism seals it with a public declaration

[Wondergirl]

What is the 'fruit'?

The thank-you.

[paraclete]

; "but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost;” (Titus 3:5)


JoeT

Could I also quote from Titus 3

But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law because these are unprofitable and useless

[paraclete]

The thank-you.

Yes well done!

[De Maria]

If you believe Peter then you believe in Believer's Baptism.

Do you mean St. Peter?

And what is Believer's Baptism? I've heard the term but never had a discussion with anyone defending it.

The reality is without belief the rest doesn't matter

Catholic teaching.

and baptism seals it with a public declaration

Still Catholic. So what does that have to do with the fact that God saves us with water?