[arcura]

inhisservice
PLEASE read what I wrote for calssyT.
I believe that at the time of Jesus Birth Mary was sinless and have said why.
That does not mean that she became a sinner later, though I do not think so.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Wondergirl]

I am saddened much that we Christians who are all under attack from a hostile world of people whose religion hates Christianity and others who are purely secular can not stand together regardless of our few differences to face the war against us.

Please give up the notions that Mary was sinless, was ever virgin, and was taken bodily to heaven, and we will stand with you to face the hostile world of people who hate Christianity.

[JoeT777]

Please post a secular source in favor of your argument. The Catholic Encyclopedia is a bit prejudiced. That would be like my posting my proof from Luther's Works. I suspect you wouldn't buy into it.

Search Results

Redemption of the Firstborn - ReligionFacts

Jewish Treats: Pidyon Ha'ben - Redeeming the Firstborn

The Importance of Being the Firstborn

[arcura]

Wondergirl,
Sorry but I cannot give up that belief because it makes very good sense to me.
Why should that belief keep us apart.
Your belief on that is different than mine BUT it does not keep us apart as co-Christians in my point of view.
I do not demand or ask that you change to what I believe.
I merely ask that you try to understand why I believe as I do.
The war for Christianity to survive and flourish is like those allies who fought WWII and won regardless of the fact that those allies had different customs and beliefs from each other.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Wondergirl]

Joe, do you have any children? If so, how many?

[Wondergirl]

Search Results

Redemption of the Firstborn - ReligionFacts

Jewish Treats: Pidyon Ha'ben - Redeeming the Firstborn

The Importance of Being the Firstborn

These do not prove your point that firstborn = only son. If anything, they prove mine.

The online Merriam-Webster dictionary says --

Main Entry: first·born
Pronunciation: \ˈfərs(t)-ˈbȯrn\
Function: adjective
Date: 14th century

: first brought forth : eldest

Main Entry: on·ly
Pronunciation: \ˈōn-lē\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English ānlīc, from ān one — more at one
Date: before 12th century

1 : unquestionably the best : peerless
to a : alone in a class or category : sole <the only one left> <the only known species> b : having no brother or sister <an only child>
3 : few <one of the only areas not yet explored>

[arcura]

Wondergirl,
I had a first barn son named Shem.
He was my ONLY son and he died of Reyes' Syndrome at the age of 12.
Mary had one first born son who die at the age of 33.
He was her Only son like mine was.
Both died many years ago and I still mourn them both
Mine for the loss of him and for Mary's son I mourn what all the agony He had to go through to save our souls.
Could God have done it a different way?
Perhaps, but in His infinite and perfect wisdom and understanding God did it His way.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[450donn]

Therein lies your problem Fred. You did not have a firstborn because you did not have any other children. You had ONLY ONE child.
But for a man to have a child is a miracle!
Again I have to rely on the doctor Luke. Being a very learnerd man he would make such a glaring error in his choice of words In my opinion. So Mary, no matter how you try to spin it had other children. How many times have you had sex with your wife? DO you actually expect Joseph to no have sexual relations with Mary after her time of purifucation after the birth of Jesus? Was Joseph a homosexual then in your way of thinking?

[classyT]

Fred,

I appreciate your post and explaining why you believe Mary was sinless before the Lord was born. But herein lies the problem, even IF she had never had so much as an impure thought... she was still doomed because of the fall of Adam.

Romans 5:12

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

If you are going by deduction, logic or what you feel or THINK is true concerning her... it makes sense that she was indeed a sinner... before Christ was born. She was a VIRGIN for sure but nevertheless a sinner. Because she was born in a fallen world with a sinful nature, the natural man/woman cannot HELP but sin because he is spirtually dead to the things of God. The Bible says we were ENEMIES. I'm not suggesting she was a horrible, vile, wicked sinner but even if it was as small as disobeying a parent or thinking something she shouldn't have.
I DO believe she was highly favored and had an awesome, unbelievable privilege to give birth to GOD as a man. I mean come on... pretty cool.

Also, if you are going by LOGIC I agree with Don, Joseph married her and he was a man... what makes MOST sense deducting naturally is he had sex with her AFTER the birth of the Lord Jesus.

Having said all the above, I don't go by feelings, deductions, what seems more right or natural. For ME, I only go by the Bible and what it has to say. And I believe it is clear on the topic of Mary. She was a sinner, she too needed a savior. Also she had sons after the Lord was born... James and Jude are recorded. I know that is hard for Catholics to swallow... :)

I already understand I'm not changing anyone's mind on this topic. Just wanted to express why I believe what I do.

On a personal note... I am so sorry about your son. I cannot imagine what losing a child is like and I don't want to. I adore my boys... what heartache you had to endure. I'm sure the Lord has taught you much concerning his love. There is always a purpose for everything that happens to us. Hopefully we can agree on at least that much. :)

one last thing... I agree with you on the following... True believers in the Lord Jesus should unite despite their differences. What an awesome thing that would be for the unbelieving world to see. The POWER the church COULD have is amazing. I believe it is the reason Satan keeps such arguments going. ( and we know he is behind division) That is my take.

[classyT]

Jesushelper,

Ha ha... good! I love it when christians see it MY way... the RIGHT way... ;)

Kidding everyone!

[classyT]

Then you didn't read this:https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christ...ml#post2276813

JoeT

Grumpy Joe T,

sighing... ok... here we go... I"m going to give you a verse out of the Bible ( the 66 books I always refer to) and then YOU give me verse proving me wrong. ( must be out of the same book )

For ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. Romans 3:

AND just for grins... Romans 5:12

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--

All means All!

Do your best work grumpy JoeT... :)

[JoeT777]

Grumpy Joe T,

sighing....ok....here we go...I"m gonna give you a verse out of the Bible ( the 66 books i always refer to) and then YOU give me verse proving me wrong. ( must be out of the exact same book )

For ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. Romans 3:

AND just for grins....Romans 5:12

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--

All means All!

Do your best work grumpy JoeT....:)

Does All means All? Except, of course we are talking about verse 14. Then all isn't all?

What do we make of the seeming contradiction made in verse 14 of Romans 5?

“But death reigned from Adam unto Moses, even over them also who have not sinned, after the similitude of the transgression of Adam, who is a figure of him who was to come.” Who are those that "have not sinned"?

In all fairness there is really no contradiction, vers. 12 speaks to original sin and vers 14 speaks to personal sin.

Neither speak to the singular grace given to Mary, the shielding or removing the stain of original sin.

JoeT

[Wondergirl]

Neither speak to the singular grace given to Mary, the shielding or removing the stain of original sin.

That's RCC doctrine, not Biblical. If it were true, something that significant would have been clearly mentioned in the Bible by the Gospel writers as well as by St. Paul in his epistles.

[JoeT777]

That's RCC doctrine, not Biblical. If it were true, something that significant would have been clearly mentioned in the Bible by the Gospel writers as well as by St. Paul in his epistles.

That's easy enough to say, how so is it not biblical?

JoeT

[Wondergirl]

That's easy enough to say, how so is it not biblical?

How about this? -- there's no mention in the Bible about it.

[JoeT777]

These do not prove your point that firstborn = only son. If anything, they prove mine.

The online Merriam-Webster dictionary says --

Main Entry: first·born
Pronunciation: \ˈfərs(t)-ˈbȯrn\
Function: adjective
Date: 14th century

: first brought forth : eldest

Main Entry: on·ly
Pronunciation: \ˈōn-lē\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English ānlīc, from ān one — more at one
Date: before 12th century

1 : unquestionably the best : peerless
2 a : alone in a class or category : sole <the only one left> <the only known species> b : having no brother or sister <an only child>
3 : few <one of the only areas not yet explored>

Oh good grief, Charlie Brown. I wasn’t trying to prove ‘firstborn = only son.’ I was trying to show that the firstborn held a ‘special’ place next to the patriarch in the family. More so in biblical times then today, the male head of the family ruled over the family, which usually included several generations. It was the responsibility of the firstborn of the patriarch to take over or stand in when he was gone. Also, there is, as it were, a ‘position’ in the family and a special relationship between God and the firstborn of Israel. As I tried to explain earlier, the position of ‘firstborn’ could also be the ‘only born’.

JoeT

[arcura]

450donn, It is obvious that you do not understand that my son was my first born.
I could have had others or not. It make no difference...
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Wondergirl]

I wasn’t trying to prove ‘firstborn = only son.’ I was trying to show that the firstborn held a ‘special’ place next to the patriarch in the family.

Oh, silly, silly me! How could I have misunderstood? I'll have to really stretch my imagination next time.

[Wondergirl]

What about Joseph? Did Mary disrespect him and her marriage so much that she wandered around with her son and wasn't at home to care for her hard-working husband like a dutiful Jewish wife was supposed to do? Who made Joseph's meals and washed his clothing? Who baked treats for him and plumped his pillow before he went to bed at night? And the poor guy didn't get any sex either?

Remember, this was a man's world and very strict as to marital obligations. It's easy for us in 2010 to think Mary was free to follow Jesus, but had she done so, she would have been castigated by Gospel writers. Even the beloved Mary and Martha were homebodies. Jesus visited them, not that they hung out with Jesus and the disciples. Who was the groupie? Mary Magdalene -- and a few other women. What was their role? We don't know exactly. Some have suggested prostitutes, and even that Mary M. was Jesus' mistress or wife.

[450donn]

Fred,
In post #28 you stated the fact.
"Wondergirl,
I had a first barn son named Shem.
He was my ONLY son and he died of Reyes' Syndrome at the age of 12."
So were you lying in that post, or did you have only ONE child?
Yes, IT DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE. And therein lies the problem of having any discussions with you. You simply refuse to accept the definitions that the rest of us accept. And In my opinion it is because you have been indwelled by the teachings of Catholic Church. I am glad that you are so staunch about your teachings. However I am also saddened at the same time that you refuse to listen to logic and common sense and instead keep to the teachings of man and not the teachings of God!