[NeedKarma]

I agree with that. Any fanatical group that does the stuff you highlighted in red fits the definition. And it follows that any group that has teachings that does not do that is not a cult.

[sndbay]

I thought you were going to stick to scripture? Now I believe that Scripture is Holy and inspired by God. That's why I try very hard to be factual when using 'the Word of God'. When I checked , I could only find one verse that spoke of the Word of God that implied that we should follow. But, it doesn't say follow the 'Word of God'. It says to follow faith taught by our prelates. Prelates are bishops, archbishops, etc. This would imply to follow 'Church'.

Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you; whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation (Hebrews 13:7)

JoeT

Consider the end of their conversation. Why ? Because the Word of God in that chapter and verse goes on to say, Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today and forever.

This is why if anyone is being carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is good thing that the heart be established with grace. Grace is Christ Jesus, Grace is the Love of God. Again and again the scriptures tell us what Peter himself confessed. YES LORD I love you!! GRACE (Hebrews 13:9)

Hebrew 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

So indeed remember their conversation, because Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Hebrew 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

This is exactly why the doctrine of Jesus Christ will always be the same. We follow Christ Jesus, we hear HIS voice. Because we live by every Word that proceedeth from the mouth of GOD !(Matthew 4:4)


NOW Joe, are you telling me I am wrong in what I believe? I follow Christ Jesus, I hear HIS Voice, I love the Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus! I trust in HIS promise of the NEW COVENANT. I am begotten again in CHRIST JESUS. And I am keep by the power of God through ONE FAITH.

1 Peter 1:3-4-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

This is not a faith that rest in a denomination or in the RRC. My ONE FAITH REST in CHRIST JESUS.

~in Christ

[sndbay]

sndbay

Good work. May God Bless you. Keep up the good work

God has blessed me, and I pray everyday that I can be all HE created me to be, with HIS hand of power doing HIS will.

I fully understand also that those that do not see, and do not hear HIS voice, and do not believe in HIS worthiness to set us free from sin are beguiled by satan.

Jesus said to the Jew, the leaders known as the Pharisees, and Scribes
John 8: 23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Those that follow Christ, are begotten again in the Christ Jesus and are Sanctify with the Holy Spirit
John 17:15-16-17 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

God grace be with you
~in Christ

[NeedKarma]

I fully understand also that those that do not see, and do not hear HIS voice, and do not believe in HIS worthiness to set us free from sin are beguiled by satan

I don't hear his voice so I guess...

:)

[sndbay]

I don't hear his voice so I guess....

:)

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

[arcura]

450donn,
Yes I do think that some of the over 30,000 denominations are dangerous cults, BUT they are listed as Christian Denominations.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[450donn]

OK Fred, you opened the door. How about naming a few for us less enlightened ones.

[JoeT777]

Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation, Jesus Christ, yesterday, and today: and the same forever. Be not led away with various and strange doctrines. For it is best that the heart be established with grace, not with meats: which have not profited those that walk in them.

This is why if anyone is being carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is good thing that the heart be established with grace. Grace is Christ Jesus, Grace is the Love of God. Again and again the scriptures tell us what Peter himself confessed. YES LORD I love you!! GRACE (Hebrews 13:9)

You’re absolutely correct in your assessment, it is a grace given through the Church, a all inclusive fullness of the heart.

The contention is that the grace given here is salvific grace, presumably from avoiding divers and strange doctrines. Not quite right. You would be more right to consider that “the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he may hold the primacy: Because in him, it has well pleased the Father that all fullness should dwell” (Col 1:18-19). As you’ve stated many times all graces come from God. The firstborn from the dead, Christ is that body referred to here, that is Mystical Body of Christ, i.e. the Church. Christ “is firstborn from the dead, and who holds primacy pleases the Father,’ then so too would be “His Mystical Body please the Father in all fullness. All the things received by Christ are given to the Church.” (Cf. John 16:15). Now fullness can describe many things, fullness of grace, fullness in God’s glory, fullness in God’s hope, fullness of faith, etc. But, this is the DADDY of all FULLNESSes this is a DIVINE FULLNESS. This thing that might rightly be called, ‘All-fullness’ is given to Christ which in turn is given the Church. So too, “And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.” (John 1:1). By the proclamation of made in the Gospel of John 16:15 this grace would be added to the cornucopia of All-Fullness. Add that this too was prophetic, “He prepared them bread in the first place unto fullness: for the sacrifices also of the Lord they shall eat, which he gave to him, and to his seed.“ (Sirach 45:26). Consequently, we can see why in the Paul’s Epistle, it is best that we walk in this All-Fullness because “it is best that the heart be established with grace, not with meats: which have not profited those that walk in them.” Where do we get ‘All-Fullness’? Did you miss it? It is in the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, i.e. the Roman Catholic Church. The Church is in Christ, and Christ is in the Church, a dichotomy similar to the Eucharist; it’s the Real Presence of Christ that consumes us as we consume it bite by bite.


JoeT

[arcura]

450donn,
I would, but I don't know them all. Just those that have been in the news such as Heaven's Gate, Jonesburrow, The group in Europe which killed themselves (I've forgotten the name).
Also the Asian group whose name translates to "Jesus died for us so we die for him". The leaders do the killing of the followers after the followers donate all their possessions to the group.
There are more but over the years I've forgotten many names.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[inhisservice]

JoeT777

When I checked , I could only find one verse that spoke of the Word of God that implied that we should follow. But, it doesn’t say follow the ‘Word of God’. It says to follow faith taught by our prelates. Prelates are bishops, archbishops, etc. This would imply to follow ‘Church’.

First of all there are verses that do indicate that we need to follow the word of God. For example this verse says it all:

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.


We need the Scriptures to live i.e. the Eternal Life.

The verse you quoted is right in saying that we should follow the faith of the "leaders". That would refer to the Apostles. You would find that they strictly stuck to the scriptures. Paul for one strictly followed the Old Testament and a familiarity with the OT will show that he has quoted extensively from it in his letters.

How do you say that the "prelates" are bishops, archbishops, etc?

Who are you refereeing to when you say, ‘the Christian of himself’? You lost me. What this verse teaches is clear; “will guide you into all truth…” is Christ telling the Apostles, that the Holy Ghost is promised to them and their successors, to teach and preserve unity and truth. See also John 14:26

You had said that "Non-Catholics must by their nature proclaim themselves (individually or collectively) supreme arbiter ". That non-catholic is a person I referred to as a Christian.

The Holy Spirit is not promised for a reserved few. It is promised for anyone who believes in Jesus Christ and accepts Him as his savior.

Are you saying that the New Testament was written by Apostles who reacted to God’s will robotically; if so, shouldn’t we be calling them ‘God-bots’ instead of Apostles? If the Gospel of St. Matthew appeared on his desk one day, literally written by the finger of God, shouldn’t we be about worshiping the Book?

The Apostles were Spirit led. That means that the Holy Spirit guided them in whatever (important) they did. In Acts you will find that the Holy Spirit tells Peter to go with Cornelius' men. Paul plans something but the Holy Spirit prevents him. So they were led by the Holy Spirit. So when they wrote the Holy Spirit worked in them. So yes the Scriptures are God breathed and should be given great reverence. But we obviously should not worship it be cause specifically taught us (quoting the OT) that we should worship only God. Interestingly Jesus himself quoted a lot from the Scriptures.

The authority to, as it were, infallibly rule is given to the Catholic Church.

That's a blind faith. Where is the evidence?

The full deposit of faith is was given the constituted Body of Christ;

True but is the RC the Body of Christ? That is the question.

This is a commission of The Twelve and is passed down to their successors.

Only the twelve? No. In fact all Jesus Christ commissioned all of us. Otherwise why was Paul, Appolos, Timothy, Titus etc. going around making disciples?

I wouldn’t either if I was a sola Scripturist, I would want to know who vouchsafes the very bible I have in my hand.

The Holy Spirit. He protects the Scriptures also. Though there are many versions of the Bible the internal message is not affected because of divine protection.

What happens when, amongst the sola people, a disagreement arises over what is meant in scripture, do you simple create a new ‘church’?

Unfortunately, sadly that is what many people do (create their own church). But proper unbiased study of the scripture would eliminate disagreement. I do not agree by such behavior.

[arcura]

inhisservice,
Scripture not only tells us how The Church was established it also tells that The Church is the pillar and foundation of The T.
Truth.
Therefore it is the Holy Apostolic Catholic Church that interprets holy Scripture correctly.
It was The Holy Spirit that inspired Scripture and the Catholic Church to promulgate that Scripture into the Holy Bible which the world can use.
Not only does Scripture tells who has the authority so does authentic history.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[450donn]

inhisservice,
Scripture not only tells us how The Church was established it also tells that The Church is the pillar and foundation of The T.
truth.
Therefore it is the Holy Apostolic Catholic Church that interprets holy Scripture correctly.
It was The Holy Spirit that inspired Scripture and the Catholic Church to promulgate that Scripture into the Holy Bible which the world can use.
Not only does Scripture tells who has the authority so does authentic history.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred, again if you are going to make such claims, back them up with scripture! Otherwise you claims become irrelevant.

[JoeT777]

Fred, again if you are going to make such claims, back them up with scripture! Otherwise you claims become irrelevant.

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth


House of God = Church

Church = Church

Living God = God

pillar = Church

Ground of Truth = Foundation = Peter = Church = Catholic

JoeT

[450donn]

Joe, since you choose to jump in and answer for Fred then please answer why Fred says this.
"Therefore it is the Holy Apostolic Catholic Church that interprets holy Scripture correctly." By this sort of statement you are stating flatly that all other forms of Christianity are not following the teachings in the Bible and therefore are not Christian.
There is NO reference to the RCC anywhere in scriptures. This is some notion that appears is being ingrained into followers of the pope. And I still cannot figure out where it comes from. Except maybe from some teachings NOT found in the bible.

[JoeT777]

Joe, since you choose to jump in and answer for Fred then please answer why Fred says this.
"Therefore it is the Holy Apostolic Catholic Church that interprets holy Scripture correctly." By this sort of statement you are stating flatly that all other forms of Christianity are not following the teachings in the Bible and therefore are not Christian.
There is NO reference to the RCC anywhere in scriptures. This is some notion that appears is being ingrained into followers of the pope. And I still cannot figure out where it comes from. Except maybe from some teachings NOT found in the bible.

I thought the difference between bloging and a forum was that in blog you make statements, controlling the length, content and theme. In a forum only the theme is controlled and, not withstanding etiquette, one is free to 'jump' in at any point, i.e. interact. I answered so that you would have the correct information; I can, if you wish, refrain from doing so.

The Church holds that you can interpret most all of scripture in any form so long as it is contextual, represents the intent of the writer and 'harmonizes' with all other Scripture, Tradition, councils, and Papal decrees. And, it assents to the Magisterial teachings. There are only 7 verses that I'm aware of that are 'doctrinally' defined. The notion going around is found in non-Catholics who think the Church 'brainwashes,' ingrains, or wise dictates what each verse means – the Church doesn't. Had it ever occurred to you that you get somewhat the same scriptural sense from all Catholics, because they are correct?

JoeT

[arcura]

450donn,
Joe has done a good job explaining and Scripture with providing.
I also did that some what in regard to The Church's authority to correctly interpret Scripture when I mentioned the bible say that The Church IS the pillar ans foundation of the truth. However I did not mention where in the bible that was as Joe did.
Being the pillar and foundation of the truth clearly indicates the Church can and does interpret Holt Scripture correctly, therefore the truth.
Joe explained how that was done, in context to all of scripture not selected bits and pieces as many others do.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[450donn]

So AGAIN you are claiming that the RCC is the only church and the rest of are heathens? Is that what I am hearing from you?
Therefore it is the Holy Apostolic Catholic Church that interprets holy Scripture correctly.
It was The Holy Spirit that inspired Scripture and the Catholic Church to promulgate that Scripture into the Holy Bible which the world can use.

I am really insulted by these sorts of comments.

[450donn]

Had it ever occurred to you that you get somewhat the same scriptural sense from all Catholics, because they are correct?

JoeT

No, it more occurs to me that you are getting the party line directly from one man.
Sorry, some of the stuff you are coming up with sounds more like you are a brainwashed member of a cult that a member of a church that is preaching/teaching the whole truth as found in the word of God!

[JoeT777]

So AGAIN you are claiming that the RCC is the only church and the rest of are heathens? Is that what I am hearing from you?

I never used the word heatherns or for that mater a dirogitory term. I don't claim the RCC is the only Church. She is the only Divinely constituted Church of Jesus Christ.

Therefore it is the Holy Apostolic Catholic Church that interprets holy Scripture correctly.
It was The Holy Spirit that inspired Scripture and the Catholic Church to promulgate that Scripture into the Holy Bible which the world can use.

And I got slammed for calling you brain washed!

This was a statement by Fred. In her doctrine, writings, and teachings the Roman Catholic Church is correct in her understanding of Scripture. Her Tradition produced Scripture as inspired by the Holy Spirit, and she protected Scripture from error for 2,000 years. Yes, Fred was correct.

If this answer doesn't please you, then just continue thinking I'm brainwashed, doesn't make me any difference. I've made it my business to know.

JoeT.

[JoeT777]

No, it more occurs to me that you are getting the party line directly from one man.
Sorry, some of the stuff you are coming up with sounds more like you are a brainwashed member of a cult that a member of a church that is preaching/teaching the whole truth as found in the word of God!

That's the point, the Catholic Church is teaching the revealed truth found in Scripture.


JoeT