[arcura]

sndbay,
I think Joe did a good job answering what you asked me.
I still believe what the bible says about you and me and others, we are all sinners.
Please tell us all, do you think or believe that you never sin?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

sndbay,
I think Joe did a good job answering what you asked me.
I still believe what the bible says about you and me and others, we are all sinners.
Please tell us all, do you think or believe that you never sin?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred, Do you realize what the Word of God says about willful sin. I suffer myself each day in this troubled world surrounded by sin. But I deny myself, and walk having the spirit, not walking after the lust of this world in sin. We that do walk in the spirit, hold a full awareness in faith that by God power we are kept in the light of righteousness, grace and truth.

Would you say the spirit could or would lead anyone to sin?

Scripture says we have liberty. Liberty to chose whether we follow Chist in righteousness and love for mankind, or satan in sin of the flesh.
We are warned in not taking that liberty to walk in lust of the flesh, but rather walk in love, a perfect law that serves as Christ did to the Father in glory and unto man on this earth. (Gal 5:13)

Review: (1 Peter 1:3 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time)

James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Go read of the strong meat in which Joe spoke of eating. (Hebrew 5:12-13-14)



~enlightened through the Spirit

No Fred,I am no longer a sinner but walk having the spirit. All glory unto God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

[JoeT777]

Fred, do you realize what the Word of God says about willful sin. I suffer myself each day in this troubled world surrounded by sin. But I deny myself, and walk having the spirit, not walking after the lust of this world in sin. We that do walk in the spirit, hold a full awareness in faith that by God power we are kept in the light of righteousness, grace and truth.

Being no holier than thou or probably no greater a sinner than you, I have a hard time understanding this. What it seems to be saying is that you would rather sin but you deny yourself a perceived benefit sin might offer. Although I walk in that same said world my view is different. It’s been my experience that not sinning a gain of certain freedoms, and conversely sinning is to lose a certain freedoms. Thus the more temptations I turn away from the freer my actions and thoughts become, i.e. I gain - and we call this merit.

To walk in the spirit translates to my way of thinking as being holy. Holiness seems to have scale. That is, we can be a little bit holy or we can be a lot holy, i.e. saintly. Obviously the better of the two states is to be saintly. We that walk in the spirit (or in holiness) are not assured righteousness or grace or truth, rather we merit holiness – God’s returning love, which is a grace that builds on itself. And we merit it the same way as when you try to please your pop, who in return would compliment with a heartfelt pat on the head returning your obedient love. What chains us to our obedience or discipline of faith is our love of God, we shoulder these chains willingly with gusto – these chains lift us up. This is best understood as the same obedience of love the bride has for the groom, she submits to the demands of groom for no other reason but her love. Conversely, your way would be to suggest that obedience or discipline of faith uses fear to chain us to God; the bride now becomes a slave girl submitting out of fear of stripes. Boy, your God is hard.

I thought we had a One-ness of faith by just simply believing in the book?


JoeT

[galveston]

What about "unity"?

The unity spoken of by Paul was not visible unity, but one of the Spirit. Basically that we should all teach the same doctrine.

I read with interest your account of the charismatic movement within the Catholic Church. And you are right, everything must conform to the written Word of God, or Satan just might inject some of his own teaching into the mix.

I notice that in all of your appeals for unity, the only way that can be achieved is for the rest of us to accept the Pope as the undisputed leader of all Christendom.

There is never any indication that your side will give an inch.

Of course, those who believe as I do will never accept many of the Catholic dogmas. They are extra-Biblical and therefore false, in our eyes.

Now, if you will just give those ideas up, we may be able to move toward unity. (Hey, why should we do all the giving up?)

[JoeT777]

What about "unity"?

The unity spoken of by Paul was not visible unity, but one of the Spirit. Basically that we should all teach the same doctrine.

Catholics believe that there is one body (a mystical body of Christ), one Church. As an adult is to be baptized is a doorway into that Church with a unity of faith:

1 Cor 12:13 For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free: and in one Spirit we have all been made to drink. ...

Paul was no slacker when it came to a unity of faith, a unity of spirit, i.e. Church. John however tells of Christ’s beckoning to unity, not only for the Twelve and other disciples but for all the faithful:

And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me. That they all may be one, as you, Father, in me, and I in you; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that you have sent me. And the glory which you have given me, I have given to them: that, they may be one, as we also are one. I in them, and you in me: that they may be made perfect in one: and the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them, as you have also loved me. Father, I will that where I am, they also whom you have given me may be with me: that they may see my glory which you have given me, because you have loved me before the creation of the world. Just Father, the world has not known you: but I have known you. And these have known that you have sent me. And I have made known your name to them and will make it known: that the love wherewith you have loved me may be in them, and I in them. (John 17:20 seqq.)

I notice that in all of your appeals for unity, the only way that can be achieved is for the rest of us to accept the Pope as the undisputed leader of all Christendom. There is never any indication that your side will give an inch.

We believe that the fullness of faith resides in the Church. So to answer your question directly, yes unity in its fullest can only be realized in the Catholic Church.

Can’t give an inch, or a foot, or a yard, or a mile of something that’s not ours; that is to say, the Church is Christ’s Kingdom, not ours.

Of course, those who believe as I do will never accept many of the Catholic dogmas. They are extra-Biblical and therefore false, in our eyes.

Ok, but I don’t recall asking you to, though the door is always open. But either way, her doctrine are neither extra biblical nor false. I can’t help you with your vision, you might try glasses – worked wonders for me.

JoeT

[arcura]

sndbay,
That IS interesting.
I know of no person other than Jesus Christ whom did not and does not sin.
Now you come along and claim that you do not commit any sin.
Pardon me but I do not believe you.
The bible says that we all are sinners.
I believe the bible.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

[sndbay]

To walk in the spirit translates to my way of thinking as being holy. Holiness seems to have scale. That is, we can be a little bit holy or we can be a lot holy, i.e. saintly.
JoeT

Obvious by your thoughts, putting on the new man as written in Eph 4:24 is a perhaps choice, if the scale would stay balanced.

The parable written by Luke, and spoken by Christ tells a different story and is one of truth.

This example the new man, but some are blinded to the understanding of parables.

Luke 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish

Notice there is no scale in this concept of newly made being capable to survive with old. The old man is the same concept, he can not please God and that is why we suffer in obedience and love to walk having the spirit to put on the new man.

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

And as scripture indicates man does not desire to suffer himself in walking without sinning(having the spirit of truth and grace), yet Christ told us to follow HIM, follow HIS footsteps that includes in righteousness, and love.

I assure everyone loving Christ is easy, and done above all things.

~in Christ

[sndbay]

Catholics believe that there is one body (a mystical body of Christ), one Church. As an adult is to be baptized is a doorway into that Church with a unity of faith:

1 Cor 12:13 For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free: and in one Spirit we have all been made to drink. ...

Joe you obviously cut off the one drink( into One Spirit )

1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Is it because you also realize that scripture says that the One Spirit is the spiritual drink that is the Rock Christ Jesus

That would put the idea that the Catholic religion believe they drink of their spiritual rock Peter/Pope.

And scripture says when we are baptized we are buried with Christ
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Instead you believe baptism is a doorway into the Catholic fellowship, and unity in drinking the spiritual rock Peter/Pope.

[sndbay]

sndbay,
That IS interesting.
I know of no person other than Jesus Christ whom did not and does not sin.
Now you come along and claim that you do not commit any sin.
Pardon me but I do not believe you.
The bible says that we all are sinners.
I believe the bible.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

No the scriptures say we were once cursed and doomed by death in sin.

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

You have of your own free will, chosen to obey satan in sin when you obey the flesh.

And we were once cursed, but Christ set us free. What Adam and Eve once did in the garden was changed.

James 1:5 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

I have told you before, we as children of God can not eat at the table of satan and also then expect to eat at the Lord's table.

1 Corthinians 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

[sndbay]

sndbay,
Now you come along and claim that you do not commit any sin.
Pardon me but I do not believe you.

Fred.

You would rather that I would be a child of satan's?


No thanks Fred, I will speak in the spirit of truth and grace.
[B]1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I am begotten again in Christ! (born of God)adopted as a child of God.

Do you really believe scripture lies to us? Whoever is born of God can not sin! let no man deceive you (1 John3:7)

[galveston]

Re: Unitiy.

I am not questioning any man's testimony. If you say you are saved, I have no right to say you are not.

Now, Joe, Fred, Sndbay, and myself all say we are saved.

Being saved makes us a part of the Mystical Body of Christ.

Baptism into ANY church cannot do that because the Bible tells us that baptism is the answer of a good conscience, and you cannot have a good conscience toward God unless you are saved already.

So you see that we already have that unity that Jesus prayed for.

Do you really think ALL Catholics, or whatever denomination are saved?

Not so!

If you admit to that truth, then you have to admit that baptism into your church does NOT save, otherwise everyone baptised into it are saved.

I am trying to show you that as a believer, you are living far below what Jesus provided for His followers.

Why don't youi check it out with Him with an open heart and mind?

What have you got to lose?

[arcura]

sndbay,
First of all you are like many. You DO NOT understand the Catholic faith.
We drink and eat Jesus Christ not the pope or anyone else.
Jesus said "This IS my blood" --- "this Is my flesh"---My blood is drink indeed"---"My flesh is food indeed" ----
"Those who eat may flesh and drink my blood I WILL raise them up on the last day"
No you are wrong about that also the bible does say that no one is sinless, "NO NOT ONE"
That includes you and me.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Maggie 3]

How can we rightly comprehend God's truth? His goal is that we desire
To comprehend and fully understand His truth. God has given to all
Believers a divine Person who helps us to receive and understand the
Truth. The Holy Spirit, who perfectly knows the mind of God (1 Cor.2
:10) and who receives and communicates to our spirit, the truth God
Wants our understanding to grow in. He wants us to grasp His majesty,
His holiness, His power, His love, His grace, and His joy. When we begin
To comperhend these mighty truths about the person of God, we find
Our lives enriched, enabled, and energized. Our ultimate aim in life
Must be to know Christ Jesus. God wants us to know our position and
Who we are in Christ. Since we are one with Christ, all His divine privileges become ours. His righteousness is ours because He
Abides in us. His wisdom and His sanctification we can now accept .

Love and blessings, Maggie 3

[JoeT777]

Being saved makes us a part of the Mystical Body of Christ. Baptism into ANY church cannot do that because the Bible tells us that baptism is the answer of a good conscience, and you cannot have a good conscience toward God unless you are saved already.

Somehow you've gotten the wrong impression. Catholics hold that the Mystical Body of Christ is the Church, it includes the lay, priests, bishops, and Pope. The population consists of those baptized, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit; both sinners and the holy are included. This is only the beginning of an individual's journey; it doesn't offer any assurance of being 'saved'. That type of theology is Luther's, not Christ's.

So you see that we already have that unity that Jesus prayed for.

No, I'm afraid I don't see. The call for unity isn't the simple call to say 'Lord, Lord'. Many make that call, not all are 'saved'

Do you really think ALL Catholics, or whatever denomination are saved? If you admit to that truth, then you have to admit that baptism into your church does NOT save, otherwise everyone baptized into it are saved.

Again, Catholics or Protestants, or Evangelist, or those who cry 'Lord, Lord' are [not] given assurance of being saved, baptized or otherwise. I hold, as do Catholics that we are to cooperate with the salvific graces given us all, these include the sacraments of the Church. Thus, we strive for holiness in our lives. To some it comes early and easy, to others it comes hard and late in life – sometimes so late as to be on the deathbed.

To me, to be 'saved' in the Protestant sense that is receiving an absolute assurance of salvation and that sin no longer merits judgment received by the ritual of 'walking the isle' seems meaningless. It's kind of like the man who refuses to work, has never worked, and will never work yet demands entitlement to subsistence from the government. Catholics work for their sustenance in faith in cooperation with the same graces given all. We persevere with fear and trembling to work out our salvation. (Cf. Phil 2:12)

I am trying to show you that as a believer, you are living far below what Jesus provided for His followers. Why don't you check it out with Him with an open heart and mind? What have you got to lose?

Good grief! What do I have to lose? Only my soul!

If you see that as being close-minded, then so be it. I can suffer a little 'close-mindedness' in this life to benefit the next.

Look, the way I envision the situation is that you and I spiritually reside on two different ships of faith sailing on the high seas of life. My boat rides high above the water powered by the great engine of the Holy Spirit, has a captain, first mate, helmsman, crew and passengers. Under sail everybody has his place and duty; discipline and order abounds for the good of all aboard. The captain orders the direction, when to batten down the hatches, and when to tack against the wind. Real bread and meat is served at every meal, washed down with a heady spiritual wine. Our mission is to cast out nets and haul in fish. It seems the more that we bring on board the larger the ship becomes, so it's quite roomy. Passage is free as longe as you are disciplined enough to follow the captain's lead.

Your boat by comparison seems to ride low in the water, with water topping gunwale, powered by the occupants paddling with their feet, there seems to be as much water in the boat as outside, everybody on board is the captain, nobody is crew, there doesn't seem to be a helm, and most of the passengers have drowned below decks, direction is happenstance based on how many are paddling on the port side versus the starboard side at any given moment, and order is the state of mind. Spiritual meals are symbols with deferred nourishment based on empty promises washed down with Cool Aid.

Gee thanks, I'll pass.

JoeT

[arcura]

JoeT,
I agree.
There is NO biblical absolute assurance of salvation.
Luther was wrong about that as are those who follow his misguided teaching.
There is thew biblical HOPE OF SALVATION which is an expectation of salvation.
I expect to be saved as do many but only the final judge can tell us whether we are saved or not.
Faith which is a work and any other works are refined to be pure for those who are saved or to be saved. That is after we pass from this mortal realm.
In the mean time it is our job to do as much pre-refining of our souls as possible.
But being imperfect humans we can not do a perfect job of that, but we MUST try for that is what proves our faith.
Luther wanted to leave the book of James out of the bible for it taught other than what Luther tried to teach and of that what far to many still wrongly believe.
Of that, it is one of the reasons Jesus establish HIS Church.
That is to help guide us in these later days after His resurrection for the correct interpretation of His words and those of His apostles.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

JoeT,
I agree.
There is NO biblical absolute assurance of salvation.

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

There is thew biblical HOPE OF SALVATION which is an expectation of salvation.

Our One Hope is Christ Jesus. Do you find HIM in worthiness to save us?

The reason why a person might not feel they are saved is because they desire the way of sin that keeps them walking in darkness. The lust of the flesh that belongs to the old man that can't please God.

It is written instead that in love and obedience, the good conscience toward God, and the circumcised heart, does bring us as one with Christ Jesus and the Father in Heaven. We rest in Christ Jesus through One Faith. The confessed love and belief in the begotten Son of God. We are raised in baptism from being buried with Christ, as He was raised from the dead. People that sin remain dead, doomed and unable to be one with Christ. Sin is death.

Hebrew 6:11-12 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Hebrews 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

But being imperfect humans we can not do a perfect job of that, but we MUST try for that is what proves our faith.

James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of HIM that created him

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Concluded Truth

2 Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


~in Christ

[sndbay]

Realize what happen on the cross to the old man that couldn't please God.

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Scripture is spoken in Truth, and if you are not dead with Christ on the cross, then it is because you do not believe sin was destroyed in you, and you choose to cintinue serving sin.

[sndbay]

.

Now, Joe, Fred, Sndbay, and myself all say we are saved.

I believe in the Spirit of Truth, and what was inspired through the Holy Spirit to be written " The Word of God which is the flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ"

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

John 10:27-28 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow ME: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

~Rest in Christ

[arcura]

sndbay
Keep it up all that you want to, but there is no absolute biblical assurance of salvation.
Only God on judgment day can provide that.
We are all sinners. ALL OF US.
And that must be dealt with.
Jesus took punishment for our sinfulness to the cross and grave IF we do all as told in the Gospels.
Do you know anyone who has done that fully and completely?
I know some who have tried, but I do not know for sure if they succeeded.
ONLY God knows.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[gromitt82]

Dear Fred,
I am copying a text by Fritz Tuttle, a Catholic Teologian
Jesus Christ Established a Visible Church On Earth

Every Christian believes that Jesus Christ established and sustains a community of faith, hope and love for all believers. This community we call His Church. The Church that Christ founded is the Catholic Church which has a formal earthly structure established by Christ and which continues under His authority and protection.

In the Old Testament we see God's continual involvement in the lives of the Israelites through appointed prophets. God delivered, instructed and admonished the Israelites. He made His motions in a visible, specific and formal way. He always did so through human hands, mouths, feet, minds and wills. God established a law and a means for executing it.

In concert with His redemptive act, Jesus did three things that established the framework of His Church. First, He chose humans to carry out His work. He appointed Peter to be the visible head of the Church. Jesus said to Peter, "You are Rock and on this rock I will build my Church." (Matthew 16: 18) Jesus said "build," as in to create a structure. Jesus built His structure on specifically chosen human beings Peter and the apostles.

Second, Jesus gave Peter and the apostles the power and authority to carry out His work. "Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven."(Matthew 16:19; 18:18) "Receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven, whose sins you retain, they are retained."(John 20:23)

Third, Jesus gave Peter and the apostles commands as to what that work should be. At the last supper, He commanded, "Do this in memory of Me." (Luke 22:19) He commanded them to "Make disciples of all nations" (Matthew 28:19), and to "Go into the whole world and proclaim the Gospel to every creature." (Mark 16:15)

The early Church was structured in a hierarchical manner as it is today. We see in Acts, chapter 15 how the apostles and the elders came together under the leadership of St. Peter to decide the question of what was required of Gentiles. We also see how St. Peter was regarded as the head of the Church when St. Paul, "Went up to Jerusalem to confer with Kephas [Peter] and remained with him fifteen days." (Galatians 1:18) There is no Scriptural evidence of independent local churches.

The Catholic Church is the only church that can claim to have been founded by Christ personally. Every other church traces its lineage back to a mere human person such as Martin Luther or John Wesley. The Catholic Church can trace its lineage back to Jesus Christ who appointed St. Peter as the first pope. This line of popes has continued unbroken for almost 2,000 years.

God rules, instructs and sanctifies His people through His Church. Under her teaching office, the Catholic Church preserves the Word of God. She is the custodian, keeper, dispenser and interpreter of teachings of Christ. And she accomplishes this under the protection of the Holy Spirit.
I do not know whether this is the right answer you are looking for.
Incidentally, would you send me a mail. I've been sending you mails to your address which have been returtned to me. Thanks. Gromitt82