[JoeT777]

Interesting!

Joe contends that the Word of God is immutable (look up the meaning) and then says that the word of a man (the Pope) can alter or supercede it.

Which is it?

This was a pretty cheap shot, primarily because your statement is false on any level you'd like to consider it. Does this mean you can't debate on the merits of your case? Or is it that you would rather look to ad Hominem comments to detract from your weak claims.

JoeT

[JoeT777]

All:



The faithful in Christ know that apostolic teachings are important, as faith is believing in something yet unseen. Thus the intellect must know of the existence of the true Christ, His Messianic ministry, and His teachings before faith can work. Thus the Apostles were told to go and baptize and teach to all nations. In this regard do Catholics conform their beliefs to the God's Truth. Thus when I say “I have the right to believe anything in the bible that does not conflict with the Magisterium,” I'm placing my trust in God Truths and those infallible Christ given axiomatic Truths. Truth is immutable. If it is Truth for Peter, its Truth for us today, and it will be Truth tomorrow, it can't be destroyed regardless of how distorted non-Catholics present it. If you ever wanted to use the precepts of Solo Scriptura as the rule of faith , the only way to achieve a true understanding of Scripture, you need these eight individual principles, Scripture, Tradition, the Church, Councils, the Fathers, the Pope, miracles, and natural reasoning.

I've said it before, and I'll keep right on saying it, while I am allowed to have private interpretations, my faithful duty is to conform, or better still reform, those interpretations to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. Faithfull Christians of any stripe have this obligation to Christ. Furthermore, as one of the faithful, it is my obligation “to strive so that the divine message of salvation may be known and accepted by all people throughout the world.” When in good conscience I can't conform, I remain silent until, as you say, I see the light. With prayer, perseverance and God's good graces I will conform heart and mind to the Magisterium – that infallible teaching arm of Christ.

In trusting my eternal soul to the Catholic Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, the Kingdom of God I am trusting in God's promise to Moses of a Kingdom that not only continues the eternal Seat of Moses, but that of her authority.

The Old Testament tells us of the coming of the Kingdom in the Messianic age. The Kingdom is meant for the sanctification of the twelve tribes as well as the Gentiles. Even kings are to serve and obey (Psalm 21:28 sq.; 2:7-12; 116:1; Zechariah 9:10). It's clear that a universal faith and common worship is implied, “And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be prepared in the top of the mountains, and high above the hills: and people shall flow to it. And many nations shall come in haste, and say: Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob: and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth out of Sion, and the word of the Lord out of Jerusalem.” (Micah 4:1-2) A unified worship, One worship under the authority who teaches and keeps the Divine Truth for all; “And it shall come to pass in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem: half of them to the east sea, and half of them to the last sea: they shall be in summer and in winter. And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day there shall be one Lord, and his name shall be one. “(Zechariah 14:8)

Prophecies in the Old Testament tell of a future Kingdom holding the authority in the rule of the Messiah; Psalms 2 and 71; Isaiah 9:6 sq. We see that authority in the shepherd that leads his sheep between the fields of Divine Truth (Ezekiel 34:23; 37:24-28).

Taking the seat of Moses, Christ is the High Priest of the Kingdom of God, “The Lord hath sworn, and he will not repent: Thou art a priest for ever according to the order of Melchisedech.” (Psalm 109:4) And that priesthood is institutionalized in the Kingdom, “For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts” (Malachi 1:11). The priesthood in this Messianic Kingdom is a continuation of the priesthood in the Old Testament with continued sacrificial offerings; “Thus saith the Lord: if my covenant, with the day can be made void, and my covenant with the night, that there should not be day and night in their season" (Jeremiah 33:20)

The importance of “God's Kingdom” is that it is a direct connection with the Divine by which we are “ruled” by our faith and love of God. I like to make that connection this way:

The Roman Catholic holds that both Scripture and tradition must be a harmonious foundation for the rule of faith to be infallible. Consequently, this makes what we call Apostolic tradition which is usually found in the form of papal and council decrees. It is the only legitimate and infallible interpreter of the Bible.

On the other hand, we have a view (primarily Protestant) that canonical Scripture are the only infallible basis for the rule of faith . Each individual holding the principle of Sola Scriptura asserts the right to interpret the Scripture. Most Protestants form distinct groups of likeminded sole arbitrators of the rule of faith , i.e. Lutheran, Calvinist, Methodist, etc. Since each individual has the same rights to authenticate what the Scriptures represent then there are as many different rules of faith as there are Protestant denominations; for that matter hypothetically we could end up with as many denominations as there are Protestants (Since the number of Protestants faiths are increasing exponentially it won't be long before we reach this asymptotic state). Only one can represent an absolute truth; which is infallibly correct and which isn't? Which has Christ's Authority, and which doesn't?

We see that Protestantism isn't 'one' faith and can never be 'one' given that each is the arbitrator of his own faith. As you may recall Christ prayed, “And now I am not in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name whom thou hast given me: that they may be one, as we also are.” (John 17:11). This is the Tradition guarded, kept, and taught, ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, AND APOSTOLIC FAITH.

We take God's Word as being immutable. God's promises Moses a Kingdom and nowhere do we find a verse that terminates the Kingdom of God. Moses is told, “If therefore you will hear my voice, and keep my covenant, you shall be my peculiar possession above all people: for all the earth is mine. And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom, and a holy nation.” (Ex.19: 5, 6), which is the Old Testament equivalent of Matt 16:18. The promise made to Moses is an integral part of the Old Testament. The Jewish Kingdom was both a spiritual and temporal Kingdom of God with a priestly hierarchy (the Jews were to be governed by their priests), where the presence of God was veiled. The difference being that the mosses' sacrifice was given up to be consumed by God conversely Christ is sacrificed at the altar continually every day to consume use, bite by bite. (Cf. Tractates on the Gospel of John, CHAPTER 26,) newadvent.org/fathers/1701026.htm

Christ didn't overturn this Kingdom by creating a new one; in fact He couldn't because His ministry was the fulfillment of the Old Covenant, which included the Messianic Kingdom along with the prophecies for a new King. To overthrow this Kingdom would have been to overthrow himself – which of course is nonsense. However what Christ was to do was to turn over the 'Key' of the Kingdom to a new tenant, what is today the gentile Kingdom we call the Roman Catholic Church. Which is the reason that in Matthew, we hear Christ say, “I say to you [the Pharisees] that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and shall be given to a nation yielding the fruits thereof.” This too is a pronouncement of on Mt. Sinai. It's here we see Christ conquering the world in the Messianic vision of David; but instead of today's “nation building” it is called Christ's “Kingdom” building.

Where is the Church and the authority in scripture? The precepts and doctrine are obeyed out of obedient love for the Church; we do it willingly, like a new bride obeys her husband. I've read more than a few books in my life; except for one, in the context of 'Church', not a single one returned my love for them and promised Hope of redemption. The Church is constituted for the redemption of the faithful. Its claim as the Messianic Kingdom is the envy of the world. As a consequence it is always under attack by the 'dark side'.

At the synagogue at Nazareth,”And he began to say to them: This day is fulfilled this scripture in your ears.” (Luke 4:21) Christ lays claim to His prophecy as Messianic King, in person, in his 'real presence'. If you will read your book, you'll see that Christ claims his universal Kingship in the New Solomon. “And behold more than Solomon here. The men of Ninive shall rise in the judgment with this generation and shall condemn it; Because they did penance at the preaching of Jonas. And behold more than Jonas here.” (Luke 11:31); THE KING IS HERE is the proclamation, one greater than the Temple. (Matt 12:6). Lord over the Sabbath (Luke 6:5). The personification of Elias (Mat 12:6), He requires our faith based on His Divinity (John 6:29), “29 Jesus answered and said to them: "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." To glorify the Father he created a in their midst, the Law and the Prophets had been, He said, but a preparation (Luke 16:16; cf. Matthew 4:23; 9:35; 13:17; 21:43; 24:14; Mark 1:14; Luke 4:43; 8:1; 9:2, 60; 18:17).

The Church is absolutely necessary for redemption; this is explicit in baptism in particular and the other sacraments by extension, ministering to the faithful. A corporate family of adopted 'sons of God' we are redeemed through the graces given freely. "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: he that believeth not shall be condemned" (Mark 16:16).

The body is animated by the soul, so is the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ animated by its soul the Holy Spirit. The third century St. Origen (185-232) who once said “Let no man deceive himself. Outside this house, i.e. outside the Church, none is saved" was eqully unyielding concerning Apostolic teachings, warning that Holy Scripture should not be interpreted based on our own judgment, instead said interpretation should be "on the rule of the Church instituted by Christ".

Yes, I do place my faith in the Catholic Church, particularly what you call the Roman Catholic Church. I receive in return a direct connection with the Divine, a guide and rule over my faith, along with the administrations of sacraments Christ ordained for His Kingdom of redemption.



JoeT

[sndbay]

Then the devil made me do it? Why am I promised discipline for failing when the devil did it?

Are you a child and think like a child? It is in scripture teaching.
1 Corinthians 13:11-12-13 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.


Are you unable to discern right from wrong? Are you unskilled in righteousness? You claimed to have knowledge of the meat, but speak of one who drinks milk.

We are warned to watch carefully, and not fall asleep.

1 Corinthians 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

Really, what happened to Judas?

Scripture has told us that Judas Isariot was beguiled by satan. His own free will to do as he felt would be profitable.

Luke 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

So, I guess the answer is yes, you hold yourself to be the Kingdom of God? Interesting.
JoeT

I trust in the word of God that as a good and righteous servant, confessed my faith in the begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ. And in full awareness in being begotten again unto the living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. I have been raised, adopted as a child of God, into heavenly places.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

[sndbay]

. If you ever wanted to use the precepts of Solo Scriptura as the rule of faith , the only way to achieve a true understanding of Scripture, you need these eight individual principles, Scripture, Tradition, the Church, Councils, the Fathers, the Pope, miracles, and natural reasoning.

JoeT

According to Christ Jesus, and the words He spoke to His disciples.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Do you really think God has forsaken us to be followers of men. Those who follow Christ, walk having the spirit within them. Just as Christ Himself is said to be one with the Father having the Holy Spirit. They the disciples were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Paul spoke in the spirit of our Lord Jesus Christ, and God the Father.

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

And as we are today, they were kept by the power of God through One Faith

1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


John 17:6 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

[JoeT777]

and make our abode with him.

Some animals can read, only man reasons. Who do you think Christ was referring to when he said 'OUR'?

If you love Christ then His Church will make abode with us.

JoeT

[sndbay]

Some animals can read, only man reasons. Who do you think Christ was referring to when he said 'OUR'?

metaph.of God and Christ by their power and spirit exerting a most blessed influence on the soul of the believers

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

If you love Christ then His Church will make abode with us.

JoeT

His church are the members who walk in the light of righteousness, begotten again from the dead(crucified) and buried(baptized), by the resurrection of Christ Jesus, and the sanctification of the Holy Spirit through baptism.

[JoeT777]

metaph.of God and Christ by their power and spirit exerting a most blessed influence on the soul of the believers

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

The mansions are multiple - plural, there is only one 'Father's house'- singular. 'I' told you - singular

We make our residence with him- the 'many of us' will come live with him. Christ and his buddies are coming over for dinner - AND HE'S bringing the BAND!


JoeT

[galveston]

You write a good argument, Joe.

But you see, it is those very traditions and many of the writings of earlier "fathers" that I take issue with. They are the words of men, and when they do not conform to the writings of the original Apostles, I reject them as false.

Charles Chiniquy pointed out over 100 years ago that it is impossible to conform to the words of the "fathers" because the "fathers" didn't even agree with each other on several important issues.

It is not only the RCC that has deviated from the original Gospel message. Most of what is loosely called Protestant has done the same thing.

The church that is not doing the works that Jesus did is not The Church but is a counterfeit

PS: Since catholic means universal Christian, that makes me a catholic priest, right?

[JoeT777]

You write a good argument, Joe.

Thank you.

But you see, it is those very traditions and many of the writings of earlier "fathers" that I take issue with. They are the words of men, and when they do not conform to the writings of the original Apostles, I reject them as false.

So, you were expecting words of mice? Would words of mice be anymore reliable? Certainly they were men, as men they made mistakes. That is where the Magisterium of the Church comes into play, both guiding and teaching in God’s Truth.

Charles Chiniquy pointed out over 100 years ago that it is impossible to conform to the words of the "fathers" because the "fathers" didn't even agree with each other on several important issues.

You don’t trust the Early Fathers, but you would rather take the word of Charles Chinquy? How do you know they didn’t agree with each other on matters of faith and morals? Have you read them? If so have you found where the Early Fathers conflict with Catholic doctrine on matters of faith and morals? I haven't.

It is not only the RCC that has deviated from the original Gospel message.

I disagree with this premise made here.

Most of what is loosely called Protestant has done the same thing.

I wouldn’t know, except for one - and you don't want to hear it.

The church that is not doing the works that Jesus did is not The Church but is a counterfeit

Agreed.

PS: Since catholic means universal Christian, that makes me a catholic priest, right?

Ok, I got to admit – that was a funny!!

JoeT


P.S. Back in the late 50's a wise Bishop once said, "Few Americans hate the Catholic Church, but millions hate what they think is the Catholic Church". (Bishop Fulton Sheen)

[arcura]

sndbay ,
So are you saying that there are people like you who do not commit any sins.
That seem to be what you are saying.
Your slap against Catholics that sin are walking in darkness is unfounded, for according to you anyone who sins is walking in darkness, that includes me.
I lost my temper the other day, that was a sin, but I still walk in the light of God's forgiveness for I repent of it.
It seems to me that you are falling off that high horse you are riding. EVERYONE WHO IS HUMAN WALKING THIS EARTH SINS so the bible says, so I believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

sndbay ,
EVERYONE WHO IS HUMAN WALKING THIS EARTH SINS so the bible says, so I believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred, perhaps you can answer these questions.

(Gal 3:13)
Did Christ set us free from the curse of sin?

(1 Peter 3:18)
Did Christ suffer for our sin, so that we can be quickened by the spirit?

(Hebrew 9:28)
Did Christ once offered to bear the sins for many? And will those that follow HIM appear before Him without sin?

(Hebrews 10:10)
Are we sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all?

(Romans 8:2)
Does Christ's law of life in the spirit set us free from death and sin that we were doomed by?


(1 Cr 1:3 1 Th 4:3 - 4:4 2 Th 2:13 1 Peter 1:2)
Fred, Do you know the meaning of being sanctified through the Holy Spirit?


Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

If you know all this is written in scripture ( Word of God), why would you think we that follow Christ can not walk having the spirit of promise? Christ dwells with those that are sanctified. The Holy Spirit can not and will not dwell in sin.

[JoeT777]

Fred, perhaps you can answer these questions.

(Gal 3:13)
Did Christ set us free from the curse of sin?

Christ died on the cross for all sins. We knew this. The verse isn't disparaging of the law per se, but rather that part of the law that casts curses. Paul doesn't say there is no longer a Law, but rather that the covering of sins by ritual and customs no longer holds sway. Thus Paul says, “That the justification of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit.” The Law is still there but no longer is it to, as it were, be worn on the outside but rater internalized, brought into the soul.

Not only is this verse being mischaracterized but it's not applicable here. Even when rendered anyway you want the verse only says the obvious and doesn't add to the discussion.

(1 Peter 3:18)
Did Christ suffer for our sin, so that we can be quickened by the spirit?

Again you cited a verse that states the obvious. Of course Christ died for the sins of mankind. But how does being ”inspired” or having the spirit enlivened help with the discussion here. This verse too doesn't add or subtract from any of the arguments made.

(Hebrew 9:28)
Did Christ once offer to bear the sins for many? And will those that follow HIM appear before Him without sin?

(Hebrews 10:10)
Are we sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all?

(Romans 8:2)
Does Christ's law of life in the spirit set us free from death and sin that we were doomed by?

All of these verses are similar in that they don't add to our conversation. If they do, I'm at a lost as to how. Maybe somehow you've gotten the wrong impression of what Catholicism is; we're Christians, in fact we're a Christian body that pre-dated Luther's 'Evangel'; we're not criminals who are doomed to hell.

(1 Cr 1:3 1 Th 4:3 - 4:4 2 Th 2:13 1 Peter 1:2)
Fred, Do you know the meaning of being sanctified through the Holy Spirit?

1 Cor 1:3 is part of the salutation of Paul's message - you know something like 'howdy folks'. He invites us to the Church for our Grace and our peace which comes from the Father. I prefer verse 13 in the same epistle, its more germane to the question here and I've been asking you this same question for well over a year now! “ Is Christ divided? Was Paul then crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?” (1Cor 1:13)


Overall, you haven't addressed any of the topics we've discussed here, you definitely haven't shown, or 'disproven' the Church. I can't find any reason for the post except that you get some perverse pleasure out of citing hell and damnation as if you were slinging mud.


Unable to understand your point, I'm quite frustrated; if you have a point it's muddled and clouded. So, what is your point?


JoeT

[sndbay]

Unable to understand your point, I'm quite frustrated; if you have a point it's muddled and clouded. So, what is your point?

JoeT

The point is in the Word of God review: Jude 1:1-25


1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in HIM sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen HIM, neither known HIM.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

[JoeT777]

The point is in the Word of God review: Jude 1:1-25


1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in HIM sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen HIM, neither known HIM.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

To acknowledge isn’t to abide – simply acknowledging Christ isn’t to abide in Christ – in fact to abide would be to ‘work’ and the merit would be not to sin. So, to me, in your terms, this is WORK theology; very Catholic

Ok, Christ destroys the work of the devil. AND? AND? How does this add to the conversation? Are you saying the Catholic Church is the work of the devil? Are you saying those in the Church are the work of the devil? Who and what does this apply too? And what does it mean? If you’re going to pass around dispersion like they’re compliments at least you can do is tell us why.

As far as Jude is concern this doesn’t add anything appreciable either. So where are you going with all this – are you ever going to let us in on the secret?

[sndbay]

1 Cor 1:3 is part of the salutation of Paul's message - you know something like 'howdy folks'. He invites us to the Church for our Grace and our peace which comes from the Father. I prefer verse 13 in the same epistle, it more germane to the question here and I've been asking you this same question for well over a year now! “ Is Christ divided? Was Paul then crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?” (1Cor 1:13)

JoeT

I will forgive your exampled mockery that you speak towards the Word of God. Perhaps your playful speak is nothing intentional, but I would advise you against childish speech, that gives the impression of less then a sincere heart towards what is written in scripture.

Paul's speech as in example of full awareness, addressing those members in the church of God, which is at Corinth, and states that they are sanctified in Christ Jesus.

He did continue with his words of greeting and spoke of the grace and peace in the mist of them from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

However Paul was clearly warning them to speak the same things, as was given to them as breathren unity in the name of Christ Jesus. Making sure to be perfectly joined in the same mind and judgement to the fellowship of God's Son Jesus our Lord. Man's doctrine and man's traditions do not hold stedfast in the auchor of Christ Jesus that brought us in the flesh the Word of God. We must recognize that Christ Himself would not speech of Words other then what was told to HIM by the Father. Christ is the perfect example to follow.

Paul's straight way of saying there are contentions/strifes among them.Strifes are stated plainly in Romans 1:29. This causes confusion rather then the unity of perfecting faith in Christ Jesus. There is only One Body, One Spirit, One Hope, One Faith, One Lord, One Baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, through all, and in us all. (Eph 4:4-5-6)

We are to walk in love, rooted and grounded that Christ may dwell in our hearts by One Faith (Eph 3:17) And the glory be unto Christ in the church of members throughout all ages (Eph 3:21)

~in God's Grace

[sndbay]

And what does it mean? If you’re going to pass around dispersion like they’re compliments at least you can do is tell us why.

Because I was answering Fred posting when you intervened with your belief.

sndbay ,
It seems to me that you are falling off of that high horse you are riding. EVERYONE WHO IS HUMAN WALKING THIS EARTH SINS so the bible says, so I believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

If the appearance is that I am falling off a high horse, I can only remark to say, your accusation was once done to Christ in the same manner.And it is written the same will be done to us that follow HIM in full awareness of HIs worthiness.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering HE hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

[JoeT777]

I will forgive your exampled mockery that you speak towards the Word of God. Perhaps your playful speak is nothing intentional, but I would advise you against childish speech, that gives the impression of less then a sincere heart towards what is written in scripture.

Paul's speech as in example of full awareness, addressing those members in the church of God, which is at Corinth, and states that they are sanctified in Christ Jesus.

He did continue with his words of greeting and spoke of the grace and peace in the mist of them from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

However Paul was clearly warning them to speak the same things, as was given to them as breathren unity in the name of Christ Jesus. Making sure to be perfectly joined in the same mind and judgement to the fellowship of God's Son Jesus our Lord. Man's doctrine and man's traditions do not hold stedfast in the auchor of Christ Jesus that brought us in the flesh the Word of God. We must recognize that Christ Himself would not speech of Words other then what was told to HIM by the Father. Christ is the perfect example to follow.

Paul's straight way of saying there are contentions/strifes among them.Strifes are stated plainly in Romans 1:29. This causes confusion rather then the unity of perfecting faith in Christ Jesus. There is only One Body, One Spirit, One Hope, One Faith, One Lord, One Baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, through all, and in us all. (Eph 4:4-5-6)

We are to walk in love, rooted and grounded that Christ may dwell in our hearts by One Faith (Eph 3:17) And the glory be unto Christ in the church of members throughout all ages (Eph 3:21)

~in God's Grace

Well tell me how we are one in unity? Your views are guided by a subjective reasoning that looks inward for it's authority. My faith on the other hand has completely different views; two different Christs. Where is the unity? Why we likely have the same final goal, your faith looks to a different faith for its hope; how is that unity? Your faith says nobody can be holy, all of mankind is depraved, incapable of holiness; my faith looks for all its members to persevere until holiness. How is that unity? My Church is meant for all those in the universe, yours is privately interpreted. How is that unity? Your church buries the Apostles, my reveals every word they wrote or taught? How is that unity?


So let me ask, what would you have me do for 'unity'?


JoeT

[galveston]

Thank you.

JoeT

P.S. Back in the late 50's a wise Bishop once said, "Few Americans hate the Catholic Church, but millions hate what they think is the Catholic Church". (Bishop Fulton Sheen)

You seem to misuinderstand me. I don't hate any church. I am simply pointing out that most of what is called the church doesn't measure up to New Testament standards.

You didn't answer how many believers you have seen filled with the Holy Spirit, so I assume you haven't seen any.

How many healings by the power of Jesus have you observed?

Have you ever heard a spoken prophetic message uttered under the power of the Holy Spirit?

Where are the spiritual credentials of your denomination?

Mark 16:20
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
(KJV)

[sndbay]

Well tell me how we are one in unity?

We are each in unity, when we have the fullness of knowledge in Christ Jesus, One Faith full of grace and truth through the Holy Spirit. One must remember, we are given in accordance to the will of God.
(Eph 4:13)

Your views are guided by a subjective reasoning that looks inward for it’s authority.

The circumcision of the heart in love towards Christ Jesus. Sanctified throught the Spirit.

Luke 11:34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.

John 1:16-17 And of HIS fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Luke 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness

I follow Christ Jesus, and through the Holy Spirit full of grace and truth, I do walk having the spirit .

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

My faith on the other hand has completely different views; two different Christs. Where is the unity?

Two different Christs? Perhaps you will explain this comment?

Why we likely have the same final goal, your faith looks to a different faith for its hope; how is that unity?

Then I tell you, what I hold as One Hope is the One Faith in Christ. Unity with Christ our One Lord and Saviour.

What I trust is that the church are members in fellowship with Christ the One Body. Each member called in One Hope, in Christ.

Your faith says nobody can be holy, all of mankind is depraved, incapable of holiness;

No that is untrue. Sanctified means holy just as the 7th days was in the beginning. We are sanctified through the Holy Spirit, full of grace and truth.

Hebrew 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for HIM shall HE appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

my faith looks for all its members to persevere until holiness.

All are Called to be members of One Body Christ Jesus

My Church is meant for all those in the universe, yours is privately interpreted. How is that unity?

Free will choice in who you follow. You follow a rock, and call Him all authority .

I follow Christ to eat and drink of the spiritual Rock.

Eph 1:2-3-4 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under HIS feet, and gave HIM to be the head over all things to the church Which is HIS Body, the fulness of HIM that filleth all in all. ,

Your church buries the Apostles, my reveals every word they wrote or taught? How is that unity?

Untrue Joe, I just posted the fullness of truth and grace the Apostles wrote, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. They held stedfast in the spirit with our Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus. The One Body, One Spirit, One Hope, One Faith, One Lord, and One God and Father above all, who was through all and in all things.

So let me ask, what would you have me do for ‘unity’?

JoeT

Deny yourself, and walk having the spirit. Suffer yourself to follow Christ in righteousness, hearing HIS voice. Be baptized in full awareness that you are buried with Christ and able to raise as He raised. Be begotten again unto One Hope in Christ.

[JoeT777]

You seem to misunderstand me. I don't hate any church. I am simply pointing out that most of what is called the church doesn't measure up to New Testament standards.

No, it was me that misunderstood, the fault was mine. I didn't think anything of using the word 'hate' it was only part of the quote. It was meant to imply that many criticize the Catholic Church without really knowing it.

You didn't answer how many believers you have seen filled with the Holy Spirit, so I assume you haven't seen any.

I thought I answered the question, none that I know of. But, I'm not sure there would necessarily be any outward physical signs. As there should be, if there is a permanent inner change toward holiness I'd suggest I've meet many. Generally, not all, Catholics don't believe that the Holy Spirit 'possesses' a person. Rather, the Holy Spirit dispenses certain graces with which the will is free to cooperate with or not.

How many healings by the power of Jesus have you observed?

I know of a Catholic priest who is a healer, I think, in New York. I do know of several charismatic priests here, but have never seen a healing.

Have you ever heard a spoken prophetic message uttered under the power of the Holy Spirit?

there are several charismatic parishes here have had prayer sessions where the participants 'speak in tongues' knowing a few of the participants I came to find out there are several Church rules that the priest must follow to insure this isn't somehow demonic.

Where are the spiritual credentials of your denomination?

Mark 16:20
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.(KJV)

The Kingdom of God, the Holy Roman Catholic Church, i.e. the Church of Jesus Christ – it's not a denomination; it was commissioned by Christ. See Matt 16. Her head is Christ who is heaven, her earthly substitute or vicar is the Bishop of Rome, i.e. the Pope.

JoeT

P.S. I forgot to add, Catholics are generally more charismatic than non-Catholic Christians. We look for God to act in our lives through nature or spiritually. They regularly have daily mass, vespers, Stations of the Cross, Hours, and other similar prayer and devotional activates. I took the opportunity to join a group on a holy pilgrimage last year.