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NeedKarma · Nov 30, 2009, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

You can't not beleive when it serves your purpose and then beleive to make a point.

Man isn't that the truth - for everybody.

Alty · Nov 30, 2009, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

My only issue, if they don't beleive in God, then how do they beleive that "god" killed all of the people.

You can't not beleive when it serves your purpose and then beleive to make a point.

It's for the sake of discussion Chuck.

When discussing an issue that is faith based you have to use that persons faith to discuss the issue.

In this case Arcura stated that God didn't kill anyone, but according to the bible that Arcura follows, this simply isn't true.

ScottGem · Nov 30, 2009, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

My only issue, if they don't beleive in God, then how do they beleive that "god" killed all of the people.

You can't not beleive when it serves your purpose and then beleive to make a point.

Well the point here is that we are saying what the Bible says, not what we necessarily believe.

arcura · Nov 30, 2009, 06:42 PM

Altenweg,
I believe I said that with and explanation that God takes back what He gives.
He will take the life of every mortal in many different ways.
God has His reasons of why in each case.
If you want to call that killing that's your choice not mine.
Regardless of that as the old saying goes we will not live this life without death.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Alty · Nov 30, 2009, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

Altenweg,
I believe I said that with and explanation that God takes back what He gives.
He will take the life of every mortal in many different ways.
God has His reasons of why in each case.
If you want to call that killing that's your choice not mine.
Regardless of that as the old saying goes we will not live this life without death.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Of course we'll all die eventually, I'm not talking about normal death, I'm talking about killing.

The great flood. He let those people die. He killed them by drowning them. That's just one example.

The bible does explain why this happened, still, he mass murdered all those people. There's no way to sugar coat it. He caused the flood, he made them drown. If you put someone's head in a tub full of water and they die, you killed them.

ScottGem · Nov 30, 2009, 08:17 PM

From Dictionary.com:
1. To deprive of life, animal or vegetable, in any manner or by any means; to render inanimate; to put to death; to slay. [1913 Webster]

So, according to the Old Testament, God deprived of life any being not on the Ark. Yes there are many issues that derive from this act. Justification, the right as the creator to do this etc.

But those issues do not, in any way, change the fact that, according to the Bible, God killed all those beings. For the purpose of THIS discussion that is the only issue.

elscarta · Nov 30, 2009, 10:46 PM

Originally Posted by Altenweg

Of course we'll all die eventually, I'm not talking about normal death, I'm talking about killing.

The great flood. He let those people die. He killed them by drowning them. That's just one example.

The bible does explain why this happened, still, he mass murdered all those people. There's no way to sugar coat it. He caused the flood, he made them drown. If you put someone's head in a tub full of water and they die, you killed them.

Altenweg, God did not mass murder all those people. Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being. God had every right to judge those people and to kill them for their disobedience and wickedness and for siding with the Devil.

Killing the enemy in a war is not murder, nor is capital punishment murder.

Alty · Nov 30, 2009, 11:05 PM

Originally Posted by elscarta

Altenweg, God did not mass murder all those people. Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being. God had every right to judge those people and to kill them for their disobedience and wickedness and for siding with the Devil.

Killing the enemy in a war is not murder, nor is capital punishment murder.

Killing is killing. You can put a pretty bow on it by saying that it's just, but it's still killing.

Here's the way I see it, and forgive me if I make this a bit long.

A while back I belonged to another site (yes, I know, bad Alty, I cheated on AMHD) and we got into a discussion about child molesters and the punishment these people should get.

Now, many of you know that I was molested as a child. It's by far the most horrible thing that's ever happened to me, and I've been through a lot of crap in my life. But the memories of that have definitely affected me more then any other event in my life.

So, when confronted with this issue I said that I wouldn't be at all sorry if child molesters got the chair. Fry them. Get them out of our world. I wouldn't shed a tear.

Another member came on and asked if I'd want to push the button, pull the trigger, whatever it takes to end this persons life. Would I be willing, through my rage, to do that? I more then most would be justified, but could I? Would I?

I really had to think about it. These people take a child and make every day thereafter a living hell. They take away the innocence, the good, the child, in the child. They are the bottom of the barrel when it comes to decency. They should not be allowed to roam the earth, but, could I kill someone, even knowing what they've done? Could I kill the person that molested me?

No. I couldn't. It's murder.

Do they deserve to die? I think they do, but it won't be by my hand. I'm not a killer.

So, kill the "enemy" in a war and justify it by saying that you're doing it for your country. It's still murder. Kill the people that wouldn't believe in God, let them drown, it's still murder.

You can't put a pretty bow on murder. You just can't. Thou shalt not kill, that's from your bible. Funny how that particular commandment always gets looked over when someone wants to kill.

arcura · Dec 1, 2009, 12:18 AM

Altenweg,
I understand where you are coming from.
I am one of those who is against satate sanctioned killing of killers, etc.
I'm very much for life.
But Child molesters do need to be taken from society for all time, never released from jailI have read that in jail other prisoners are very rough on child milesters.
If so, so be it.
But I do not think that God murders people.
Murder is a legal term, for the crime of unjustifily taking a life.
Some taking of life is justified.
As an example in self defence or to protect one's family.
That is legally called justifiable homicide.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

JoeCanada76 · Dec 1, 2009, 12:21 AM

Originally Posted by Altenweg

Killing is killing. You can put a pretty bow on it by saying that it's just, but it's still killing.

Here's the way I see it, and forgive me if I make this a bit long.

A while back I belonged to another site (yes, I know, bad Alty, I cheated on AMHD) and we got into a discussion about child molesters and the punishment these people should get.

Now, many of you know that I was molested as a child. It's by far the most horrible thing that's ever happened to me, and I've been through a lot of crap in my life. But the memories of that have definitely affected me more then any other event in my life.

So, when confronted with this issue I said that I wouldn't be at all sorry if child molesters got the chair. Fry them. Get them out of our world. I wouldn't shed a tear.

Another member came on and asked if I'd want to push the button, pull the trigger, whatever it takes to end this persons life. Would I be willing, through my rage, to do that? I more then most would be justified, but could I? Would I?

I really had to think about it. These people take a child and make every day thereafter a living hell. They take away the innocence, the good, the child, in the child. They are the bottom of the barrel when it comes to decency. They should not be allowed to roam the earth, but, could I kill someone, even knowing what they've done? Could I kill the person that molested me?

No. I couldn't. It's murder.

Do they deserve to die? I think they do, but it won't be by my hand. I'm not a killer.

So, kill the "enemy" in a war and justify it by saying that you're doing it for your country. It's still murder. Kill the people that wouldn't believe in God, let them drown, it's still murder.

You can't put a pretty bow on murder. You just can't. Thou shalt not kill, that's from your bible. Funny how that particular commandment always gets looked over when someone wants to kill.

I really wanted to give you a greenie and more. Alty, that is it. Murder is murder. Can not put a pretty bow on murder. Thou shalt not kill, that is true. Under any circumstances it is not right to take anothers life.

God does not murder anyone. Creator of life. It is humans that kill each other and try to blame God or use God as a reasoning for them doing the killing.

Alty · Dec 1, 2009, 12:27 AM

Arcura, I understand where you're coming from too. I also agree that whatever happens to child molesters in prison, well, so be it, I'll turn a blind eye. ;)

The thing I have a hard time with, with regards to the flood especially, is the fact that innocent people did die. I don't think that killing everyone but Noah and his family, 2 of each animal, etc. was justifiable. What about babies? Babies are born innocent, without sin, but they were killed in order to cleanse the world.

I just can't see how killing innocent people is justified. What harm could a child do to God?

I'm not saying that your belief is wrong, but I do think that God killed. The fact that innocents were killed makes it a hard pill for me to swallow.

The fact is, Thou shalt not kill is one of the commandments, but most people think that some killing is okay. Someone else gave the example of war or capital punishment. So is it really a commandment? Is it then okay to commit adultery if it's justified? What about stealing? If the family is starving and they steal would that be justifiable?

It's either a rule or it isn't. There are no gray areas. If there's a gray area for one rule then the rest are pretty much null and void as well.

Maggie 3 · Dec 1, 2009, 01:13 PM

"God Is In Control" This is what gives me peace about things I can not understand.
God see the big picture, He knows what needs to be done and at the right time
Almighty God created this world out of nothing, put in into space, created all the
Galaxies in the universe put thelaws of nature in motion, and governs and guides
His creation. Certainly , He is in control of it. Not only did He create the universe, but
He sustains it and keeps it. That's what Paul said and describes in Col.1.
We will never clearly understand God and His working here on earth,But God is in
Control. I do believe that all things work together for good for thoes that love
The Lord and are called according to His pupose. Rom. 8:28

Col. 1:15-20 "He(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, firstborn over all creation.
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible
and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things
were created though Him and for Him. And He is befor all things, and in Him all
things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning,
the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness shoud dwell, and by Him to
reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven,
having made peace though the blood of His cross".

Trust and have Faith, that God is in Control!

Maggie3

ScottGem · Dec 1, 2009, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by Maggie 3

Trust and have Faith, that God is in Control!

Maggie3

I'm very glad that you find comfort in all that. But your post really had little if anything to do with the current discussion. Moreover, while its very nice that you find comfort that god is in control, not everyone does. If God is in control, then he is responsible for 9/11, Darfur, Katrina , Bernie Madoff, and a number of other disasters, tragedies and the ills of the world.

Yes I know your answer is that he sees the big picture or that he moves in mysterious ways, etc. But you beeive that because of your faith. And I don't want to tell you not to have that faith if it comforts you. But please don't tell me that I have to have the same faith. I don't take anything on faith, I prefer things to be tangible. I need evidence to believe in something.

rnrg · Dec 1, 2009, 02:55 PM

We live in an age where there are no consequences for anyone's wrongdoings. A slap on the hand should be sufficient! This line of thinking does not promote "healthy living," but only a lifestyle of self fulfillment. So what if we destroy, deprave, degrade, deceive, debase, debauch, or defraud another human being. Is it really so bad? According to God, there is a problem.

Our world is filled with demons with Satan being the great leader and deceiver. He is the epitome of evil. Wherever evil is, there is Satan or his demons. The demons were also present during the flood. Genesis chapter 6 tells of man's wickedness and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Do you still think God should have spared them? If you know the story, Noah actually preached for about 120 years while building the ark. Everyone still refused to listen, and God was not going to force anyone on the ark. He wanted them to come because they loved and tusted Him. First Peter 3:20 says "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." Longsuffering is only one of many words that describes a very patient and loving God. One hundred and twenty years is a very long time. Enough time that everyone including those that were small and young would have been able to hear about the flood that God was going to send if the people did not repent. As you know, they did not repent and come aboard the ark, and all except Noah's family CHOSE to die instead of accept God and LIVE.

God is the only true and fair Judge. Because I know Him personally, I don't question his Judgements. They are right because they are based on His Truth. However, we can't say that about our earthly judges or law. We do have man-made laws that are to protect its people. God clearly tells us to obey those in authority (man's law) if it lines up with His Law. So if our law states that anyone that murders another will lose his life (after a fair trial), should we not uphold our law even though it sounds harsh. What message do we sent out to those that abuse our system, if no one is ever punished or suffers the consequences of their actions. I do not like the thoughts of anyone losing their life, but my thoughts are why would anyone take another's life, knowing that if caught they would lose their life. We have created a society that believes that no crime is too big or bad enough. Telling a criminal to be good is only creating a fearless group of renegades with no hesitation to go back out and finish what they started. You may be sure that Satan and his demons are only too happy to fill their minds with ideas.

I have learned that for me that if there is
No God then no peace, but if you
Know God then you know peace.

Maggie 3 · Dec 1, 2009, 03:21 PM

Scott, I wrote this for the christians that are questioning God for killing people.
We have no right to complain if our trust is in Him.
It is the devil or satan that came to steal kill, and destroy. Satan is spirit and
Puts evil thoughts in our mind and tries to control us. Some people
Believe what they hear and follow him. Jesus came that we might have life and have it more abundantly. We learn truth from Gods Word. It's all a choice we make.
It is good to know truth sets people free, so we can live in peace and joy if
We choose, and I choose God and His peace.

Maggie 3

ScottGem · Dec 1, 2009, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by rnrg

I believe God is the only true and fair Judge. Because I believe I know Him personally, I don't question his Judgements. I believe They are right because they are based on His Truth.

I have learned that for me that if there is
no God then no peace, but if you
know God then you know peace.

I have only a small quibble with your post. Please note what I have added in red and emphasized in bold. As long as you qualify your statements as representing your beliefs then I have problems with it.

ScottGem · Dec 1, 2009, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Maggie 3

Scott, I wrote this for the christians that are questioning God for killing people.
We have no right to complain if our trust is in Him.
It is the devil or satan that came to steal kill, and destroy. Satan is spirit and
puts evil thoughts in our mind and tries to control us. Some people
believe what they hear and follow him. Jesus came that we might have life and have it more abundantly. We learn truth from Gods Word. It's all a choice we make.
It is good to know truth sets people free, so we can live in peace and joy if
we choose, and I choose God and His peace.

Maggie 3

Why just write for Christians?

If trusting in God means you have no right to complain, then that's just another reason to NOT put blind faith in a God.

And finding "truth" in God's words is just another way of saying that you have faith in those words. But truth is something that can be proven, not something that you just believe on faith.

And, if "god is in control" as you said earlier, then how do you have choice? The two concepts are contrdictory.

arcura · Dec 1, 2009, 08:11 PM

ScottGem,
God is in control according to His wishes.
But He gave us free will so He does not interfere with what we decide to do rightly or wrongly.
In that case we are in control of our lives.
Yes belief in God's truth is a matter of faith.
But since He is the ultimate in wisdom, love, mercy, and all His ather attributes God's truth MUST be true.
So we Chrsitiansd believe.
Peace and kindnerss,
Fred

ScottGem · Dec 1, 2009, 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

ScottGem,
God is in control according to His wishes.
But He gave us free will so He does not interfere with what we decide to do rightly or wrongly.
In that case we are in control of our lives.
Yes belief in God's truth is a matter of faith.
But since He is the ultimate in wisdom, love, mercy, and all His ather attributes God's truth MUST be true.
So we Chrsitiansd believe.
Peace and kindnerss,
Fred

Sorry Fred, but that's just sophistry. If we have true free will then he isn't in control. If he can step in and change what happens "according to his wishes", then we don't have free will. You can't have it both ways.

And he's the ultimate only if you believe he is, therefore, his truth imust be true only if you have faith in it. But the definition of truth is something real anf factual. Ergo, truth cannot be based on faith.

Faith can be a wonderful thing. Clearly it brings comfort to many, many people. I am happy for anyone who finds that comfort in faith. But I need to call it as I see it. And that religion is not based on truth, its based on faith. If you want to promote your religion or any religion for that matter, you need to promote it on the basis of what it does for you. Not on it being some all encompassing truth that you can't prove only accept as a matter of faith. As soon as you start arguing that your religion represents the one and only truth you lose me completely.

In other threads I spoke about my beliefs as a deist. I those threads I explained why I am a deist and why it satisfies my spirtual side. At no point did I argue that deism was THE way to believe, only that it was the right way for ME to believe.

arcura · Dec 2, 2009, 12:45 AM

ScottGem,
I told you what I believed and why.
Call it what you wish but that is my belief.
Our gift of free will from God causes much grief in the world and much happiness in how it is used.
If you are deist then I think that you might believe that God is a supreme being.
As such He is the only true truth.
Being a supreme being make God perfect and infinite in all His attributes.
Now, what are the attributes of the God in which you believe?
Peace and kindness,
Fred