[ETWolverine]

Why do they hate you so much? Is it your freedoms?

Oh... it's not just us... they hate all non-Islamics. We're just the biggest boys on the block and they resent it.

Elliot

[NeedKarma]

You protect your allies and they protect you.

How does Israel protect the US? By sucking in billions of dollars a year? What's the ROI there?

[NeedKarma]

Oh... it's not just us... they hate all non-Islamics. We're just the biggest boys on the block and they resent it.

Elliot

I don't see them planning attacks on Japan or the Soviet Union.

[ETWolverine]

How does Israel protect the US? By sucking in billions of dollars a year? What's the ROI there?

Actually, they protect us by providing the intelligence information that every other country in the world has consistently FAILED to obtain. Israeli intelligence hass consistently been able to infiltrate Arab countries' militaries and intelligence aparatus where everyone else has failed to do so. They even have people within the terrorist organizations, which is why terrorism is way down in Israel from where it was in the 90s and the early part of the decade. There are still MISSILE attacks against Israel, but terrorism is WAY down... in part because of the fence, and in part because of REALLY good intelligence on the terrorists.

They also provide an early warning system that we lack in the Middle East... a warning of any military movements in the area.

And then there's the Osirak bombing... and the Syria bombing in 2007... Israel has consistently proven itself willing and able to do the military jobs that America needs done but can't get caught doing.

Then there's the civilian stuff that you enjoy but don't even know about. The computer you are reading this on was probably developed in Israel. The software was written there for Microsoft, and the hardware was likely perfected there. The cell phone you use is probably based on Israeli technology. Most of the hospital equipment you see in the typical hospital was developed on behalf of American companies in Israel by Israeli R&D specialists. If you watch DVDs, keep in mind that the coding for DVDs was developed by Israelis. Many of your common medications were developed by Israeli pharmaceutical companies using American R&D money.

In short, what we get from Israel in civilian application more than outweighs the amount of money being spent in Israel by the US government.

There's a reason that Israel is called our greatest ally in the Middle East. They don't suck our money from us... if anything, we suck from their R&D establishment and their military/intelligence establishment.

Elliot

[ETWolverine]

I don't see them planning attacks on Japan or the Soviet Union.

First, there is no Soviet Union. Go back to the 80s.

Second, did you read the part about them attacking Georgia because Georgia is at war with the Chechnyans?

Well, Russia is at war with the Chechnyans too. In fact, Russia attacked Georgia earlier this year because Georgia supposedly wasn't doing enough to stop the Chechnyans from getting through the Pankisi Gorge into Russia.

So if Iran has a hankering to help the Chechnyans, they would attack both Georgia AND Russia. Problem is their current missile technology is ONLY capable of attacking Georgia right now. Russia is too far away. But Russia is a prime target if Iran ever gets longer range missiles.

Japan actually IS a target of Muslim fundamentalists as well... the Uyghur terrorists want to take out Japan just as much as they want to take out China. And they want to take out every other non-Islamic country in Asia too.

Remember, the goal of Islamic fundamentalists is to make the entire world Islamic. That doesn't end with just one or two countries... they are out for world domination. You think that they dislike specific countries and want to attack them because someone did something to them. But the truth is that their goal is to take over the world, REGARDLESS of who started something with them or not.

You think Canada is off the hook? That the Muslims in Iran would be satisfied with taking out the USA but leaving Canada alone?

You misunderstand the nature of the Islamic fundamentalist if you can argue that some countries are targets while others are not. ALL countries are targets, whether they are "friendly" or "neutral" or avowed enemies of the Islamic fundamentalists. And the sooner you accept that, the better.

Elliot

[NeedKarma]

In short, what we get from Israel in civillian application more than outweighs the amount of money being spent in Israel by the US government.

That's called trade. Normally we don't send billions in cash and weapons to the people we trade with. Israel would be just fine without that money - doesn't your country need an influx of cash right now?

[ETWolverine]

That's called trade. Normally we don't send billions in cash and weapons to the people we trade with. Israel would be just fine without that money - doesn't your country need an influx of cash right now?

First of all, what makes you so certain that we don't send billions in cash to other countries that we trade with?

Leaving aside Iraq, with $18.4 billion of aid, there's also Egypt ($1.87 billion), Afghanistan ($1.77 billion), Colombia ($570 million), Jordan ($560 million), Pakistan ($390 million), Liberia ($210 million), and manyu others. And that's just straight economic aid.

Then there's aid for specific purposes:

$2.4 billion to improve responsiveness to humanitarian crises worldwide,

$938 million to strengthen USAID’s operational capacity (whatever that means)

$2.3 billion to help Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and West Bank/Gaza achieve economic, democratic, security and political stabilization and to advance their overall development

$2.1 billion for programs in Africa to address non-HIV/AIDS health issues, and to help promote stability in Sudan, Liberia, Zimbabwe and Somalia

$4.8 billion for the Global HIV/AIDS Initiative in Africa and worldwide

$550 million to support the Mérida Initiative to combat the threats of drug trafficking, transnational crime, and terrorism in Mexico and Central America

$1.7 billion to promote democracy around the world, including support for the President’s Freedom Agenda

$385 million to support the Malaria Initiative to reduce malaria-related deaths in 15 target African countries

$94 million for the International Education Initiative to provide an additional 4 million students with access to quality basic education worldwide

$64 million to support the Climate Change Initiative to promote the adoption of clean energy technology, help countries adapt to climate change, and encourage sustainable forest management

$4.8 billion for foreign military financing to the Middle East, Latin America, Europe and Eurasia,

$2.2 billion for the Millennium Challenge Corporation to improve agricultural productivity, modernize infrastructure, expand private land ownership, improve health systems, and improve access to credit for small business and farmers

In short, the USA has a very long-standing tradition of giving lots of money to its allies for various purposes.

Israel is neither the only ally to receive such money, nor is it the largest dollar amount. And we trade with all the countries that we give aid to.

Are you saying that Israel should be different from all those other countries? That they should receive aid, but Israel shouldn't?

Elliot

[NeedKarma]

I see you copy/pasted from here: United States Agency for International Development - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia next time say so.

And yes Israel is by far the biggest single recipient of American money. I notoced that you copy/pasted the point form word for word... except you purposefully cut out the part that says "including $2.6 billion for Israel". Are you ashamed of that?

[ETWolverine]

I see you copy/pasted from here: United States Agency for International Development - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia next time say so.

And yes Israel is by far the biggest single recipient of American money. I notoced that you copy/pasted the point form word for word...except you purposefully cut out the part that says "including $2.6 billion for Israel". Are you ashamed of that?

Nope. But it doesn't compare to the $18 billion to Iraq, the total to Colombia which exceeds $4 billion, the total to Egypt which also exceeds $4 billion (including military aid, development moneys, drug enforcement money, etc.).

So again, Israel receives the most DIRECT aid (after Iraq), but they don't receive the most TOTAL MONEY. Not even close. They are dwarfed by Iraq, Africa, Afghanistan, West Bank, Gaza, Mexico, etc.

Plus, there's the fact that Israel gives back MUCH MORE than it receives... much more than any other country the USA gives money to... something you have yet to acknowledge.

And again, I ask a simple question that you refuse to answer.

Are you saying that Israel should be different from all those other countries? That they should receive aid, but Israel shouldn't?

[NeedKarma]

Why did you intentionally leave out the text I showed?

[paraclete]

Ridiculous.

First of all, if Iran gets nukes, those nukes WILL proliferate. They will be obtained by terrorists who will use them on their enemies... Israel and the USA and the EU. Nobody doubts that fact. Even Obama doesn't deny it. He just thinks he has the ability to control Iran with his magical speeches and kind words. Obama doesn't realize that he isn't quite as dazzling a speaker as he thinks he is and isn't quite as messianic as he believes. He truly thinks that he has powers beyond those of mortal men and can stop Ahmadinejad from getting nukes by talking to him. But even he doesn't doubt the consequences if he fails... he just doesn't believe he can fail.

Second, even if Iran doesn't give nukes to terrorists, that won't stop them from using them themselves via their own agents.

Third, Israel would not be Iran's only target. Turkey is a secularist nation that Iran believes ought to be Islamist... they would have no problem taking out Turkey with nukes in order to "consecrate it to Allah". Ditto for Saudi Arabia. The Mullahs have a particular mad-on against the House of Saud. Then there's various parts of the EU... Georgia would be a nice target since they are fighting against the Chechnyans, their fellow Islamist-Fascists-in-Arms.

In short, it ain't just about Israel.

Nevertheless, Israel is an ally. Even if it was just about Israel, that SHOULD be enough of a reason to keep it from happening... that's what alliances are about. You protect your allies and they protect you.

Elliot

And the rest of the world will just be standing around watching while the mad mullahs commit mayhem? Protection should not mean preemption. Iran has been blown up in the US psyche to be a nation of equal strength to the US but they are far from it. The US is a 50 times larger economy and there is no comparison in industrial capacity or capability. If we followed your logic the US would march into any country that they thought might be a threat to whoever

[ETWolverine]

Why did you intentionally leave out the text I showed?

Because we had already mentioned what Israel gets... it was already part of the conversation. My POINT, which you are either ignoring or simply unable to understand, is that OTHER countries are getting as much or more aid.

Which again brings me back to the question I asked yesterday... why should Israel be different from every other country that receives aid from the USA, especially since they give back much more than they receive?

Are you prepared to answer that question?

Elliot

[NeedKarma]

It's what involves you in the conflict in the Middle East - I thought that was obvious.

[ETWolverine]

and the rest of the world will just be standing around watching while the mad mullahs commit mayhem?

What would they do to stop it?

If Iran launches a nuclear strike at Israel, what will the rest of the world do to keep that strike from landing... in the roughly 3 minutes it would take for that strike to hit its target? What action can the rest of the world take that will keep Israeli citizens alive in that very credible scenario?

Protection should not mean preemption.

In this case the ONLY MEANS of prevention is preemption. How else do you stop a nuclear strike that is in the air, moving at supersonic speeds, and has only 3 minutes before it hits?

Iran has been blown up in the US psyche to be a nation of equal strength to the US but they are far from it. The US is a 50 times larger economy and there is no comparison in industrial capacity or capability. If we followed your logic the US would march into any country that they thought might be a threat to whoever

Iran doesn't have to be the USA's equal to be a credible threat to civilian lives. They aren't trying to win an economic war. They aren't trying to fight a battle of attrition over the long term the way the Cold War was fought. They are trying to get nukes so that they can use them in a single, glorious strike at their enemies and go down in a blaze of glory.

They aren't trying to win in the long term. They aren't even trying to win in the short term. What they are trying to do is get in ONE good strike at as many targets as they can before they die.

THEY ARE SUICIDAL!!

That's the point you are missing. They are the equivalent of a suicide bomber on a grand scale. That's why MAD can't and won't deter them. That's why they can't be stopped once they have nuclear capability. They don't CARE what the rest of the world does to them AFTER they hit us or Israel or Egypt, or Saudi Arabia or Turkey or Georgia or wherever else they decide to hit. They just want that one shot...

And against an enemy like that, the ONLY option for protection and prevention is preemption.

Elliot

[ETWolverine]

It's what involves you in the conflict in the Middle East - I thought that was obvious.

That doesn't answer my question.

What makes Israel different from every other recipient of US aid that you call THEM a group that "sucks" money from the USA and say that the USA should stop granting them aid when it doesn't stop aid to any other nation? Especially since Israel gives back more than it receives.

USA grants aid in various forms to Iraq, Afghanistan, Egypt, the West Bank, Gaza, Jordan, Syria, and a whole host of other countries in the region. The amount going to Israel is a relative pittance by comparison. What makes Israel a special case in your mind that the USA should stop granting THEM aid, but not any of the other nations in question?

Elliot

[excon]

In this case the ONLY MEANS of prevention is preemption. How else do you stop a nuclear strike that is in the air, moving at supersonic speeds, and has only 3 minutes before it hits?

Hello again, El:

Couple things... If antibullistic missile shields worked, doncha think the Israeli's have one? But, you want to spend our money building one anyway in OTHER parts of the globe... But, I digress - or do I??

Next is your view that preemption is the ONLY means of prevention... Personally, before we, or the Israeli's, fry a bunch of innocent Iranian citizens, I think we should talk to 'em.

You don't. You just want to fry 'em. What's the matter with you?

excon

[speechlesstx]

Iran has been blown up in the US psyche to be a nation of equal strength to the US but they are far from it.

By who? Who thinks that, Clete? I think we all know we could turn Iran into the land of glass in short order.

The US is a 50 times larger economy and there is no comparison in industrial capacity or capability.

And that's relevant, how?

If we followed your logic the US would march into any country that they thought might be a threat to whoever

What logic? The logic that says nukes in the hands of the Mullahs and a nutjob like the Mahdi Hatter is a bad thing?

[ETWolverine]

Hello again, El:

Couple things... If antibullistic missile shields worked, doncha think the Israeli's have one?

Anti-missile shields require large areas to be effective. They require enough land area to pick up the missile, track it, fire the anti-missiles and reach the missiles before the missile strikes its target. Israel is the size of New Jersey... way too small for an effective anti-missile shield. That's why they have a policy of preemption.

But, you want to spend our money building one anyway in OTHER parts of the globe... But, I digress - or do I??

I want to spend the money to put a missile system where it will be most effective... spread across ALL OF EUROPE.

Next is your view that preemption is the ONLY means of prevention... Personally, before we, or the Israeli's, fry a bunch of innocent Iranian citizens, I think we should talk to 'em.

You don't. You just want to fry 'em. What's the matter with you?

Excon

Gee, like the talks over the past 15 years have been so effective at getting the Iranians to stop their nuclear ambitions. We've been talking to them since the Clinton years, excon... where have you been. We've tried unilateral talks, bi-lateral talks, talks through third parties, three-way talks, talks in which we let OTHERS do the negotiating and stayed out of it, talks in which we took charge and made everyone else stay out of it. We have tried every single permutation and combination of talks possible. We've tried to bribe them, threaten them, cajole them, beg them, bow to them, and treat them like kings. IT HAS FAILED EVERY TIME FOR 15 YEARS!!

But you've come to the conclusion that The Messiah Obama is the Great Communicator who is going to miraculously talk to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and get him to see reason and get him to join the rest of civilization, where all those who have come before him (including Bill Clinton, who was no slouch at communication) have failed. All Hail The Chosen One!!

There will come a point in time when Iran WILL have nukes and missile capability. If we keep talking without taking action, that time will be SOONER rather than later. And once that happens, it will be too late, because he WILL use them.

As for "frying Iranian civillians"... I seem to remember Israel taking out the Osirak nuclear facility without any civilian casualties whatsoever. You think that either Israel or the USA couldn't do the same in Iran? Or a combination of the Israelis, the Americans and the Brits in a joint operation? The USA maintaining air superiority against the Iranian Air Force and the air forces of any other country that wants to get in our way, the Israelis doing the precision bombing (their particular specialty), and the Brits as backup to our air superiority force and Israel's bombers, and for logistical support.

You think we couldn't pull it off without significant civilian casualties?

There don't have to be "frying Iranians" to pull this off. It's been done before.

Elliot

[paraclete]

That's the point you are missing. They are the equivalent of a suicide bomber on a grand scale. That's why MAD can't and won't deter them. That's why they can't be stopped once they have nuclear capability. They don't CARE what the rest of the world does to them AFTER they hit us or Israel or Egypt, or Saudi Arabia or Turkey or Georgia or wherever else they decide to hit. They just want that one shot...

And against an enemy like that, the ONLY option for protection and prevention is preemption.

Elliot

Then by your own argument building a missile shield in Poland is pointless. The US should make one massive nuclear strike on Iran and take them out, and of course, the rest of the world with them

[Catsmine]

Then by your own argument building a missile shield in Poland is pointless. The US should make one massive nuclear strike on Iran and take them out, and of course, the rest of the world with them

If it hadn't been for Mr. Peanut in 1979 allowing an act of war to go unremarked, Persia would already be a glass lake.