[tomder55]

And that's a reason to starve someone to death ? Remember ;that was the ONLY life support she was on .

Anyway you slice it removing feeding tubes is immoral or are you saying the starving to death is a dignified way to go ?

The fact that hubby had a cool 1/2 million bank account waiting for him adds suspect motives to his decision.

[speechlesstx]

Gal no one is saying she shouldn't speak her mind. We are just tired of the inane drivel that comes out when she speaks. She is the butt of every joke because of that drivel.

I don't think this is exactly inane drivel. This is inane drivel - from the Amateur-in-Chief:

At the 17-minute mark we hear this:

“Medicare and Medicaid are on an unsustainable path. Medicare is slated to go into the red in about eight to ten years. I don’t know if people are aware of that. If I was a senior citizen the thing I’d be worried about right now is Medicare starts running out of money because we haven’t done anything to make sure we are getting a good bang for our buck, when it comes to health care”.

Five minutes later:

“I do think it’s important for, particularly seniors who currently receive Medicare, to understand that if we’re able to get something right, like Medicare, then there should be a little more confidence that maybe, the government can have a role, not the dominant role, but a role in making sure the people are treated fairly when it comes to insurance.”

Arguing for the post office and Medicare (both a rousing success and an abject failure according to the same man) as examples for health care reform, that's inane drivel. And what's even funnier to me is that so many people who think of Palin as a complete dufus voted for Joe "stand up Chuck" Biden

[ETWolverine]

Hello again, El:

No, it's not - unless its run by right wingers who DO get the government involved, ala Terri Schaivo, when they don't like the private health care decisions made by its citizens.

Look. The people know the right wing can't be trusted...

excon

Actually, it was the people on the left (namely Schiavo's husband) who got the government involved by suing for custody and making decisions on his wife's behalf... decisions that were HERS, not HIS, to make. HE used the government to get his wishes and impose HIS will.

Despite the fact that she was a demonstrably religious woman who was actively anti-suicide, was demonstrably physically healthy except for the brain injury, demonstrably awake and ACTIVE and had recognition of people, and demonstrably without pain, the state decided to kill her anyway.

She was murdered by the state at her husband's behest. She wasn't reliant on breathing machines and heart machines. Pulling the plug wouldn't have killed her. So she was starved to death so her husband wouldn't have to pay to take care of her anymore. She was a financial burden, and the state got rid of her because of it.

THAT is the treatment you can expect under Obamacare. And HR3200 Section 1233 would give them the power to do it.

Elliot

[tomder55]

As for Palin... you can tell how scared the left is of her by how hard they go after her.

I love it ! I don't think she will ever rise to national electoral positions .But what the Republicans need right now is some good ole fashion populism... and that's what she is providing . She is saying the things bluntly everyone else is thinking but are afraid to say.
The left should pay more attention to one of their own regarding Palin... Camille Paglia . She gets it.

[spitvenom]

Oh Biden is an idiot but but I love those teeth he has Palin has nice teeth also. The difference is Biden was an afterthought of the Obama Campaign Palin was the centerpiece of McCains.

Tom I'm sorry but in my opinion if you even have to be hooked up to one machine to stay alive you are not alive.

[NeedKarma]

As for Obama... you can tell how scared the right is of him by how hard they go after him.

[tomder55]

Tom I'm sorry but in my opinion if you even have to be hooked up to one machine to stay alive you are not alive.

Wow ,I'll be sure to forward this to all the handicapped folks I know who other than the inconvenience of the life support the machines give ,live productive lives .

Does that include pacemakers ?

[NeedKarma]

wow ,I'll be sure to forward this to all the handicapped folks I know who other than the inconvenience of the life support the machines give ,live productive lives .

How do the people you know hooked up to life support machines lead productive lives? What are they doing that's productive?

[speechlesstx]

as for Obama....you can tell how scared the right is of him by how hard they go after him.

One is in power, backed by a majority that doesn't need a single Republican... and one isn't.

[NeedKarma]

One is in power, backed by a majority that doesn't need a single Republican...and one isn't.

So? Irrelevant.

[speechlesstx]

Oh Biden is an idiot but but I love those teeth he has Palin has nice teeth also. The difference is Biden was an afterthought of the Obama Campaign Palin was the centerpiece of McCains.

Biden is still an afterthought, just like Hillary. Obama put people in place he could marginalize so as not to take any attention off him. And face it, McCain just doesn't energize much of anything, Palin did... and she also has great legs. :D

Tom I'm sorry but in my opinion if you even have to be hooked up to one machine to stay alive you are not alive.

Dialysis, anyone?

[tomder55]

How do the people you know hooked up to life support machines lead productive lives? What are they doing that's productive?

There is a person I work with, he never misses a days work. But he is dependent on his portable respirator .

I know more than one person who's kidneys get flushed twice weekly by dialysis .

Let me ask you ;would you take Professor Steven Hawking off life support ?

[NeedKarma]

I believe spit (and I) are referring to people in comas that cannot breathe or feed unassisted. That's the usual connotation surrounding the term "being on life support". My sister runs a dialysis department is the US so I'm familiar with that.

[ETWolverine]

Tom i'm sorry but in my opinion if you even have to be hooked up to one machine to stay alive you are not alive.

Then I guess, by that standard, that Christopher Reeve died the day he was thrown by that horse. From that day forward, he was hooked up to a breathing machine that breathed for him because he could not breath by himself. During the period between May 27, 1995 and October 10, 2004, he was, by your definition, already dead.

But during that period between his accident and his death, Reeve probably accomplished some of the most important work regarding disability activism in history.

• He appeared at the 1996 Academy Awards to a long standing ovation and spoke of boith his ordeal and the responsibility of filmmakers to attack important issues like disabilities head on.
• In the same year he hosted the Paralympics and spoke before the DNC about finding cures for disabilities and spinal injuries.
• He narrated the HBO film "Without Pity: A Film About Abilities" which won an Emmy for Outstanding Informational Film.
• He was elected Chairman of the American Paralysis Association and Vice Chairman of the National Organization on Disability.
• He co-founded the Reeve-Irvine Research Center, which is now one of the leading spinal cord research centers in the world.
• He created the Christopher Reeve Foundation to speed up research through funding, and to use grants to improve the quality of the lives of people with disabilities. The Foundation to date has given more than $65 million for research, and more than $8.5 million in quality-of-life grants.
• In 2002, the Christopher and Dana Reeve Paralysis Resource Center, a federal government facility created through a Centers for Disease Control and Prevention non-compete grant, was opened in Short Hills, New Jersey. Its mission is to teach paralyzed people to live more independently.
• Reeve lobbied for expanded federal funding on embryonic stem cell research to include all embryonic stem cell lines in existence and for open-ended scientific inquiry of the research by self-governance.
• In 2002, Reeve lobbied for the Human Cloning Prohibition Act of 2001, which would allow somatic cell nuclear transfer research, but would ban reproductive cloning. He argued that stem cell implantation is unsafe unless the stem cells contain the patient's own DNA, and that because somatic cell nuclear transfer is done without fertilizing an egg, it can be fully regulated
• In June 2004, Reeve provided a videotaped message on behalf of the Genetics Policy Institute to the delegates of the United Nations in defense of somatic cell nuclear transfer, which was under consideration to be banned by world treaty.
• In the final days of his life, Reeve urged California voters to vote yes on Proposition 71, which would establish the California Institute for Regenerative Medicine, and allot $3 billion of state funds to stem cell research. Proposition 71 was approved less than one month after Reeve' death.
• Also in 2004, Reeve directed The Brooke Ellison Story. The film is based on the true story of the first quadriplegic to graduate from Harvard University.

At the same time that he was involved in this activism, he was also adding to his prolific professional portfolio as well.

• In 1996, he then acted in a small role in the film A Step Towards Tomorrow.
• In 1997, Reeve made his directorial debut with the HBO film In the Gloaming with Glenn Close, Whoopi Goldberg, Bridget Fonda and David Strathairn. The film won four Cable Ace Awards and was nominated for five Emmy Awards including "Outstanding Director for a Miniseries or Special."
• In 1998, Reeve produced and starred in Rear Window, a remake of Alfred Hitchcock's 1954 film. He was nominated for a Golden Globe and won a Screen Actors Guild Award for his performance.
• On April 25, 1998, Random House published Reeve's autobiography, Still Me. The book spent eleven weeks on the New York Times Best Seller list and Reeve won a Grammy Award for Best Spoken Word Album.
• On February 25, 2003, Reeve appeared in the television series Smallville as Dr. Swann in the episode "Rosetta". In that episode, Dr. Swann brings to Clark Kent (Tom Welling) information about where he comes from and how to use his powers for the good of mankind. The scenes of Reeve and Welling feature music cues from the 1978 Superman movie. At the end of this episode, Reeve and Welling did a short spot inviting people to support the Christopher Reeve Paralysis Foundation. "Rosetta" set ratings history for The WB network
• Reeve also appeared in the Smallville episode "Legacy".
• In April 2004, Random House published Reeve's second book, Nothing is Impossible. This book is shorter than Still Me and focuses on Reeve's world views and the life experiences that helped him shape them.
• At the time of his death, Reeve was directing the animated film Everyone's Hero, a work which was completed by Colin Brady and Daniel St. Pierre, which was released in September 2006.

(Most of the above information comes from Wikipedia. A little of it comes from my own knowledge of Reeve, being the Superman fan --- read: comic book geek--- that I am.)

Not bad for a dead guy.

Sorry, but I cannot buy the argument that if someone is hooked up to 'even one machine to stay alive you are not alive'. Christopher Reeve was an amazing human being, and Reeve's life after his accident is certainly stupendous... but it is NOT UNIQUE.

I think you are wrong on this one, Spitevenom.

Elliot

[tomder55]

Maybe that is what spit meant . But what he wrote was :

Tom i'm sorry but in my opinion if you even have to be hooked up to one machine to stay alive you are not alive.

Now let's take your argument.. you say it applies for people in comas that cannot breathe or feed unassisted.

More often then not ,people get hooked up to these life support machines temporarily and their conditions improve. Are we saying that these people do not deserve to be hooked up ? Seems too many of us are willing to make value judgements on other peoples lives.

Bringing it back to HR3200... what Palin called the "death panels" sitting in Washington and not knowing that person one way or another will be making those value judgements... probably by the grotesque formulas devised by the likes of Zeke Emanuel and Tom Dashelle .

[NeedKarma]

More often then not ,people get hooked up to these life support machines temporarily and their conditions improve.

Yes that's true but usually the doctors can tell by ECGs and other such metrics what the likelihood of recovery is.

[spitvenom]

I didn't clearly say what I meant I always assume people can read my mind when I am doing 4 things at once. Christopher Reeve and Stephen Hawkins brains aren't dead they can think they can ask for things they know what is going on around them. Terri Schiavo couldn't.

[ETWolverine]

yes that's true but usually the doctors can tell by ECGs and other such metrics what the likelyhood of recovery is.

No, they really can't. They can only tell from EKGs and EEGs what the patient's condition is RIGHT NOW.

There is no reliable method for predicting the future. That is why doctors never predict with certainty. They tell you what the ODDS are based on prior studies, but they never tell you what WILL happen.

And that is the problem with blanket policies regarding health care that force only one possible response from the medical community. That is the problem with taking the decision out of the hands of the doctors and the patient and putting it in the hands of the government. The government looks at the odds (statistical probabilities) and makes policy. The DOCTOR, on the other hand, looks at the individual patient's specific case as well as the odds for the population as a whole, and makes decisions that are best for that PATIENT.

This illustrates the danger of government-controlled health care.

Elliot

[NeedKarma]

They tell you what the ODDS are based on prior studies...

Yes we agree, that's why I said

what the likelyhood of recovery is

BTW the doctor still makes the decision regardless of whether an HMO is paying the bill or the gov is.

[spitvenom]

Bringing it back to HR3200 ...what Palin called the "death panels" sitting in Washington and not knowing that person one way or another will be making those value judgements ...probably by the grotesque formulas devised by the likes of Zeke Emanuel and Tom Dashelle .

But how is that any different then an under writer at an insurance company? Regardless of what your Dr wants or you want the under writer tells you what you are going to get.