[NeedKarma]

Do you know anyone who has been denied care by a private insurance company?

Yes, you.

[ETWolverine]

Ok, go ahead and quote the part of the bill that says that. Link to page number and paragraph would be great.

Lets go with HR 3200. Section 1233 (pages 424 - 434).

Then there's section 141, which refers to the Health Choices Administration how it sets standards for insurance coverage. And section 142, which refers to the National Health Insurance Exchange which also sets standards for insurance coverage.

Both of these are rationing bodies. They determine who gets what coverage, how much of it, and what the standards for coverage are. Part of their job is to use QALY calculations to determine whether the coverage you need is cost effective. And if it's not, your dead. Thus they are death panels, regardless of what you call them.

When you are done reading these sections of the bill, read this op-ed from the Washington post.

washingtonpost.com

It's there. It's hidden in the language of the bill, but it's there.

Elliot

[NeedKarma]

Lets go with HR 3200. Section 1233 (pages 424 - 434).

Then there's section 141, which refers to the Health Choices Administration how it sets standards for insurance coverage. And section 142, which refers to the National Health Insurance Exchange which also sets standards for insurance coverage.

Both of these are rationing bodies. They determine who gets what coverage, how much of it, and what the standards for coverage are.

I read those pages and it says nothing at all of what you wrote.

In fact here is Section 141 in its entirety:

•HR 3200 IH
SEC. 141. HEALTH CHOICES ADMINISTRATION; HEALTH 8
CHOICES COMMISSIONER. 9
(a) IN GENERAL.—There is hereby established, as an 10
Independent agency in the executive branch of the Govern- 11
Meant, a Health Choices Administration (in this division 12
Referred to as the ‘‘Administration’’). 13
(b) COMMISSIONER.— 14
(1) IN GENERAL.—The Administration shall be 15
Headed by a Health Choices Commissioner (in this 16
Division referred to as the ‘‘Commissioner’’) who 17
Shall be appointed by the President, by and with the 18
Advice and consent of the Senate. 19
(2) COMPENSATION; ETC.—The provisions of 20
Paragraphs (2), (5), and (7) of subsection (a) (relat- 21
Ing to compensation, terms, general powers, rule- 22
Making, and delegation) of section 702 of the Social 23
Security Act (42 U.S.C. 902) shall apply to the 24
Commissioner and the Administration in the same 25
Manner as such provisions apply to the Commis- 26
Sioner of Social Security and the Social Security Ad- 1
Ministration. 2

Show me the text in the bill that supports your argument - so far we've seen nothing.

[ETWolverine]

I read those pages and it says nothing at all of what you wrote.

In fact here is Section 141 in its entirety:


Show me the text in the bill that supports your argument - so far we've seen nothing.

Section 141 is about two pages long and you didn't show all of it. Section 142 is just about as long.

By your own standards, would that make you a liar, as you have called Speechless countless times?

BOTH of those sections discuss the responsibilities of these panels and the methods by which they set STANDARDS within the health care system, and the methodology by which they do so. And that methodology includes QALY testing... what is referred to in the legislation as "efficiency testing" but actually refers to COST EFFICIENCY, not efficacy of the service being provided.

In other words, death panels that determine whether you get treatment based on your age and the cost of the treatment.

And you completely ignored section 1233 which talks about the death counselors for people over the age of 65. Would ignoring that ALSO make you a liar, as you have called Speechless?

Nah... it's just those of us on the right wing who lie, right?

Elliot

[speechlesstx]

Ok, go ahead and quote the part of the bill that says that. Link to page number and paragraph would be great.

NK, you seem to know more about it than we do so tell us how it's going to work. We're not idiots despite what you may believe, I mean of course want the most effective treatments. But knowing how my country works, the people behind this, the already established committee to determine "comparative effectiveness," the fact that controlling costs is mentioned on a daily basis and what it would take for the government to manage health care for everyone, my conclusion is entirely logical.

If you love the fact that your government decides which treatments are best then I'm happy for you. For me, trusting the feds to make that determination is about as intelligent as playing Russian Roulette... in fact, I don't see much difference between that and Obamacare.

[speechlesstx]

How does a nation with lower rates in all those fields have higher life expectancies? Because a) what you say is not true and b) the citizens can see a doctor regularly to nip issues at the bud i.e. they are generally healthier throughout their lives. Just take a look at the health boards on this forums - it's chock full of americans asking for medical advice for problems that should require a doctor's advice ASAP.

Maybe one reason you Canadians have a higher life expectancy is you keep sending people here for testing and treatment and footing the bill.

[inthebox]

Those countries that have a life expectancy higher than yours all have universal healthcare. But don't let that stop you, please continue to fear monger - it's what you do.

I've given you examples and reasons "universal" government run healthcare will reduce life expectancy in the US, and your reply is to say "fear monger?"

Well if the FACTS are to be feared then cal me a fear monger all you want.



Private health insurance: In one door and out the other?

The Supreme Court decision to invalidate Quebec's laws banning private health insurance for services covered under the Canada Health Act continues to stir the passions of physicians and health care providers. At their annual meeting, delegates of the Canadian Medical Association condemned the failures of the public health care system. By a two-thirds majority, they voted to entertain, after a 6-month period of study, the introduction of “private supplementary health insurance.” An opposing motion by the Canadian Association of Internes and Residents was defeated by the same margin.

...

However, a monopoly health care system that does not deliver promised care in a timely, nonarbitrary and fair manner fails this legal test. Governments must either fix the dysfunctions of their health care monopoly or permit individuals to seek care (and the private health insurance to purchase it) elsewhere.

This isn't "rightwing" or GOP or private health insurance propaganda, this is your own medical society and Quebec's majority supreme court decision back in 2005. No a hip replacement was not denied but delays in care and waiting lists might as well be a denial of healthcare.



Here are more facts

GOVERNMENT MEDICINE SHOULD HORRIFY AMERICANS


Besides using life expectancy as a measure of healthcare provided is full of potential confounding factors like:

Tobacco use: does one country have higher tobacco use rates per population? If so this may account for a lower life expectancy.

The same can be said for obesity rates, or high blood pressure rates. Certain ethnicities have higher rates of certain diseases. For example there are higher rates of high blood pressure and diabetes in blacks, hispanics, and certain American indians. Are these factors accounted for in the national life expectancy rates? How about drug abuse or alcoholism rates?

These factors have more of an influence on life expectancy rates than mode of healthcare delivery.




G&P

[inthebox]

Those of us opposed to universal healthcare as Obama would have it, have proposed alternatives or changes. Not a peep on the Obamacare side to demonstrate that either these are already part of HR 3200 or should or should not be incorporated. Why?

Why is it that those in favor of Obamacare cannot produce RESULTS better than the current system. Are we as Americans suppose to trust the government to get it right and do it in a cost effective manor?

Unfortunantly this is true:

Marion Illinois woes spur VA to widen probe

Sens. Durbin and Barack Obama of Illinois requested the hearing. The two Democrats have pushed the VA repeatedly for information about the Marion facility, 15 miles east of Carbondale, where nine patients died in surgery from October 2006 to March 2007. That was more than four times the expected rate.

Is this the type of healthcare Obama wants for all Americans?




G&P

[NeedKarma]

Section 141 is about two pages long and you didn't show all of it. Section 142 is just about as long.

Here are two links to the bill:
Text of H.R.3200 as Introduced in House: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - U.S. Congress - OpenCongress
http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20090714/aahca.pdf

They both show the text as I stated. Please show a link to the bill from a government site that shows any missing text from Section 141. Otherwise retract your post.

[NeedKarma]

NK, you seem to know more about...blah, blah, blah..

All I asked was for you to show the text in the bill to back up your statement. You obviously could not do that so your statement is bogus at this point, just more fear-mongering.

[NeedKarma]

Is this the type of healthcare Obama wants for all Americans?

No, that's obviously a gross misconduct of medecine. It's the same as someone posting info about people dying because of the current private insurance system and extrapolating it to represent your whole system. I'm assuming you wouldn't buy that either.

[NeedKarma]

Maybe one reason you Canadians have a higher life expectancy is you keep sending people here for testing and treatment and footing the bill.

Some people do go but it's a small number. It's another one of your talking points.

The Most Outrageous U.S. Lies About Global Healthcare | Foreign Policy

In general, Canadians are not flocking south for health care, and for good reason. According to a report from the Fraser Institute, a prominent Canadian think tank, both the Canadian and U.S. governments spend about 7 percent of their GDPs on health-care costs. (The United States, including private expenditure, spends about 16 percent of GDP on health care.) But all Canadians are covered for all medical care, plus some prescription drug costs. In the United States, 47 million are uninsured, and hundreds of thousands declare bankruptcy every year due to medical bills.
There are wait times in Canada, but nobody waits for emergency surgery; McConnell's claim about bypass patients is untrue. In 2007, a non-emergency patient in Ontario waited about 61 days for elective bypass surgery, according to Canada's health service. Such collected data is not made public in the United States.

Usually the healhcare program picks up the bill for any procedures done elsewhere so that the person does not experience financial hardship to boot. It matters not whethere you are a McDonald's employee or the CEO of Molson, you get cared for.

[inthebox]

No, that's obviously a gross misconduct of medecine. It's the same as someone posting info about people dying because of the current private insurance system and extrapolating it to represent your whole system. I'm assuming you wouldn't buy that either.

If you read the text, the VA has in place a process to certify doctors, apparently the ball was dropped on this end. Why hire a surgeon with a troubled past? Why not do the due diligence that is already should be SOP? Because when you pay way below the market rate for a professional, you will not get qualified candidate.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Daily Kos: State of the Nation)

23 (1) NO COST-SHARING FOR PREVENTIVE SERV
24 ICES.—There shall be no cost-sharing under the es
25 sential benefits package for preventive items and

1 services (as specified under the benefit standards),
2 including well baby and well child care.

Partnership Applauds Obama's 'No Cost-Sharing' Protections for Preventive Services

A study by Partnership for Prevention's National Commission on Prevention Priorities found that increased utilization of just five clinical preventive services - daily aspirin use, tobacco cessation counseling, adult pneumococcal immunization, and breast and colon cancer screening - would save an additional 100,000 lives a year, while all five services either save money or are cost-effective.

This is very good and the Obama administration should be pointing this out.







G&P

[NeedKarma]

Because when you pay way below the market rate for a professional, you will not get qualified candidate.

You'd have to prove that cause/effect relationship.

[excon]

Because when you pay way below the market rate for a professional, you will not get qualified candidate.

Hello again, in:

You should consider that we ARE the market. We're the biggest on the block. We're the last western nation to guard our health care profits. So, once THIS market goes, there ain't no other. Therefore, the guy who would have become a doctor, will become a banker...

Consequently, the people who become doctors will be those who want to SAVE people instead of get rich. Frankly, I'd rather have the former.

excon

[inthebox]

That is exactly what happened at the Marion Il VA.

Physician pay is limited by congress.

Salary Table 2007-CIN

Grade 15 step 10 $142,000


Physician Compensation Data, Doctor Salary, Physician Pay | Cejka Search


Private sector general surgery

Start at about $223,000 median $338,000


--------------------------------------


Tell me what qualified general surgeon with experience [ remember 4 years medical school age 26, and at least 5 years residency age 31 if not more ] would work at $81,000 less than the startting salary of a surgeon just out of training? Remember that VA salary is regardless if you do 10 surgeries a month or 50.





G&P

[NeedKarma]

inthebox,
Dude, why do you have so much spacing in your posts? It's like 45 lines with only 10 lines of text. Why?

[inthebox]

Hello again, in:

You should consider that we ARE the market. We're the biggest on the block. We're the last western nation to guard our health care profits. So, once THIS market goes, there ain't no other. Therefore, the guy who would have become a doctor, will become a banker...

Consequently, the people who become doctors will be those who want to SAVE people instead of get rich. Frankly, I'd rather have the former.

Excon

You don't think doctors should get compensated for at least 7 years of school and training, this is AFTER a college degree. Add the fact that many willl have 6 figure debt, be close if not over 30? Add the fact that at any time in your career you are statistically likely to get sued frivoulously and loose all that you have ever worked for. Even suits that are dropped take time and legal costs.


It is arrogant attitudes like your's and Obama's to assume that doctors should not get paid or think you know how to do their job better than doctor's do.

RealClearPolitics - Video - Obama: Doctors Taking Tonsils Out For Money Instead Of Diagnosing It As Allergies

"Right now, doctors a lot of times are forced to make decisions based on the fee payment schedule that's out there. ... The doctor may look at the reimbursement system and say to himself, 'You know what? I make a lot more money if I take this kid's tonsils out,'" Obama told a prime-time news conference.

News from the American College of Surgeons: Statement from the American College of Surgeons Regarding Recent Comments from President Obama

Three weeks ago, the President suggested that a surgeon’s decision to remove a child’s tonsils is based on the desire to make a lot of money. That remark was ill-informed and dangerous, and we were dismayed by this characterization of the work surgeons do. Surgeons make decisions about recommending operations based on what’s right for the patient

It is this arrogance coupled with stupidity that makes me, and apparently more and more Americans, not trust one word this president says. And you expect him to direct your healthcare?







G&P

[inthebox]

inthebox,
Dude, why do you have so much spacing in your posts? It's like 45 lines with only 10 lines of text. Why?

Is that your reply? To the information I link to prove my point? Can you logically counterpoint with facts and information? I won't change my style to accommodate you because I find one long paragraph with multiple points tedious.


G&P

[excon]

You don't think doctors should get compensated for at least 7 years of school and training, this is AFTER a college degree. Add in the fact that many willl have 6 figure debt, be close if not over 30? Add in the fact that at any time in your career you are statistically likely to get sued frivoulously and loose all that you have ever worked for. Even suits that are dropped take time and legal costs.... It is arrogant attitudes like your's..

Hello again, in:

When I said we're the market, I meant that WE'RE THE MARKET. When the change comes, it'll ALL change. Schools won't make fortunes for training doctors any more. Banks won't make fortunes loaning money to future doctors any more. Lawyers won't sue doctors any more if they can't get paid.

It won't cost much to become a doctor anymore, because doctors won't be making the big bucks...

I have nothing against doctors, and I'm not arrogant at all. It IS true, that medical school costs a lot of money... I just think they ought to wait longer than two weeks before they earn it all back. (That's a joke.)

I suppose I could call YOU arrogant, if you think I want to spend $.75 cents of every dollar I make on health care, which is where it'll be in 10 years if we do NOTHING, instead of the $.25 cents I spend today.

For YOU to want ME, and your fellow Americans to suffer THAT fate, is beyond arrogance.

excon