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semperfi3521 · Apr 15, 2009, 08:23 AM

Hi we're having a repeated issue of our bathroom plumbing backing up when running the washer. We've had the drain snaked 2 already and it works fine for a couple weeks (even when doing laundry), now its doing it again. I've heard that this potentially means there is a break in the pipes, but we had a leak test done when the foundation work was completed and they told us there were no leaks. The plumbing does not back up with regular use of showers/toilets. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks!

BRycraft · Apr 15, 2009, 08:44 AM

We had the same problem, used to literally have to stop the washer half way through the drain cycle otherwise the floor drain would back up by the washer. Nothing else did this, showers, toilets, even the dishwasher feeding the same branch line didn't back up, problem is volume of water in the washer compared to everything else, washer puts the most water in the line and it can't drain away fast enough. Not only did we have our line rodded we had it jetted where they used high pressure water to basically blast the lines clear of soap.grease build up, called hydroscrub.. When the plumber left he said we had the cleanest lines in town, well that lasted about 2 weeks. We finally called someone else who came out put a camera in the drain line. He ended up having to tear up my ranch home, break up the concrete to get to the pipe that looked like it was broken on video because it was so full of sludge he thought it was gravel from the surrounding land fill. However the pipe wasn't broken it was a terrible design when they built my home back in 1980. There were 2 branch lines going into this main line kind of like a Y however the pipe was more like a T where the individual lines were not swept properly and what was happening was sludge was building up on opposite ends of the Y from the other feed, so instead of a nice flow it was like a dam basically and over the years and years it just go so built up that it had to be totally removed and replaced with proper piping. After having the pipe rodded and jetted prior to having it removed it was laying in my driveway and that 4 inch opening had only about 1 inch at most of actual light passing through it and in that 3 feet section of cast iron I could BARELY see light out the other side, seemed everything was so clogged that rodding and jetting only opened a small hole and it basically collapsed back upon itself when the equipment was removed, like pulling your foot out of a mud pit it fills back in...
Everything was replaced with new Schedule 40 pipe and all the old cast iron was removed. That is what happened in my case, now its also possible that you don't have something so severe but you could have a back pitched pipe or a low in the drain where instead it drains properly you get a pool of standing water in the main line or a resistance per say and when you put a large volume of water into the pipe it will back up. Only a camera can detect this nothing else. It isn't that expensive and will give you a good idea of what your pipes condition is. B.T.W. because of that video they also found the mainline had a crack running all along the top of it that had to be replaced, they had to tear up from my kitchen through my front hallway into my sons bedroom to remove all the damaged pipe and replace it with new. Fortunately my homeowners insurance covered everything, including replacing my carpet and tile floors, cleaning my duct work, walls, the works. So double check with your home owners insurance also should this get to where they have to start tearing up your home. But get a good plumber and have them camera the line..
Good Luck Bill...

semperfi3521 · Apr 15, 2009, 01:37 PM

So we had a plumber come with the camera, and apparently the line drops down in the middle of the house creating a "belly" that gets clogged with whatever comes down the sewer. Our home owner's policy does not cover sewer back up so paying to dig up the house to this line, tear it out and replace is out of the question right now... Is there anything else we can do to help prevent this? Would using a high efficiency washer help since it would push less water in the line?

BRycraft · Apr 15, 2009, 04:52 PM

Yes that would be an option getting a front load washer as they typically use less then 1/2 the amount of water a top loader uses and overall will save you money in energy costs because the extraction speeds make the clothes come out much drier cutting down your dry time.. We have an LG front loader and have had no problems with it in the 4 years we have owned it.

Did they give you an estimate of the repair? If the drop in the line is under your front yard the cost is a lot cheaper then of course if its under your driveway or in your garage like some homes in my neighborhood. The job typically for replacing a main line in a front yard is mostly labor. I would guess a typical repair in the neighborhood of $1500 for a basic main line repair, depending on how easy the access is to the pipe as labor is the major cost of the job.. Then again get a couple estimates as the job itself doesn't require a master plumber, most likely they would send laborers to do the dig and a plumber to maybe do the actual pipe replacement as the repair isn't that technical at all... I believe when all was said and done at my home the total damage was in the thousands, with replacement costs of my floors, repairing the concrete flooring as we are on a slab, the total as around $18,000, I had nothing but laborers here for 3 days digging, what a mess...
Good Luck Bill...

ballengerb1 · Apr 15, 2009, 05:04 PM

I think I'd get a sceond opinion from another plumber with a camera. If there is never a back up from other toilets or shower and only from the washer you might not need a new drain line. If the line has a belly and is actually catch sewage the it will start backing up fom toilet and shower use too. Your washer may just pump to fast for the existing drain, they most often drain to a 2" line and parts of you bath like the shower, tub and sink can be on this same line.

semperfi3521 · Apr 15, 2009, 05:08 PM

Thanks for your input Bill. It would never be as easy as front yard. Supposedly the drop is right under the main living area, slab foundation, so sounds like exactly the situation you went through. The plumber suggested hydro-wash? I think you mentioned you had it done as well, they basically try to pressure wash everything, he seems to think it would keep it clear for at least 6 moths to a year. I'm sort of skeptical, don't know if it may cause more problems... I've come across trench-less repair adds I'm sure that's going to be a high price as well, but if we don't have to tear up the house the cost may be comparable to doing all the repairs after...

semperfi3521 · Apr 15, 2009, 05:22 PM

I think I will be getting a second opinion, do you think that hydro wash may help before we have to tear the pipes out and replace?

ballengerb1 · Apr 15, 2009, 05:25 PM

Once you get the second opinion will be the time to decide if hydrowashing will help. It it just this one bath thant backs up from the washer, the rest of the home works fine 24/7, right. This would not sound like a main drain backup to me, a branch but not a main.

semperfi3521 · Apr 15, 2009, 05:54 PM

The majority of the back up is in the spare bath. This bath is on the same side of the house as the laundry room. The master bath does get some back up sometimes, the master is on the opposite side of the house...

BRycraft · Apr 16, 2009, 06:42 AM

Hydroscrub will do nothing for back pitched pipes unfortunately, if that is the only real cause. The problem could still be in the main line if the main line is closer to the branch line that is where the laundry is dumping into. All depends on where the main line is in position to where the branch lines tap into, the other side of the house doesn't have a laundry so it doesn't put the volume of water into the pipe so back up from the other side from a shower would probably happen if you were running laundry at the same time, then I would suspect a back up on the other side of the house.. . MY problem was a poor design of a branch line but had a crack in the pipe all the way to the main line, so it all got replaced. Low pipes or back pitched pipes are a real problem that there is no easy fix.
I know there is a sleeve they can install in old pipes when a tear up is not feasible. I don't know how many plumbers actually do this kind of repair but it is a specialty in the trades and uses special tools and materials not common to most plumbers.. I have seen and read about it where they basically reline the pipe with a material like a long fiberglass tube (what it is exactly I don't know for sure) then using a long balloon inside that tube then then inflate it, this then inflates the liner and hardens creating a smooth liner to the inside of the old pipe, like installing a new pipe inside the old one without tearing anything up. I don't have a clue as how expensive this is or who does this but it is a viable option when access is not an option. If that belly in the pipe were smooth then maybe the flow of water would not be so restricted as to back up and would flow freely to the sewer without backing up. Water always seeks the path of least resistance and if that pipe is built up with sludge and cast iron corrosion then that would also add resistance to the draining of the water line. How open that line is depends on what was seen on the camera, how bad the pipes are pitched, how low the belly is and how long it is. Remember each section of cast iron pipe is only 3 feet long and its segmented like a snake so it can flex, drop and rise in the ground and even separate letting in roots from trees. So all this could be part of the problem adding to the restriction of water flow. I don't know if relining is an option or how popular it is in your area but its worth investigating as it might be your best option.
Good Luck Bill

speedball1 · Apr 16, 2009, 09:47 AM

I know there is a sleeve they can install in old pipes when a tear up is not feasible. I don't know how many plumbers actually do this kind of repair but it is a specialty in the trades and uses special tools and materials not common to most plumbers.. I have seen and read about it where they basically reline the pipe with a material like a long fiberglass tube (what it is exactly I don't know for sure) then using a long balloon inside that tube then then inflate it, this then inflates the liner and hardens creating a smooth liner to the inside of the old pipe, like installing a new pipe inside the old one without tearing anything up. I don't have a clue as how expensive this is or who does this but it is a viable option when access is not an option. If that belly in the pipe were smooth then maybe the flow of water would not be so restricted as to back up and would flow freely to the sewer without backing up. Water always seeks the path of least resistance and if that pipe is built up with sludge and cast iron corrosion then that would also add resistance to the draining of the water line. How open that line is depends on what was seen on the camera, how bad the pipes are pitched, how low the belly is and how long it is. Remember each section of cast iron pipe is only 3 feet long and its segmented like a snake so it can flex, drop and rise in the ground and even separate letting in roots from trees. So all this could be part of the problem adding to the restriction of water flow. I don't know if relining is an option or how popular it is in your area but its worth investigating as it might be your best option.

Let me add my personal relining experience to Bills explanation. He was correct in everything except the length of the cast iron pipes. The standard length of hub type cast iron's 5 feet.

Let me explain a bit more about my drainage problem and how I repaired it. 54 year old house. The builder used sub standard cast iron in the drainage. The 4" house main was completely ate up on the bottom of the pipe , blocked with roots and welling up in my living room floor. I was sure that the main had broke in two and I would have to jack hammer up the floor and tunnel under the foundation to transition to PVC, pick up the back bath and move the main outside the house but I had to know what was going on under the slab so a friend suggested running a camera down there. There was no distinct break in the main, however,it was completely ate up on the bottom. That's when Rooter Man of Sarasota and Gulf Coast Florida suggested relining the main, (see image). It took a day to clear the roots and pressure jet clean the main. Next day they came back and relined the main with epoxy. I now have a sewer main that will out last me, (50 year guarantee) and the best part is that I didn't have to, tear up my house and the cost was under half of what I figured to take the main outside around the house. . When they were finished I kept a piece of the epoxy liner to check it out. It was white and had the same thickness of Schedule#40 PVC.
I was amazed at the equipment RooterMan had outside my place. The equipment he had cost upwards of $100,000.00. Hi tech stuff that took a technician to run it. There were 3 men and 2 trucks to do the job. And it was completed in two days. Lottsa difference from the old days when I went out on a sewer call with a Ridged K-60 Sewer Machine and a ladder to get to the roof vent. I just wanted to point out that there's another option besides replacing drainage that the years have ruined. If your pipes are a candidate for a reline job I strongly suggest you look into it before you decide to replace the drainage pipes. I did and saved a bundle in addition to keeping my home intact. Just thought I would share that with you all. Regards and thank you for rating my answer, Tom

BRycraft · Apr 16, 2009, 10:07 AM

Tom is right, that was a typo supposed to have been 5 feet on that cast iron not 3. anyway like he wrote it takes special equipment not standard to typical plumbers. It's a specialty, that requires an experienced trained staff to install it because once it sets up it has to be right on, there is no room for mistakes. I really liked those before and after pics as it clearly shows what I was trying to describe.
Tom you didn't mention the cost for having this done, I have not known anyone to have had this and am curious as the cost vs if they were to dig up and replace the pipes, how much did it overall save you if you don't mind me asking.
Looks like it came out how I read, very smooth, no seams, like a water slide at a park, so I would assume that any low parts to the drain would not hold water as in the old cast iron pipes preventing back ups...
Tom how did you end up finding the people who did this kind of work? Were they listed under plumbers?
Bill

semperfi3521 · Apr 16, 2009, 02:25 PM

Hi Tom and Bill, thank you both so much, you two have been very helpful! I had a plumber suggest clamping the line on the washer to essentially reduce the volume and rate of water drain, any danger to doing this? A geek in me asks this question though, if this house was built like this 30 years ago, and back then all washers were not efficient, why is this happening now? Are washers today using a motor to pump at a faster rate vs. back then they were just gravity and centrifuge? I know the capacity today is much larger, hence more water, is this making sense or am I just rambling now?. Anyway I'm looking for a temporary short term solution until we can save up money to get a re-line like you suggested Tom... so if there's anything you can suggest that may help short term I'd really appreciate it. Like I mentioned our home owners does not cover this, so its all on our dime...
Thanks again!

BRycraft · Apr 16, 2009, 02:54 PM

Always glad to be assistance when I can. Do you have a room for a utility sink? With a utility sink next to the washer the washer could drain into the sink and then it would gravity drain into the drain line reducing your chance of a back up since the velocity of the water would be eliminated dramatically as it wouldn't be forced into the drain line vis the washer extractor pump. That would be a tremendous help to your problems and they are quite cheap, you would just have to have it plumbed into the current drain line. That would be my suggestion if you have the room for a typical utility sink or Wash Basin which you can get at Home Depot for about $50
I don't recommend clamping the drain hose on the washing machine as this will strain the washer motor and prematurely burn it out, like driving with your brakes partially on, you also risk rupturing hoses and seals with the back pressure build up in the washer as it tries to force the water out, this will overheat the motor in my opinion.. If your problem is only back pitched pipes then it really has nothing to do with your current washer vs older models because the pitch happened gradually to a point where now it is adding so much resistance to the water flow that now it is backing up. Did the house shift who knows how and why this pitch happened but its nothing that usually happens overnight, so with pipe erosion comes a place for sludge to build up overtime, and then a slow pitching pipe and you have what you are experiencing now.
These things usually happen over the course of time so its just unfortunate that now you are seeing the results of those effects of time.
Other then that you could get a stackable washer dryer unit and place a utility sink next to that to make room if that is an option. I don't know your washer usage but they are smaller units using less amounts of water and since they are stackable you could make room if you don't have a utility room to place a sink now where they sit. You could try running smaller loads for a shot period but over time that uses much more energy compared to fuller loads but is also a solution depending on how far away the pitch is and how quickly it backs up, that might not be an option, its worth a try.
I wish I could be more helpful, I understand your frustration and desire in seeking a simple solution and I always believe the worst question is the one that is never asked so don't hesitate to ask anything you want to know the answer too, the more knowledge you gain and understanding of a subject you have will only help in determining a correct course of action. Or at least help in making a decision on what to do...
Good Luck... Bill

speedball1 · Apr 16, 2009, 04:55 PM

Tom you didn't mention the cost for having this done, I have not known anyone to have had this and am curious as the cost vs if they were to dig up and replace the pipes, how much did it overall save you if you don't mind me asking.

Figure ballpark figure of $150 per foot. Depending upon the footage. My run of 45 or 50 feet of4" ran me a little over $6000 for time and material when all was said and done. I just takled to the owner and he tells me if the he's had jobs for as little as $1950 for a small run. However, I figured I was going to hafta take out walls, jackhammer up the slab, tunnel under the foundation. Transition to PVC and move the main outside the house and my house torn up for at least two weeks. I estimated $12 to $15000 to complete the job and put my house back in shape. Repiping isn't cheap until you figure the expense of replacing the main. Then it damm sure becomes a viable option.

Tom how did you end up finding the people who did this kind of work? Were they listed under plumbers?

Marks, (massplumber) uncle owns the company. Look in your Yellow Pages for "Rooter Man". This business operates out of Sarasota and covers the Gulf Coast. It's a franchised operation so there are more of them in other citys. For me it was a win-win situation. Regards, Tom

BRycraft · Apr 16, 2009, 06:34 PM

Actually that isn't as bad as I thought it would be and a no-brainer considering the alternative you were facing and you are ultimately getting a seamless pipe that roots can't penetrate. Sounds like it's the waste/drain version of PEX supply lines when its all said and done.. Interesting technology to say the least.
Bill

speedball1 · Apr 17, 2009, 06:45 AM

Semperfi, You ask,

Are washers today using a motor to pump at a faster rate vs. back then they were just gravity and centrifuge? I know the capacity today is much larger, hence more water, is this making sense or am I just rambling now?.

You're not "rambling". The newer washer pumps are more powerful. Especially the new Maytags. When you stop to consider that running traps, (see image) are installed on sewer lines I don't think that little b ell in your main would cause your problem. It's more likely your pipes simply can't handle the volume.
Try this, take a clamp and clamp the washer discharge hose so the volume isn't so great. Now cycle the washer and see if it still backs up. Let me know, Tom

BRycraft · Apr 17, 2009, 07:56 AM

How long have you had this particular washer compared to this problem? if you had this washer for say only a month or 2 and the problem all of a sudden started right after this new washer I would agree with Tom that the line can't handle this new volume of water being put in the line, however if you had this washer for the last several years and you never had back ups before using this washer then its not the washer totally but isn't helping with the pipes. I always look for a common denominator to problems that seem to arise out of nowhere, what has changed? If its not the washer then it's the pipes and since you have no idea when this back pitch has occurred it's the likely cause because you can rule the washer out.. like oh we got this new washer and now we are backing up then in all likelihood the new washer is the problem buts it's a hard stretch to blame a washer that has been in use for several years that hasn't been a problem all this time when you have no idea when the pipe problem occurred. Or we purchased this new high definition TV and we keep tripping the breaker in the living room, never happened before but once we got this new big screen TV this problem started, the problem is the TV. Look for recent changes, something new that has been added or changed, and if the washer isn't new you can bet on the plumbing because why would a washer after several years of fine service all of a sudden be too powerful for the drain lines?
I still disagree with clamping the discharge line on the washer, this puts an extra load on the extract motor and will eventually burn it up over time. This is no different then driving with your brakes lightly applied, it generates heat and wear prematurely. The washers are designed like everything else to have certain parameters to run efficiently, you change these haphazardly and you will cause problems. Imagine changing your discharge hose to a garden hose and you can appreciate the problems that would occur over time if not immediately. Direct drive washers have a clutch that in case of a blockage or a piece of clothing gets by the discharge shoot into the impeller and binds it up it won't burn out the drive motor, so the plastic $7 clutch breaks sparing the motor. Again that's just my opinion not to clamp that hose.
Bill

speedball1 · Apr 17, 2009, 10:18 AM

I still disagree with clamping the discharge line on the washer, this puts an extra load on the extract motor and will eventually burn it up over time.

You disagreed with my suggestion, but failed to put one up of your own. Howzat going to help?
True it will make the pump work a little harder, (I'm not talking about clamping it real tight) But wait a minute! I've been putting backpressure on washer pumps for years without a single complaint. When I suggest installing a compression fitting in the washer stand pipe and making it a closed system so it won't back up through the washer standpipe it puts a extra load on the pump motor when it's forcing the discharge through a pipe that doesn't want to accept it. Never heard you complain about that. Same thing-backpressure! So unless you can come up with a better solution my suggestion still stands. Cheers, Tom

BRycraft · Apr 17, 2009, 12:54 PM

[QuoteYou disagreed with my suggestion, but failed to put one up of your own. Howzat going to help?/QUOTE]
Tom If you had read my previous posts I did offer several other suggestions that I thought would be good viable options all depending on his home layout which I am not privy too, but made suggestions anyway... I suggested installing a utility sink for the washer to discharge into and let it gravity drain into the waste line rather then having it being forced into the line via the washer, this would act no differently then a bath tub draining and if his tubs are not backing up then this would provide a solution, removing that volume and force the washer puts out would help tremendously in giving the water sufficient time to drain from the sink into the line and away from the home, you could also partially restrict the drain opening in the sink slowing the drain even further without putting any additional strain on the washer as it could take as long as feasible for the sink to drain who cares, as long as it doesn't overfill when the washer empties.I don't know his home lay out so I also suggested getting stackable units and place a utility sink next to them if he had to make room, that would also be a viable option that would work, but also said that he would have to have that sink plumbed into the waste line. He could invest in a front load washer that uses less then 1/2 the volume of water a traditional washer uses, my discharge hose is about the size of a garden hose compared to traditional washers, but that he wouldn't know if that would work until the money was spent unfortunately. If those ideas worked they are more permanent solutions that could keep him from having to do any plumbing work at least in the near future depending on the total overall condition of those pipes. I also suggested running smaller loads, but commented that I didn't know his laundry usage habits and know this wouldn't work for my family but it might for him. I did say the downfall to this would add increased energy costs to his utility bills not a big deal considering the alternative. So I thought I tried to give viable options that were more permanent solutions that wouldn't ultimately ruin his washer in the end let alone void the warranty should it be new, something you failed to mention to him should he try this. Should he have a new washer with a warranty and get really unlucky and burn out a motor and the repair tech comes out it will not be covered under warranty if they find the discharge hose restricted.
Do you not agree that those were in fact some solutions I did offer to him? Will he burn out a motor he might me might get lucky and maybe not, if the washer is old then it might be worth the risk considering the overall cost of everything else..

If none of my suggestions are viable and the repair of the plumbing line is not an option in the near future then I would have to agree with your suggestion to restrict the washer line as its his last option and he has to do something yes I do agree, but I did try to offer some solutions that were more permanent fixes for a more serious problem. Although not without risk its his only option if all else fails and would then agree what does he have to lose. It comes down to the worst of 2 evils I guess...

I have given you as much information as well as suggestions I can think of to help you out. Based upon your home and what options are available to you I have no idea what will work or not. I like to give as much information as possible the good and the bad as much as I know so you can make an informed decision based upon that information you have at hand so there are no surprises in the future, it helps having as much knowledge as possible the upsides and downsides to everything as there is always a flip-side to every coin. Obviously everything I have written is based upon my professional experience, knowledge and training. Its only my opinion what I have written. You will have some difficult decisions to make and hope for the very best in whatever decision you do make. I hope you keep me informed in what options are available to you and what actions you ultimately take. You could ultimately do a cost analysis, if you got lucky and didn't burn out a washer they you risked nothing and your problem is solved, if you ran into bad luck and burned out a washer motor every year at a cost of $150 you could replace washer motors probably for the rest of your life without coming near the cost you would pay for fixing those pipes.
Good Luck.. . Bill...