[Akoue]

Just because someone is knowledgeable means they speak for God.

Hmm. Notice I didn't come anwhere close to saying that. Would you like to try again?

I only have to pick up a history book to clarify this one for you. The joint corruption of the Church and State was horrible at those times (hence leading to laws that are implemented today that separate church and state

You're confused about the separation of Church and state, but we can leave that to one side. Recall what I said in my post: Whatever their failings in their personal and political lives, I'm struck by their success in matters of doctrine. What you've just said doesn't speak to what I actually said.

[sndbay]

ultimate_user_name

There is one point in seed to scripture, I would throw out there for reading. It is the individual's choice to use it by planting it, or perhaps permitting it to wash away. "Choice"

There is scripture that says to know this first... NO prophecy of scripture is of a private interpretation. Even in old times phophecy was not because man brought it.. However, holy men of God spake from what The Holy Spirit revealed to them. (this given by the power and perfection of God)
Scripture goes on to say that false prophets are amoung us,, and false teachers who will take priviledges, resulting in their own damnable acts by their own choice.

Scripture tells us Love is the beginning of knowledge (Prov1:7) So to love God which is something that can't be bought. It can Open the mind to knowledge, which is received by their choice. That door opened out of love, to permit what The Holy Spirit has to offer.

As long as we can see ordinances(law of nature) sun, moon, and stars. We acknowledge God's presence.

Scripture says.. I the LORD, will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

No man comes before Christ except who the Father has sent. (John 6:44)

Does it appear anyone gains of their own choice? YES, a choice of love

Does it appear anyone comes to God by some man's work? NO, for it is the Father who draws them near .

Nothing I or anyone else can say will open that door. It is Your Choice to meet God in love.

It is a choice of life or death.... heaven or hell, However on the final day when you will see no light of the sun, no light of the moon, and no light of the stars. Will you hold the seal of knowledge God has offered?

[N0help4u]

I believe as Jakester believes for the most part from everything I have read of his so far.
People want to say they do not believe in the Bible as the word of God and they choose to make up what is convenient to their way of thinking and lifestyle, but God DOES have absolute truths and our ways DO fall short of what God wants of us,
Religion DOES miss the point --it tries to reach out to God with man made ideas of what pleases God but when you pick what you want to believe then you are doing pretty much the same.
The Bible says to seek God in spirit and truth meaning we have to let go of our preconceived ideas and open our hearts to allow God to show us in our spiritual eyes and have a personal relationship with him.
Religions mostly leads the sheep to slaughter.

[cozyk]

Jakester, Concerning post#2, I think you are totally off base and your hostility was uncalled for. I just had to jump in here and deflect some of it off Ultimate.

Ultimate has every right to come on here and voice her/his thoughts on Christianity. I thought many good points were made. You say you welcome being confused by the bible. More power to you. But when someone comes on here and merely presents open minded options you get your undies in a wad.
"Thou dost protest too much" came to me when reading your post. Like you being open to other ideas might show that you just may be wrong. There is nothing wrong with questioning beliefs, I think it shows intelligence.

How do you defend the fact that the majority of the earths population will burn in hell since they are not "saved" Christians? That is what you are saying when you go by the literal letter of the bible. A god of love and goodness would never set up a set of circumstances that would render this kind of torture for billions of his children. How do you even square this with your common sense?

[cozyk]

Thank you for a much more reasonable answer donn.

I was raised in a private school, attended church at least twice a week, and could recite all the chapters of the bible.

Eventually I began straying from the traditional translation of the Bible, since a young age I have always had a problem with hell. This combined with several other things has made me have problems with the church, or any specific religion that claims to be the only way to God.

I have gone to both Church-of-Christ and Methodist churches. Both churches believed that baptism was the only way to be saved, saved from loneliness, separation from God, and hell. I had a problem with that.

In the Methodist church, I saw our pastor, the smartest and kindest person I have ever met, be driven out of the church by people that didn't wish to have a woman as a preacher. I was disgusted.

All in all, I've come to believe that any peace you can find, in any book, is the peace you should seek. And any peace you can find in any person, regardless of whether it's in church or not, is what you should seek.

But when I have tried to explain this view to our local church group, they are offended just as you are now. They think I am ignorant or that I am challenging the belief of God by challenging the existence of hell. Eventually I gave up trying to explain to them. Am I honestly the only person that think hell sounds unfair?

We have similar backgrounds and I am right in there with you. Don't let others offense to your belief get to you. "They know not what they do" As Eckhart Tolle would say, they are "unconscious."

[cozyk]

With certainty I have found my peace.... With all love of heart and prayer... to be all that God created me to be. To have His hand of strength and His will to guide me. And to have evil bow and flee from me. In Christ name and glory forever and ever... My peace is in Christ.

Set your hearts unto all the words which I testify among you this day, which ye shall command your children to observe to do, all the words of this law.

Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.

My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

[He is] the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right [is] he.

They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation

Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy Father thathath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?

Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will shew thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee.

When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

For the LORD'S portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye.

As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings: So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him.

He made him ride on the high places of the earth, that he might eat the increase of the fields; and he made him to suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock;
Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape.

But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.

They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.

And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.

The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.

I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men: Were it not that I feared the wrath of the enemy, lest their adversaries should behave themselves strangely, and lest they should say, Our hand is high, and the LORD hath not done all this.

For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them.

O that they were wise, [that] they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!

How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the LORD had shut them up?

For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves [being] judges.

For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter: Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.

Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures?

To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.

And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted, Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.

See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.

If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.

I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.

Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, [and] to his people.

What?? :confused:
This bible speak just makes my brain spin.

[Wondergirl]

What???:confused:
This bible speak just makes my brain spin.

I don't understand why this is supposed to turn people into Christians after finally seeing the error of their ways. Jesus had more powerful and effective ways to reach a person.

[cozyk]

Jakester, I find your posts carry a tone of anger and sarcasm, and I have no doubt that's the way they were intended.

I am questioning the right of man to claim what God will and will not do, what God does and does not think, and the right of man to set rules by which to confine other men. If there is a hell, the first to burn will be those that have wrote false scripture to mislead their fellow man.

But God doesn't make mistakes, and God would not make a hell. So in my opinion someone lied, and until I know who's lying and who isn't, I will pursue my own path of truth, and I will question anyone that claims to know the will of God, or be able to channel his power, or who imposes rules upon the belief of God.

Another thread in this section is regarding a rule that you are not allowed to eat meat on Fridays, unless of course you're really hungry, or do some repenting and negotiating with God. This is exactly the sort of thing I am talking about.

You like the reddie jakester? terrific, I'll give you a green later to balance it out.

I am just on page one of this thread and what I am reading is just unbelievable.


sndbay, your post confuses me, the first half is interesting, the second half seems like scare tactics, are you saying that I will be burned and torn apart by wild dogs? Please summarize what you meant by that post.

I am just on page one of this thread and what I am reading is just unbelievable.

Nic, the part of your post that I have in bold is like you read my mind.
Jake, if you are a true christian, you are one with a cold hateful attitude.
Sndbay, I have no idea what you are trying to say. Could you condense it?

[jakester]

Jakester, Concerning post#2, I think you are totally off base and your hostility was uncalled for. I just had to jump in here and deflect some of it off of Ultimate.

Ultimate has every right to come on here and voice her/his thoughts on Christianity. I thought many good points were made. You say you welcome being confused by the bible. More power to you. But when someone comes on here and merely presents open minded options you get your undies in a wad.
"Thou dost protest too much" came to me when reading your post. Like you being open to other ideas might show that you just may be wrong. There is nothing wrong with questioning beliefs, I think it shows intelligence.

How do you defend the fact that the majority of the earths population will burn in hell since they are not "saved" Christians? That is what you are saying when you go by the literal letter of the bible. A god of love and goodness would never set up a set of circumstances that would render this kind of torture for billions of his children. How do you even square this with your common sense?

Hey, cozyk - I know you have an axe to grind with me because I called you out on several previous posts. It's nothing personal. Maybe you'll come to see the bible as the truth someday... I certainly hope so.

Secondly, I'm still growing and I know I can be a real jerk sometimes; I have the right to be wrong and I have the right to be a jerk because I am a sinner. I'm the sort of human sludge that Jesus came into this world to save, I suppose. So if I strike you as a real jerk and a real axxhole, you're absolutely right... I don't try to be but sometimes I just am. All I can do is ask you to be merciful and realize that you are not talking to a perfect person. I'm passionate for what I believe... I'm passionate towards others who believe the truth... I will ruthlessly defend my faith in the face of what I believe is contempt and cowardice. Am I infallible? Nope. Am I always right? No way. But if I am wrong, I will listen to reason and take to heart any admonition from someone who is looking at reality with the right perspective. So, I read your posts and I try to think about what you say... sometimes I agree with you but a lot of the time I don't. But I have the right to disagree with you and I believe I have the right to disagree strongly when I feel it is just.

Remember when Jesus was in the temple and he totally destroyed the tables where the money changers were doing business? I bet you $100 that there would be people in America today who would be outraged by what he did and think he was intolerant or wrong... well, that same Jesus is the one who will come back someday and bring justice to those who persist in their disobedience to the truth... so dig that, cozyk. The Jesus of the bible is not some pillowy-soft, hippie looking to smoke a doobie and talk about love... he's the Lord of Salvation now but someday he will bring a sword and destroy those who care not for the truth. And again, if that makes you feel uneasy and makes you think I'm some tyrant of a person who holds to a literal translation of the bible, then that's cool... I've got no problem with that. The moment that you start reading any of the bible and start taking any of it literally is the day that we can really talk.

Lastly, cozyk, how do you think a "true" Christian should act? Like a nice little insipid worm... never disagreeing; never having strong words for people. I'm just curious... I always love how pagan, unbelievers try to tell Christians how they should act.

[N0help4u]

I'm passionate for what I believe.....I'm passionate towards others who believe the truth...I will ruthlessly defend my faith
.

That is how I took what you had to say.

[Wondergirl]

I always love how pagan, unbelievers try to tell Christians how they should act.

That's exactly what they should do. And many so-called Christians never learn a thing from it.

[jakester]

I believe as Jakester believes for the most part from everything I have read of his so far.
People want to say they do not believe in the Bible as the word of God and they choose to make up what is convenient to their way of thinking and lifestyle, but God DOES have absolute truths and our ways DO fall short of what God wants of us,
Religion DOES miss the point --it tries to reach out to God with man made ideas of what pleases God but when you pick and choose what you want to believe then you are doing pretty much the same.
The Bible says to seek God in spirit and truth meaning we have to let go of our preconceived ideas and open our hearts to allow God to show us in our spiritual eyes and have a personal relationship with him.
Religions mostly leads the sheep to slaughter.

Absolutely brilliant! Man, I was beginning to wonder if anyone else saw what I saw in ultimate's ramblings. If I could give you 5 greenies, I would... where is the rate this answer button, anyway?

[jakester]

That's exactly what they should do. And many so-called Christians never learn a thing from it.

Wondergirl - so, it is only that "true" Christians take their cues from pagans about how they are supposed to act?

I'm not sure I follow what you said.

[N0help4u]

I think wondergirl is saying that Christians setting an example should want to learn what non believers expect from Christian behavior to be an example to the unbelievers. From my experience most non believers have expectations that are unrealistic though. Like they have a list of do's and don't s and then their excuse is they don't want to be a goody two shoes like so and so because so and so can't do this and can't do that.

[Wondergirl]

Wondergirl - so, it is only that "true" Christians take their cues from pagans about how they are supposed to act?

There you go again!

[Wondergirl]

I think wondergirl is saying that Christians setting an example should want to learn what non believers expect from Christian behavior to be an example to the unbelievers. From my experience most non believers have expectations that are unrealistic though. Like they have a list of do's and don't s and then their excuse is they don't want to be a goody two shoes like so and so because so and so can't do this and can't do that.

But what can Christians learn about their approaches and attitudes? Certainly Christians can pick up a few clues.

[N0help4u]

All I have ever seen is 'a damned if you do damned if you don't' thing going on with non believers
Like if you preach then you are coming off as holier than thou and that turns us off.
If you tell us about Jesus then you are jamming your religion down our throats
If you (go in a bar,. ) then you aren't holy enough to be telling us anything
If you (don't go into a bar,. ) then you are a goody two shoes and so you can't relate

[Wondergirl]

All I have ever seen is 'a damned if you do damned if you don't' thing going on with non believers
Like if you preach then you are coming off as holier than thou and that turns us off.
If you tell us about Jesus then you are jamming your religion down our throats
If you (go in a bar,.... ) then you aren't holy enough to be telling us anything
If you (don't go into a bar,.....) then you are a goody two shoes and so you can't relate

So what have you learned from that?

[inthebox]

Jakester, Concerning post#2, I think you are totally off base and your hostility was uncalled for. I just had to jump in here and deflect some of it off of Ultimate.

Ultimate has every right to come on here and voice her/his thoughts on Christianity. I thought many good points were made. You say you welcome being confused by the bible. More power to you. But when someone comes on here and merely presents open minded options you get your undies in a wad.
"Thou dost protest too much" came to me when reading your post. Like you being open to other ideas might show that you just may be wrong. There is nothing wrong with questioning beliefs, I think it shows intelligence.

How do you defend the fact that the majority of the earths population will burn in hell since they are not "saved" Christians? That is what you are saying when you go by the literal letter of the bible. A god of love and goodness would never set up a set of circumstances that would render this kind of torture for billions of his children. How do you even square this with your common sense?

Just out of curiosity, are you not condemning others to hell by leading them away from the truth?

If a non-Christian believes you; that your god is so good as to automatically save everyone regardless of what they believe, then what do you make of Jesus Christ's death and resurrection? Was that purposeless?

Or is it as even the apostle Paul wrote, we are the most pitied [ 1 Corinthians 15 ]




G&P

[N0help4u]

That I don't worry about what others think and so I am not limiting my Christianity to what they expect