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arcura · Jan 20, 2009, 11:17 PM

plonak,
I do agree with you.
There is something else to consider and that is what Jesus said about forgiveness.
That is that a person will be forgiven in the manner that person fogives.
When we pray the Lord's prayer we accually ask for that.
Those who forgive will be forgiven.
Jesus is the one who will decide who goes where.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

arcura · Jan 20, 2009, 11:21 PM

plonak,
I do agree with you.
There is something else to consider and that is what Jesus said about forgiveness.
That is that a person will be forgiven in the manner that person fogives.
When we pray the Lord's prayer we accually ask for that.
Those who forgive will be forgiven.
Jesus is the one who will decide who goes where.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

secret_123 · Jan 20, 2009, 11:46 PM

Originally Posted by plonak

I think you are way off. So we all sin.. we all lie or cuss or lust right? We're human, we do it everyday even sometimes w/o knowing it..

so say you're on your way to work and you flip off the car in front of you for cutting you off and then you get in a fatal accident.. you think you will go to hell? because you weren't able to repent to God for your sin of anger? You're saying the same thing about commiting suicide. sin is sin.. I believe God doesn't see it differently

I believe that God takes every situation into his judgement. He looks at the persons heart and decides from there.

Please don't spread false information to people who are curious about Christianity

Wow this is a really good point. Its like if your walking down the street, kick your toe and say "ah jesus christ" then trip again in front of a car and die. That's a reaaaaally good point

adam7gur · Jan 21, 2009, 12:18 AM

I think that a person suffering from schizophrenia cannot be blamed for any of his actions.Furthermore I think that the hell that this person is living here on earth does not assure that this hell is going to be continued after this person's life on earth.
When we think about suicide , most of the times we think about Judas who killed himself,but he had a choise and his greatest sin was not that he betrayed Jesus(Peter did the same thing three times)but that he did not believe that Jesus could forgive him(Peter on the other hand did believe).A person with schizophrenia or under other special circumstances that takes his own life is not to be judged according to the law that says ''do not kill''.
2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

And we are talking about Paul here!He asked thrice but God said to him My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.
Again Paul writes.. 1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Isn't that amazing?Who would thought that Paul , a man of God would deliver someone to Satan?
But Paul knows that the destruction of the flesh has nothing to do with our soul and how the soul is going to be judged by God!

So... secret
God did not give your friend his sickness,it came to him as a result of his sin, just like we carry our own sicknesses because of our sins.God is also under the same law that He gave to us.He is the first to keep it and honour it.Remember that Satan is also called the accuser who stands before God and says to God in other words '' do you see this man Adam?He has done this and that , therefore according to Your law he cannot be blessed but cursed with a sickness'' and God does so because He said so.But the good thing is that the accuser cannot judge our souls , that is God's job.
And remember the law is not given to us by God because He wants to have us under control, but it was given to us so that God can show us what is good for us and what is not!So if I sin(break the law) I am ignoring God's advice ,therefore exposed to danger!
Hope I helped!

secret_123 · Jan 21, 2009, 12:28 AM

Originally Posted by adam7gur

I think that a person suffering from schizophrenia cannot be blamed for any of his actions.Furthermore I think that the hell that this person is living here on earth does not assure that this hell is going to be continued after this person's life on earth.
When we think about suicide , most of the times we think about Judas who killed himself,but he had a choise and his greatest sin was not that he betrayed Jesus(Peter did the same thing three times)but that he did not believe that Jesus could forgive him(Peter on the other hand did believe).A person with schizophrenia or under other special circumstances that takes his own life is not to be judged according to the law that says ''do not kill''.
2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

And we are talking about Paul here!He asked thrice but God said to him My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.
Again Paul writes ..1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Isn't that amazing?Who would thought that Paul , a man of God would deliver someone to Satan?
But Paul knows that the destruction of the flesh has nothing to do with our soul and how the soul is going to be judged by God!

So...secret
God did not give your friend his sickness,it came to him as a result of his sin, just like we carry our own sicknesses because of our sins.God is also under the same law that He gave to us.He is the first to keep it and honour it.Remember that Satan is also called the accuser who stands before God and says to God in other words '' do you see this man Adam?He has done this and that , therefore according to Your law he cannot be blessed but cursed with a sickness'' and God does so because He said so.But the good thing is that the accuser cannot judge our souls , that is God's job.
And remember the law is not given to us by God because He wants to have us under control, but it was given to us so that God can show us what is good for us and what is not!So if I sin(break the law) I am ignoring God's advice ,therefore exposed to danger!
Hope I helped!

by what sin is so huge that he can be given such a huge punishment? He had this illness from about age 8 so how is it that he could commit such an evil sin at that age. Much like a friend I know whose son has Autism, she had to remove a belt from around his neck when he was four as he was trying to "make the pain in my head go away". What sin could a 4 year old commit to cause him such pian? And how can forexample, a baby born with an illness be the reason for it, by saying he/she is ill due to he/she's sins?

adam7gur · Jan 21, 2009, 12:41 AM

Originally Posted by secret_123

by what sin is so huge that he can be given such a huge punishment? he had this illness from about age 8 so how is it that he could commit such an evil sin at that age. Much like a friend i know whose son has Autism, she had to remove a belt from around his neck when he was four as he was tryin to "make the pain in my head go away". What sin could a 4 year old commit to cause him such pian? And how can forexample, a baby born with an illness be the reason for it, by saying he/she is ill due to he/she's sins?

Good question , so let me explain better!
It is written.. Exodus 20:5 for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

So I rephrase.. It was not the kid's sin but his parents' or his grandparents'
You are absolutely right when you say.. ''What sin could a 4 year old commit '' , there is no sin!!

Wondergirl · Jan 21, 2009, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by adam7gur

So I rephrase..It was not the kid's sin but his parents' or his grandparents'

All of what you said earlier was terrific, but this stopped me in my tracks. According to Christianity, the world itself and all its inhabitants fell into the condition of sin at The Fall in the Garden of Eden. Since then, weeds grow in our gardens, mosquitos bite us and can give us diseases, people commit crimes, babies die -- in other words, there's sickness, hate, greed, sadness, and death in the world. If blame must be applied, It goes back to the first person/people who disobeyed God.

450donn · Jan 21, 2009, 10:28 AM

Why not place the blame squarely at the feet of the only one who is to blame?
Satan.
He is the prince of darkness is he not? He has the ability to create havoc in the world. And when the end comes in what ever form you understand that to be ( another debate) is it not satan who will rule the world for a time?

arcura · Jan 21, 2009, 01:29 PM

Don,
It is true that Satan is very much to blame in many ways, but not all.
We are each responsible for our own sins.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

arcura · Jan 21, 2009, 07:36 PM

seeker08,
Please read the story about Adam and Eve.
That is the first example of man using his free will.
God said don't eat of that tree.
Adam and Eve did it regardless of what God commanded.
The reat of your post does not make sense.
If, as you say, everyone will be saved regardless of what they have done why was it necessary for Jesus to come teach otherwise and die on the cross for the salvation of the sins of those who follow and have faith in Him?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

adam7gur · Jan 22, 2009, 12:53 AM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

All of what you said earlier was terrific, but this stopped me in my tracks. According to Christianity, the world itself and all its inhabitants fell into the condition of sin at The Fall in the Garden of Eden. Since then, weeds grow in our gardens, mosquitos bite us and can give us diseases, people commit crimes, babies die -- in other words, there's sickness, hate, greed, sadness, and death in the world. If blame must be applied, It goes back to the first person/people who disobeyed God.

I totally agrree with this and may I add to that ,that we all continue to do what those two did, so no wonder sickness, hate, greed, sadness, and death in the world continue to torture us!If we were better than them it would have been very different!

450donn · Jan 22, 2009, 01:04 PM

God is not a dictator that says" believe in me or else" He is a God of love. Those of you that want to argue against that have not read the bible very much. God gave man free will, the ability to think and to make decisions. If man chooses to not follow the guidelines that God established that is who's fault? Mans, not Gods.
Those that want to argue this further please start a new thread and site chapter and verse.
Otherwise I think it is time to close this thread as it is veering off course of the OP's question.

kipperwitz · Jan 22, 2009, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by secret_123

i had a friend who committed suicide a week ago. he done it beause of bipolar and schizophrenia, which 'god' gave him. how do we know that this wasnt the plan by god, that this was his way to go?

I personally believe that suicide is really murder and in the majority of instances if a person who committed suicide was on trial for that murder their defense would be insanity and insanity means that you were not in your right mind. The jury would find you innocent by reason of insanity which is an illness just as cancer.

Maybe God sees it as he was too sick and put and end to his misery.

I tried to commit suicide 1 1/2 years ago do to bipolarity and several other problems, when I did it I asked God if it was not His Will that I die than my life was in His hands. I can't say that I am happy to be alive but it wasn't my chose at that time and I am learning to live with life.

kipperwitz · Jan 22, 2009, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by jakester

secret_123 -

may I ask how you found this post? Did you do a search on the keyword suicide?

I have good reason to ask so if you wouldn't mind, please let me know.

Thanks.

I was looking for the answer to a question regarding art and saw this question and have a definite opinion on this subject as I tried and failed.

arcura · Jan 22, 2009, 09:43 PM

Adam.
Thanks, brother, for adding that to wondergirl's post.
I do believe that suicide is a sin in most cases, but I feel that there may be exceptions.
I thank God that it is He who will be the judge of that for only He knows the circumstances and heart of those who do such a terrible thing.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

adam7gur · Jan 22, 2009, 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

Adam.
I do believe that suicide is a sin in most cases, but I feel that there may be exceptions.
I thank God that it is He who will be the judge of that for only He knows the circumstances and heart of those who do such a terrible thing.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Amen my brother!

arcura · Jan 22, 2009, 10:39 PM

adam7gur,
Thanks.
Brother Fred

cozyk · Jan 26, 2009, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by 450donn

OK, lets look at it this way. If you take a gun, stick the barrel in your mouth and pull the trigger committing suicide. you have in fact committed murder am I right or wrong? So if you have just blown your brains all over the walls, how if you are dead can you ask for forgiveness for your sins? So as I see it, if you commit suicide there is really no way for you to repent for this sin and therefore you will IMHO be going to Hell with no stops.

This implies that when you die, you have lost all contact with God. Aren't you standing before God then? Personally, I don't believe you ever die. You just change form.

Also, I believe the answer to the OPs question is simple...
WE DON'T KNOW. The only thing I know for sure is that we don't know.
Everyone has their theory, built on their beliefs and opinions, but still. We don't really KNOW.

450donn · Jan 26, 2009, 10:51 AM

I understand your theory and if may be valid. As you say though we do not know for sure. All we do know is that here on earth we need to use our mouth and ask for forgiveness. So, if that were to hold true then if you are dead you cannot get down on your knees and open your mouth and ask God for forgiveness for the sin you just committed.
Personally I do not want to take the chance that I have any unrepented sin in my life when I die and face God one on one for my judgment.

cozyk · Jan 26, 2009, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by secret_123

by what sin is so huge that he can be given such a huge punishment? he had this illness from about age 8 so how is it that he could commit such an evil sin at that age. Much like a friend i know whose son has Autism, she had to remove a belt from around his neck when he was four as he was tryin to "make the pain in my head go away". What sin could a 4 year old commit to cause him such pian? And how can forexample, a baby born with an illness be the reason for it, by saying he/she is ill due to he/she's sins?

Conditions such as autism and schizophrenia are the result of biology gone awry. God did not do it TO you, or take it away from you. It is not a punishment, it's chemistry or abnormal chromosomes, or irregular cells or whatever. When a person is stricken with one of these awful things, we should show compassion. God would never condemn what they do. In "death" no matter how it is met, I see them as finally having peace in God's presence. Just my humble opinion anyway.