[Choux]

From the Independent
"Catholics who claim they have seen the Virgin Mary will be forced to remain silent about the apparitions until a team of psychologists, theologians, priests and exorcists have fully investigated their claims under new Vatican guidelines aimed at stamping out false claims of miracles.

The Pope has instructed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, formerly the Holy Office of the Inquisition, to draw up a new handbook to help bishops snuff out an explosion of bogus heavenly apparitions.

Benedict XVI plans to update the Vatican's current rules on investigating apparitions to help distinguish between true and false claims of visions of Jesus and the Virgin Mary, messages, stigmata (the appearances of the five wounds of Christ), weeping and bleeding statues and Eucharistic miracles.

Monsignor Luis Francisco Ladaria Ferrer, a respected Spanish Jesuit archbishop, has been placed in charge of drawing up the handbook, known as a "vademecum", which will update the current rules set in 1978.

According to Petrus, an Italian online magazine which leans towards conservative elements in the Vatican, anyone who claims to have seen an apparition will only be believed as long as they remain silent and do not court publicity over their claims. If they refuse to obey, this will be taken as a sign that their claims are false.

The visionaries will then be visited by a team of psychiatrists, either *atheists* or Catholics, to certify their mental health while theologians will assess the content of any heavenly messages to see if they contravene Church teachings.

If the visionary is considered credible they will ultimately be questioned by one or more demonologists and exorcists to exclude the possibility that Satan is hiding behind the apparitions in order to deceive the faithful.

Guidelines for the approval of apparitions and revelations were last issued in 1978. They lay down that a diocesan bishop can "either on his own initiative or at the request of the faithful" choose to investigate an alleged apparition. He then submits a report to the Vatican for approval..."

______________

The Pope is showing his respect for atheists in this matter, don't you think. He respects their rationality and objectivity... Don't you think it can be concluded that since the Pope respects atheists, Catholics should respect atheists?

[450donn]

Just because people jump off bridges without a parachute, does that mean that you should too?

[JoeT777]

From the Independent
"Catholics who claim they have seen the Virgin Mary will be forced to remain silent about the apparitions until a team of psychologists, theologians, priests and exorcists have fully investigated their claims under new Vatican guidelines aimed at stamping out false claims of miracles.

The Pope has instructed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, formerly the Holy Office of the Inquisition, to draw up a new handbook to help bishops snuff out an explosion of bogus heavenly apparitions.

Benedict XVI plans to update the Vatican's current rules on investigating apparitions to help distinguish between true and false claims of visions of Jesus and the Virgin Mary, messages, stigmata (the appearances of the five wounds of Christ), weeping and bleeding statues and Eucharistic miracles.

Monsignor Luis Francisco Ladaria Ferrer, a respected Spanish Jesuit archbishop, has been placed in charge of drawing up the handbook, known as a "vademecum", which will update the current rules set in 1978.

According to Petrus, an Italian online magazine which leans towards conservative elements in the Vatican, anyone who claims to have seen an apparition will only be believed as long as they remain silent and do not court publicity over their claims. If they refuse to obey, this will be taken as a sign that their claims are false.

The visionaries will then be visited by a team of psychiatrists, either *atheists* or Catholics, to certify their mental health while theologians will assess the content of any heavenly messages to see if they contravene Church teachings.

If the visionary is considered credible they will ultimately be questioned by one or more demonologists and exorcists to exclude the possibility that Satan is hiding behind the apparitions in order to deceive the faithful.

Guidelines for the approval of apparitions and revelations were last issued in 1978. They lay down that a diocesan bishop can "either on his own initiative or at the request of the faithful" choose to investigate an alleged apparition. He then submits a report to the Vatican for approval..."

______________

The Pope is showing his respect for atheists in this matter, don't you think. He respects their rationality and objectivity....Don't you think it can be concluded that since the Pope respects atheists, Catholics should respect atheists?

What's an "Independent?" Is there a link to the article?

Who's drawing the conclusions in the article?

Why is this of significance to you?

JoeT

[Fr_Chuck]

Yes it is great that the church wants to be careful and properly investigate things. I don't see that much "new" since they have had similar teachings on properly investigating many events.

[Akoue]

Fr_Chuck is right. The Catholic Church has long sought the input of secular scientists in such matters. It has long had secular scientists at Lourdes to examine those who have claimed to be healed miraculously. As well it should.

[Fr_Chuck]

Yes, for example the issues of demons, I know a street front preacher in down town Atlanta that throws a few out of someone every week. And another church that finds them in everyone all the time.

The Catholic Church has a very careful and long procedure to try and prove it is not. If and only if they can not prove it is something else is it accepted as a fact.

[Choux]

I am looking for input on my question based on this article from the Independent:

The Pope is showing his respect for atheists in this matter, don't you think. He respects their rationality and objectivity... Don't you think it can be concluded that since the Pope respects atheists, Catholics should respect atheists?


Thanks.

[450donn]

The Catholic church has fallen on hard times in the USA for the past few years. Is he trying to placate or appease certain groups within the church to try and hold onto the people they have? I have no answer to your question. I find it rather disturbing that the head of the Roman Catholic Church would resort to hiring atheists or any outside influence to establish doctrine for that church. That is not to say that they should not hire outside consultants for bookkeeping building maintenance things like that. But that is not doctrinal.

[cozyk]

- YES - I say good for the Pope for having an open mind and inviting other opinions into the mix.

[De Maria]

....The Pope is showing his respect for atheists in this matter, don't you think. He respects their rationality and objectivity....Don't you think it can be concluded that since the Pope respects atheists, Catholics should respect atheists?

Catholics respect all people. That is why we are honest with them about salvation.

[sndbay]

This entire idea brings some intent to referance a particular occurance fore told in scipture.
Does this include everyone will have to use causion in what they speak of in faith of Christ?

Luke 21:10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
Luke 21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute [you], delivering [you] up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Luke 21:13-14-15 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.Settle [it] therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

[cozyk]

[QUOTE=450donn;1486947]The Catholic church has fallen on hard times in the USA for the past few years. Is he trying to placate or appease certain groups within the church to try and hold onto the people they have?

I always wondered this. Why do churches try so hard to increase membership? Why are they trying to hold onto the people they have? You say the catholic church has fallen on hard times.

1. Do they just want money money money?
2. Do they have their collective feelings hurt if people no longer want to be a part of
their group?
3. Is it the theory that there is power in numbers and they wanted to be more "powerful"

When I was a regular church goer, there was always an emphasis on getting more membership. I did not understand why we were so pushy. People will come if they want to.
Why should it matter to us how big our church was? I honestly don't think it was because
we were worried about their salvation.

[De Maria]

This entire idea brings some intent to referance a particular occurance fore told in scipture.
Does this include everyone will have to use causion in what they speak of in faith of Christ?

Luke 21:10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
Luke 21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute [you], delivering [you] up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Luke 21:13-14-15 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.Settle [it] therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

No sndbay. This is only in reference to supposed Catholics who claim they have seen a miraculous vision in a piece of bread or something. Frequently they do so in order to gain fame or to make money. It really goes to discernment of the spirits:

1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[450donn]

[QUOTE=cozyk;1490488]

The Catholic church has fallen on hard times in the USA for the past few years. Is he trying to placate or appease certain groups within the church to try and hold onto the people they have?

I always wondered this. Why do churches try so hard to increase membership? Why are they trying to hold onto the people they have? You say the catholic church has fallen on hard times.

1. Do they just want money money money?
2. Do they have their collective feelings hurt if people no longer want to be a part of
their group?
3. Is it the theory that there is power in numbers and they wanted to be more "powerful"

When I was a regular church goer, there was always an emphasis on getting more membership. I did not understand why we were so pushy. People will come if they want to.
Why should it matter to us how big our church was? I honestly don't think it was because
we were worried about their salvation.

The Catholic Church has fallen on hard times because of all the law suits against them for the sexual abuse allegations by priests in the past. People are walking away from them.There you go, straight from the mouths of Catholics. But, when I drive by a catholic church on Sunday and see the same 40 or 50 cars in the parking lot every week it does make me wonder. Didn't the head of the catholic church in America say as late as a couple of years ago that some of the arch diecies were broke and they were selling property to pay off all the suits? Or did I misunderstand that?
Why do churches want to increase membership? Easy, we do not want anyone left behind. Yea it is the name of a series of books, but if you are a card carrying christian and a regular member of an active and growing church it is important to you that you try and get all people saved before the end of days.
God does not need my money. He has the riches on a thousand hills. Why would he want my piddly offerings? Except to teach me something.
We have had some real debates in the past. Please don't hold that against me. I do care about your soul and where it will be after Judgment day.
Donn

[De Maria]

The Catholic church has fallen on hard times in the USA for the past few years.

You are wrong. We are experiencing a new Springtime. Conversions to the faith are booming and the Church's are all full to overflowing. Right before the year 2000, the Catholic Church was building new Church's in anticipation of this boon. There was no indication then of what is occurring now.

Is he trying to placate or appease certain groups within the church to try and hold onto the people they have?

No. Throughout the history of Christendom, charlatans have existed. In nonCatholic religions, many people can claim to be healers and prophets. You can see them on television. They have no authority but their own self given authority.

However, these rules are for Catholics. If any Catholic sees a vision which he feels must be announced to the world, it must first be announced to the Church privately and the Church will discern whether it is valid or not.

Since obedience is a key component of God's salvation:
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Those who disobey Christ's Church and announce their vision to the world will effectively eliminate themselves from contention for being declared a true vision worthy of belief.

I have no answer to your question. I find it rather disturbing that the head of the Roman Catholic Church would resort to hiring atheists or any outside influence to establish doctrine for that church.

This is not establishment of doctrine. Doctrine was established by Jesus Christ.

This is discernment of spirits. And it seems very wise to use atheists since atheists have the most to gain by debunking any visions. While, if the atheists can't debunk the vision, then the vision can be considered credible. And if the atheists are converted in the process of attempting to debunk the vision, this would be significant evidence in support of the vision.

That is not to say that they should not hire outside consultants for bookkeeping building maintenance things like that. But that is not doctrinal.

Neither is this question. Doctrine was established by Jesus. The Catholic Church only passes on what Jesus passed on to Her.

[De Maria]

I always wondered this. Why do churches try so hard to increase membership? Why are they trying to hold onto the people they have? You say the catholic church has fallen on hard times.

1. Do they just want money money money?
2. Do they have their collective feelings hurt if people no longer want to be a part of
Their group?
3. Is it the theory that there is power in numbers and they wanted to be more "powerful"

No. It is to fulfill God's mandate who:
1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Therefore we obey the Great Commission:
Matthew 28: 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

When I was a regular church goer, there was always an emphasis on getting more membership. I did not understand why we were so pushy. People will come if they want to.

Obviously you didn't then and don't now, understand the Christian faith.

Why should it matter to us how big our church was? I honestly don't think it was because we were worried about their salvation.

If you were in a Christian Church, you should have been concerned about spreading the Gospel.

[Fr_Chuck]

All churches have to have the funds to pay their bills, all churches like others have bills, electric has to be paid, ministers, music people, janitors all have to be paid and more.

The church I have been going to has to come up with about 150,000 a month just to meet budgets, to include homeless work, and many other social programs that they do.

And the catholic church is in a growth in many areas, Some of the older churches have lost membership but just as population has moved, churches often have to move also.

And of course they have the issue of not enough priests for all of their churches.

So that is why you have fund drives, but churches want members because they love them and want them to find the happiness of the church

[sndbay]

No sndbay. This is only in reference to supposed Catholics who claim they have seen a miraculous vision in a piece of bread or something. Frequently they do so in order to gain fame or to make money. It really goes to discernment of the spirits:


De Maria

Frequently? I did not know that!

1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Agree... so As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting

2 Cr 11:12-15 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

[inthebox]

______________

The Pope is showing his respect for atheists in this matter, don't you think. He respects their rationality and objectivity....Don't you think it can be concluded that since the Pope respects atheists, Catholics should respect atheists?

Respect, rationality, objectiivity... maybe your terms.

I can see that he would want an opposite point of view, one that is already skeptical.

I doubt the pope would view someone who does not believe in God as "rational" or "objective."


Yes, we should respect each other, regardless of belief.








G&P