[wildandblue]

Well I'm saying OSE itself doesn't exist!!
It's the if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one there to hear it story. Some subjective person has to observe what you are calling objective.
If evolution is true, then there is no extinction, since one life form evolves into another. And if you are talking about survival of the fittest to reproduce, that sounds more like survival is based on luck rather than fitness, which seems to contradict itself.

[templelane]

If evolution is true, then there is no extinction, since one life form evolves into another.

That isn't true, there are plenty of evolutionary dead ends that did not lead to life today.

And if you are talking about survival of the fittest to reproduce, that sounds more like survival is based on luck rather than fitness, which seems to contradict itself.

Now here you are stepping onto the toes of some real evolutionary controversy- how much of an influence was natural selection and how much of an influence was luck and genetic drift.

[Tj3]

That isn't true, there are plenty of evolutionary dead ends that did not lead to life today.

You are stating that as fact - the truth is there are ASSUMED evolutionary dead ends. It is a circular argument to call them evolutionary dead ends when evolution has not been proven.

Now here you are stepping onto the toes of some real evolutionary controversy- how much of an influence was natural selection and how much of an influence was luck and genetic drift.

That is not the question here - the question is whether you can propose a feasible means by which any of the examples came about by natural means.

[michealb]

Why are you creating strawmen arguments. I asked for a feasible explanation as to how this might occur naturally.

It's not a straw man argument evolution really doesn't have anything to do with how the first cell came to be. It covers the first replicating life form on. That's all that it talks about to say it involves anything else is wrong. I'm only going to tell you this so many times before I'm just going to start calling you troll.

I have a science degree.

Unless you are a leader in the field of biology and can prove you are who you say you are, this is meaning less. In fact this is less than meaning less this is detrimental to your argument because it means you can't back it up with your words but instead try to sound credibility through false information. So again claiming you have a degree in an Internet argument is pointless so don't do it.

Nice try though. I might add that YouTube would not be my idea of a highly credible scientific source.

Mine either though it still gave you one good idea of how life could have formed. Now it is your turn to say what part is impossible but again as I have said before we don't have a valid theory for how life came to be, we have several ideas but we aren't willing to say one is a fact yet. I know this thrills you because it allows you to build your straw man argument against evolutions because this mean we don't know everything. However it is perfectly acceptable to have god create the first cell and evolution would still be a fact.

[Tj3]

It's not a straw man argument evolution really doesn't have anything to do with how the first cell came to be.

It is because I asked how it could occur naturally. I left it open for an explanation other than evolution, but you kept going back to evolution. But I perhaps evolution is the only hope for a natural occurrence, and it cannot explain how a living cell came to be therefore once again, there is no feasible natural explanation.

I'm only going to tell you this so many times before I'm just going to start calling you troll.

Sigh! Why do people feel the need to use personal abuse when the evidence does not go the way that they like.

Unless you are a leader in the field of biology and can prove you are who you say you are, this is meaning less. In fact this is less than meaning less this is detrimental to your argument because it means you can't back it up with your words but instead try to sound credibility through false information. So again claiming you have a degree in an Internet argument is pointless so don't do it.

If you are suggesting that no one can discuss anything on internet unless they are a leader in the field, then it would be a mighty quiet place. But the truth is that we have access to more resources from the leaders in the field than ever before.

But once again, you go after me because the evidence does not exist to support your position.

However it is perfectly acceptable to have god create the first cell and evolution would still be a fact.

So far the only feasible explanation that we have for the creation of the first living cell then is God.

Now what you are suggesting here is what is called theistic evolution. That is a position that I went to when I realized that the evidence for evolution did not support the theory. I found it to be the least defensible position, and I quickly found that I had to abandon it also.

However, that is getting off topic. If we start assuming that the first living cell was created and designed by an intelligent designer/creator, then that still leaves you with the challenge of coming up with a feasible approach by which these other examples could have occurred naturally.

[michealb]

Sigh! Why do people feel the need to use personal abuse when the evidence does not go the way that they like.

That only seems to happen to you. Maybe it's because you ignore evidence and use your own brand of reasoning.

If you are suggesting that no one can discuss anything on internet unless they are a leader in the field, then it would be a mighty quiet place. But the truth is that we have access to more resources from the leaders in the field than ever before.

Absolutely not this is another example of you totally missing the point of what people are saying perhaps you are incapable of comprehending. What I said is that saying you have a credential is useless on the internet unless you are a known leader in your field because you can't prove it otherwise, I could say I have doctorate from Berkley in biology and that's why I can say you don't know what your talking about but unless I'm willing give you proof of that it's completely pointless.

But once again, you go after me because the evidence does not exist to support your position.

If you ignore evidence or don't comprehend it. What else is there for me to do? If your just going to ingnore any evidence I give and say god did it you are a troll.

So far the only feasible explanation that we have for the creation of the first living cell then is God.

Prove it. Prove god has done anything. Anything all. Prove that a cell can't be created any other way than a all powerful all knowing god.

I'm willing to say we don't know everything. I will even say we may never know for certain how the first cell came to be after all it was over 3 billion years ago trying to solve a mystery that old may be impossible I still don't see unknown knowledge as evidence for god just as unknown knowledge.

I am still interested in also how your going to disprove the video I posted so far you said it's not valid but the only evidence you have is saying god did it.

[Tj3]

That only seems to happen to you. Maybe it's because you ignore evidence and use your own brand of reasoning.

I note that once again you must resort to personal abuse. If you were willing to accept the scientific evidence where it leads, then you would not need to resort to such attacks.

Absolutely not this is another example of you totally missing the point of what people are saying perhaps you are incapable of comprehending.

More abuse.

What I said is that saying you have a credential is useless on the internet unless you are a known leader in your field because you can't prove it otherwise, I could say I have doctorate from Berkley in biology and that's why I can say you don't know what your talking about but unless I'm willing give you proof of that it's completely pointless.

Strawman argument. So far no one is using their credentials to validate their answers - unless I missed something.

If you ignore evidence or don't comprehend it. What else is there for me to do? If your just going to ingnore any evidence I give and say god did it you are a troll.

I have ignore nothing so far, but I see yet more abuse from you.

Prove it. Prove god has done anything. Anything all. Prove that a cell can't be created any other way than a all powerful all knowing god.

I am just following up on the statement in your mlast message. If you believe that you have a feasible method by which a living cell came into existence, then let's deal with it - post it, or provide answers to the issues that I raised with your "youtube video".

I'm willing to say we don't know everything. I will even say we may never know for certain how the first cell came to be after all it was over 3 billion years ago trying to solve a mystery that old may be impossible I still don't see unknown knowledge as evidence for god just as unknown knowledge.

To show something is feasible does not require that we know everything. I already responded to that strawman argument previously.

I am still interested in also how your going to disprove the video I posted so far you said it's not valid but the only evidence you have is saying god did it.

Perhaps you should actually read my messages. I actually said nothing of the sort and did not mention God at all in my response, but I did raise issues with the proposal based upon science.

BTW, as I said in the OP, if you respond with personal abuse, that is in and of itself an admission that you have no answers. If you continue to be abusive, then that would suggest to me that you have nothing more of substance to offer on the topic. Your position would be better served by acting in a mature respectful manner. Just some friendly advice.

[Credendovidis]

Hello all ! Back from overseas again, and time to react to previous entries here.

BTW, I should take this opportunity to note that "Pericles" in the OP is a prior userid for Cred.

Indeed. But what has that to do with the question? I did not mention "Pericles" at all. Just as I did not mention in that same question that the "Tom" mentioned is one and the same as Tom Smith, wellknown at AW as Toms777 and here as Tj3.

Prior to this, as stated, there was concensus that there were two option - either natural evolution or creation by God.

Not correct. Toms memory seems to be very poor. It was Toms who "decided" that what he posted was covered by general consensus, nothwithstanding that there were two lines of thought : Toms religious peers who agreed, and all others who disagreed with Toms conclusion.

No one was able to put forward any third option.

As stated in the question : THAT IS NO OSE SUPPORT FOR "GOD'S" EXISTENCE.
But I (as Pericles) did propose several alternative options, which all were rejected by Toms. The same Toms, who can not produce any real OSE himself for "God's" existence. (Because that is impossible).

After these were posted many many times, "pericles" kept saying that he could not see the postings, ...

I never stated that I could not see the postings. I stated that I could not see the evidence for what Toms claimed to have posted (i.e. that that was evidence for "God's existence).

... In fact, except for one of these examples, no one was even able to come up with any possible explanation at all.

A complete lie. Many of these items were discussed "ad nauseum".
It is Toms who refuses to accept all alternatives, including that absence of proof for one view is no OSE for the opposite view.

Cred likes to call this a list. It never was a list. This is simply a compilation of a few of the examples which were posted on the other site which the evolutionist were unable to address.

Indeed I call it a list. A list, just as there can be thousands of such lists. Lists that do not prove anything. Because the existence of "God" can not be OSE proved in any way. All you can do is BELIEVE that.

:rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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[Credendovidis]

Everyone will be talking about a different "God".... you have to be specific.

Dear Mary Sue : I fail to agree. For me the entire argument is about that you can not "prove" the existence of any entity by showing a list of queries and - if one disagrees with the reactions - declare such list "proof" for the existence of such entity.
Even a kindergarten student can understand that that is no proof...
As acceptable proof there is only one item : OSE for "God' existence" itself.
But as that can never be provided, all one can do is BELIEVE in such an entity.

:)

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[Credendovidis]

Tj3 to Michealb :

I note that once again you must resort to personal abuse.

More abuse.

Strawman argument.

I see yet more abuse from you.

Perhaps you should actually read my messages.

Yes, that is a typical Toms777 reaction.

Michealb : there is actually little sense in arguing with Toms777 (Tj3). He is wellknown for twisting words and meanings, and loves to post that he feels "abused" if you disagree with him, and/or show his "logic" to be totally invalid.

Toms list is - as I stated in the topic question - an interesting list, that can be replied to by evolutionists. Now or in the future. In full or when more evidence becomes available. But that is not the issue here.

The claimed lack of evidence for evolutionary queries is not - and can never be - OSE for the existence of a Creator. Only direct OSE for "God's" existence will be that. But as we all know such evidence is not and never will be available.

Toms list is nice list of queries for the evolution board. But it is no OSE for "God's existence"!!
Going into details on Toms list is a waste of time, if the target is the discussion of "God's" existence. There is no such evidence. And Toms list - and thousands of similar lists - can not change that...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

.

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[Tj3]

Tj3 to Michealb :

Yes, that is a typical Toms777 reaction.

Yes, it is my reaction to abuse. I believe in respectful dialogue. When one party chooses to resort to abuse, that is an admission that they have no answers.

Toms list is - as I stated in the topic question - an interesting list, that can be replied to by evolutionists. Now or in the future.

A claim is empty when so far there have been no feasible answers given. Indeed you even admitted that evolution has no answer to how the first living cell originated.

I don't know why atheists like calling it a list - these are but a few of a large number of discrete examples. Maybe a fixation on lists :p

The claimed lack of evidence for evolutionary queries is not - and can never be - OSE for the existence of a Creator.

Science often looks at what is feasible, and when all non-feasible options are removed, accepts that as evidence of the remaining feasible option. Perhaps you are not aware that there is no direct evidence for many of the planets which have been found or sub-atomic particles found. Observations were made of other things happening and they looked at what feasible events would cause this evidence.

So you can reject this approach if you wish, but the approach that I am taking is both logic and scientific.

[Tj3]

Indeed. But what has that to do with the question? I did not mention "Pericles" at all.

You need new glasses. Look under the Pond Scum example in your post.

Not correct. Toms memory seems to be very poor. It was Toms who "decided" that what he posted was covered by general consensus, nothwithstanding that there were two lines of thought : Toms religious peers who agreed, and all others who disagreed with Toms conclusion.

As you wish, Cred, but I asked the question for some time prior to posting the first example, and no one (that is right no one) disagreed with that approach, including you. The first person to disagree at any point was you, AFTER I had posted serveral of these examples and you had no answers.

But let's not just toss this back and forth like this. Let's resolve it here and now. If there is a third option, post it here.

I never stated that I could not see the postings.

A complete lie. Many of these items were discussed "ad nauseum".

Now who has memory problems :D

Indeed I call it a list. A list, just as there can be thousands of such lists.

As I said, it must be a "list fixation" with some folk! :p

[michealb]

He wasn't asking for direct evidence he is asking for objective supported evidence. Indirect evidence can be overwhelming as long as you have several different sources for that indirect evidence. Your twisting words again.

I am still waiting for you to disprove the video or prove god take your pick so far you have done neither.

[Tj3]

He wasn't asking for direct evidence he is asking for objective supported evidence. Indirect evidence can be overwhelming as long as you have several different sources for that indirect evidence. Your twisting words again.

I am still waiting for you to disprove the video or prove god take your pick so far you have done neither.

Michael,

I guess that when the evidence does say what you'd like, you want different evidence. I understand that.

It appears that you do not wish to read what I said - now twice I have pointed out that I already responded to your video, but apparently yopu have not read my original post or the second one either.

You brought up God as the feasible answer to the first living cell - I didn't. You said (Post #63):

"However it is perfectly acceptable to have god create the first cell and evolution would still be a fact."

I then went on to agree that we could leave it there and that would leave you to provide feasible ways in which the other events could occur.

Now if this is the way that this topic is going to degenerate, then it appears that there is likely no more to discuss. I want to discuss the facts - if the barrel is dry on your end, then let's just conclude this now. I'd like to discuss the topic, but I honestly do not have time to play games. Do youn wish to have a serious respectful discussion or not?

[inthebox]

:D

. What I said is that saying you have a credential is useless on the internet unless you are a known leader in your field because you can't prove it otherwise, I could say I have doctorate from Berkley in biology and that's why I can say you don't know what your talking about but unless I'm willing give you proof of that it's completely pointless.


I will even say we may never know for certain how the first cell came to be after all it was over 3 billion years ago trying to solve a mystery that old may be impossible I still don't see unknown knowledge as evidence for god just as unknown knowledge.

.

Even this evolutionary story telling site does not agree with your 3 billion year time frame.


Evolution From the Beginning to the First Cell.

"About 1.3 billion years ago the first eukaryote (a single cell organism with a complex inner structure) "


Notice how there is no OSE for this - just theory. ;)


Genetic Explanation For Moles' Poor Eyesight

Not a "religious site" nor a creationist site, but I point out their facts.

"The genetic information the authors amassed shows that the internal defects in the animals' eyes are not the result of an adult degenerative condition but because development of the eye lens fibres, which starts normally, is not completed. The expression of some genes that are central to eye development is also abnormal."

So the mole had sight, then due to abnormal genes LOST it?
How did the mole have sight in the first place? Is it use it or lose it? Why did natural selection and evolution develop a super sight that can "see" in no visible light?


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But you want OSE that God exists, okay, I will pray that Cred, Michael B will post more anti- religious statements, and question God's existence. Lets see if it comes true :D

[Tj3]

I wonder what, if anything, that atheists would accept as OSE for God. If I wandered through a field and found a house with a computer, a television, air-conditioning, and lights - would that be OSE that a person had been there even though I did not see the person, or have any evidence of human DNA? Or is that evidence of a naturally occurring event.

As I said before, scientists determine the existence, the size, mass and orbit of planets around other suns that they cannot see by looking at the wobble in the sun. Is that OSE for that planet? Yes, indeed it is, because there is no feasible alternative.

When scientists discover new sub-atomic particles, do they see them before they will accept their existence? No, many if not most have been discovered on the basis of the effect that they have because that is the only feaisble alternative to explain the effect.

What about gravity? We can see the effect, but we have no direct evidence of gravity itself. The same is true of time (which, BTW, is affected by gravity). And yet I would hope that everyone on here accepts the exists of both time and gravity.

I could go on and on. I wonder why when it comes to God, and the overwhelming evidence, why atheists who claim that they want scientific evidence, reject the scientific method and scientific standards? Is it because in their minds, the evidence points to something that they simply cannot and will not accept? If so, that is no longer science, but it is religion and they hold their beliefs on the basis of faith, not OSE.

What OSE is there for a natural start to life? Let's see what this scientific organization says:

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Exactly how life started is uncertain. Maybe dormant deep-frozen micro-organisms hitched a ride on a comet or asteroid. Maybe basic life first started deep beneath the surface, where conditions were more stable, and moved up through cracks and fissures as conditions above ground improved. Maybe the chemical soup in the oceans favoured simple self-replicating carbon-based molecules. These molecules might have increased in complexity and number over millions of years, until we have the diversity of life we see around us today. It is almost certain that all life developed from the same single source, as all life discovered relies on has the same complex molecule - DNA.
(Source: Natural Environmental Science Research Council (UK))
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BTW, I am sure that Michael will enjoy this YouTube video as much as his last one!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCWM3TqwcBw

[Credendovidis]

A claim is empty when so far there have been no feasible answers given.

Indeed : the claim that "God" exists was never accompanied by any feasible answers regarding factual support, nor by any OSE.

Indeed you even admitted that evolution has no answer to how the first living cell originated.

That is a deliberate lie. I really question here your repeated attempt to lie while you know it is a lie.
Is that the new general approach now for your Christian Discernment Resources and/or Last Days Bible Conference ?

All I stated was that Abiogenesis is not part of Evolution. Evolution starts with the first living cell.

I don't know why atheists like calling it a list - these are but a few of a large number of discrete examples.

There is no doubt that this is a list of queries towards evolution. At the other hand it is not a list towards any format of OSE for "God's" existence.

Science often looks at what is feasible, and when all non-feasible options are removed, accepts that as evidence of teh remaining feasible option.

Precisely the reason why such arguments remain a hypothesis (= a proposition). They only become scientific facts or Theory when there is Objective Supporting Evidence.

Perhaps you are not aware that there is no direct evidence for many of the planets which have been found or sub-atomic particles found. Observations were made of other things happening and they looked at what feasible events would cause this evidence.

I never stated that science can prove everything today. See also the previous line I posted.
The Cern experiment is a perfect example on how a thesis is tested against the reality.
If Cern can not prove the various proposed sub-atomic particles to exist, they will remain a hypothesis till proven in the future by other experiments. It doesl not mean that such sub-atomic particles do not exist.

So you can reject this approach if you wish, but the approach that I am taking is both logic and scientific.

No it is not. It is NOT LOGICAL at all, and it is PSEUDO-SCIENTIFIC - just as all other ICR "science"!!

To conclude : your "list" contains various interesting questions on evolution. But it does not contain a single iota of evidence for the existence of "God"!!

The only acceptable "proof" for the existence of "God" is OSE for the existence of "God"!!

The only acceptable "proof" for the existence of "God" is OSE for the existence of "God" !!!

THE ONLY ACCEPTABLE "PROOF" FOR THE EXISTENCE OF "GOD" IS OSE FOR THE EXISTENCE OF "GOD"!!

Anything else is based on BELIEF !

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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[Tj3]

Indeed : the claim that "God" exists was never accompanied by any feasible answers regarding factual support, nor by any OSE.

Same old, same old.

Apparently you have no answer to the questions raised.

That is a deliberate lie. I really question here your repeated attempt to lie while you know it is a lie.

False accusations get you nowhere. But prove me wrong - post the feasible answer as to how the first living cell occurred naturally.

All I stated was that Abiogenesis is not part of Evolution. Evolution starts with the first living cell.

Thus evolution has no answer. And if there is no answer as to how life started, then the rest of the theory falls flat. You have nothing if creation does not occur in the first place.

I never stated that science can prove everything today

And no one ever asked for that.

I see no reason to respond to the rest. All your attempts to distract from the question shouts that you have no answer.

[Credendovidis]

Indeed : the claim that "God" exists was never accompanied by any feasible answers regarding factual support, nor by any OSE.

Same old, same old.

But correct. The claim that "God" exists was NEVER accompanied by any feasible answers regarding factual support, nor by any OSE.

Apparently you have no answer to the questions raised.

The questions on your list are questions about evolution. This topic's question was clear : it questioned the validity of your "list" towards it's claimed "proof" for the existence of "God". That validity is however zero. I have no need to reply to your evolution questions here. Try the evolution board for that.

Indeed you even admitted that evolution has no answer to how the first living cell originated.

That is a deliberate lie. I really question here your repeated attempt to lie while you know it is a lie.

False accusations get you nowhere. But prove me wrong - post the feasible answer as to how the first living cell occurred naturally.

Your original statement I refer to here is indeed a deliberate lie.
Any questions towards evolution are irrelevant in this respect. See my previous line.

All I stated was that Abiogenesis is not part of Evolution. Evolution starts with the first living cell.

Thus evolution has no answer.

Abiogenesis is not part of Evolution. Evolution starts with the first living cell.

I see no reason to respond to the rest. All your attempts to distract from the question shouts is that you have no answer.

Of course you don't like to respond. Because you know that your list is no "proof" for the existence of "God".

The only acceptable "proof" for the existence of "God" is OSE for the existence of "God"!!

The only acceptable "proof" for the existence of "God" is OSE for the existence of "God" !!!

THE ONLY ACCEPTABLE "PROOF" FOR THE EXISTENCE OF "GOD" IS OSE FOR THE EXISTENCE OF "GOD" !!!

Anything else is based on BELIEF !

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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[Tj3]

But correct. The claim that "God" exists was NEVER accompanied by any feasible answers regarding factual support, nor by any OSE.

Keep singing that chorus - maybe it will help drown out the facts.

The questions on your list are questions about evolution.

I asked only for a natural explanation - have another look. Perhaps you are trying to point to evolution because you know evolution has no answers, and you are trying to avoid that fact that there is no other answer either.

Read this line from my original post:

"The usual respond to these issues from non-Christians are insults, ad hominems, and ridicule - but no answer. That is in and of itself an admission that no answer for a natural explanation exists."

So far, this has been your primary response. If there are answers, post them here and now.