[Credendovidis]

But we also have what you do not and that is God.

Dear Fred. I do not need myths , wild claims, and lot's of religious hot air to guide my life...
Peace and kindness too,
John

:)

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[arcura]

Credendovidis,
So you believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Credendovidis]

So you believe.

No Fred. I do NOT believe in a religious manner.
I see no reason nor OSE for the existence of any super-natural deity and/or power.

As I stated many times before : I can guide my life within the limits of moral and ethical thinking with a social "tang" for the relation with and my concern for my fellow co-Homo Sapiens Sapiens without any need for myth and religious beliefs.

I am sure that most people could do the same had they not been brainwashed as child with religious ideas, and as adult had really tried to live on their own strength.

Peace and kindness to you too,

John

:)

.

.

[Alty]

Fred, although your beliefs bring you peace that doesn't mean that someone without those same beliefs hasn't found peace within themselves.

You do not need God in order to be a good person, to live by an ethical code.

It never ceases to amaze me that Christians seem to think that they're the only "good" people on earth. God doesn't make you good, you make you good.

[cogs]

... God doesn't make you good, you make you good...

That's true, we have to work to make us good. But we are only able to do that with the help and conviction of the holy spirit. It's repentance, and is required, regardless of how good we are to our neighbor. If we should do good works from ourselves, they are counted as nothing to god. But out of faith to god, and at the direction of the holy spirit, we're not doing it of ourselves, but letting god work his will through us.

[inthebox]

Fred, although your beliefs bring you peace that doesn't mean that someone without those same beliefs hasn't found peace within themselves.

You do not need God in order to be a good person, to live by an ethical code.

It never ceases to amaze me that Christians seem to think that they're the only "good" people on earth. God doesn't make you good, you make you good.

What "good" or "ethical code" are you referring to?

What if Hitler's " ethical code" was to survive and pass on genetic information by what ever means necessary because certain races are superior . Was Hitler "good?" :confused:

What makes one ethical code better than another's ?
What make one person more good than another if there is no standard?
How is that standard derived?



I don't know what " Christians " you associate with but Roman 3:23 ;)


I cannot be "good " enough but by the GRACE of Jesus Christ's death and Resurrection :D

[arcura]

inthebox
Good questions.
I believe that there are a lot of good peop;e in this world who are not Christians and a lot that are.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Credendovidis]

What "good" or "ethical code" are you referring to?
What if Hitler's " ethical code" was to survive and pass on genetic information by what ever means necessary because certain races are superior . Was Hitler "good?"

Are you starting up that old hat "Hitler was an Atheist" again? Than I'll respond with the OSE supported position that Hitler was a Roman Catholic Christian with lot's of other spiritual ideas...

What makes one ethical code better than another's ?
What make one person more good than another if there is no standard?
How is that standard derived?

Basically all systems use the same basis : "the Golden Rule", a standard that is millennia older than the Jewish and Christian cultures.

I cannot be "good " enough ....

At least you could try. It would make discussions here a lot more friendlier...

:rolleyes: :D :rolleyes: :D :rolleyes:

.

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[arcura]

Cred,
There are a lot of friedley folks here.
Try being friendly with them rather than accusing them.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Credendovidis]

Try being friendly with them rather than accusing them.

But some are certainly not friendly Fred!!

Note that I react on what THEY post, Fred.
Don't blame the messenger. Blame the one who posted it first him/her self!!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

.

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[DrJ]

This...



Thread...




Will...




Never...





Die!!

[cogs]

Threads always die, just like hitler, who was not following the golden rule.
From the bible's characterization of god's work, we can see that hitler did not follow god, as god and jesus spoke against murder. And the very people god set out to be a holy nation, hitler attempted to exterminate, as if he were god. And by the way, they say hitler committed suicide.

[arcura]

Cred,
You often use a generality that accuses all Christians of being un-christian-like.
Please stop doing that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sassyT]

[QUOTE]

When you say "you" I don't know if you are speaking directly to me or the collective "you" but you apparently don't know what I believe.

That's okay... and beside the point.

Faith is exactly where it is at. Faith is ALL we have. If we had KNOWLEDGE, we would not need Faith... because we would simply know.

What THEN would be the purpose of Faith?

DrJ. Let me make myself clearer. I agree with all of the above but let me explain where I am coming from. I KNOW God as much as I know Goerge Bush is president, but do I KNOW that God is this one true God who created the heavens and earth? The Answere is NO, I do NOT know that, however I believe he is, I have FAITH the God I KNOW is the One true God the creator of the Heavens and the earth. I have Faith in Him whom I have come to KNOW exists. So yes you are right I do have Faith because I don't know everything, but I do know there is a God. I don't know why you think it is impossible to know God exists. It is not at all. Many people now and in the past have known God exists.

I am not the one that would have sank on the water... although, I understand what you were trying to say.

Peter knew God existed but needed faith to believe he could walk on water.

But hear this: This thread and discussion went way out of control. The argument here is not about the existence of or belief in God. The argument is simply whether SassyT, or any human for that matter, KNOWS that God exists.

After God parted the Red Sea, Do you think Moses would have said he KNEW God existed or do you think he would have said he "BELIEVED" God existed?

It is one thing to "believe" God exists... it's unfortunate that so many do not... however, the point that was trying to be made (which seems SO ridiculous now) is simply that to actually "know" that God exists would require concrete proof... concrete proof that she, nor any other human being, has... at least to our (the collective "our") knowledge.

What kind of concrete proof are you talking about? Do you mean I would have to give concrete proof to the world or personal concrete proof that confirms His existence to me?

[sassyT]

DrJizzle,
In case you did not know a Christian faith is far more than just belief.
It is belief plus trust and a knowing that others can't seem to understand.
I KNOW my redeemer lives.
I Know God exists.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Yes Acura, I don't know why these people don't get it. :confused:: :confused:

[DrJ]

Sassy... let me try to get on the same level as you. I truly believe, in my heart of hearts that God exists. So much so that I really want to say that I KNOW He exists... in fact, I believe that I DO know He exists! I know... totally contradictory... but in reality, I cannot actually say that I know He exists based on what it takes to truly KNOW something.

Are you married? It's like being married for 50 years... your significant other loves you every day and shows it every day. There has never been a day in your life that you haven't felt the love of your spouse.

No matter how much you believe that your spouse loves you, you can, unfortunately, never KNOW that he/she does. You cannot know their heart. Only God can, right? In the same right, we cannot KNOW God's existence... no matter how much we believe that we do.

No one... not one... has ever seen God.

No one... not one... can ever prove God.

Not even when the seas were parted has anyone ever seen God.

That is why Faith is required.

God does not want anyone to know His existence. If He did... we simply would ALL know... why not, right?


Also... again, Im not saying anything about you "Knowing God"... that is something completely different.

[sassyT]

Dear Fred. I do not need myths , wild claims, and lot's of religious hot air to guide my life ....
Peace and kindness too,
John

:)

.

You Just don't know God like we do, that is why He is a myth to you. But no worries, soon enough when you die you will be up for a rude awakening of Knowing God... :D The look on your face will be priceless, I look forward to that.. hehe :D

[HistorianChick]

You Just dont know God like we do, that is why He is a myth to you. But no worries, soon enough when you die you will be up for a rude awakening of Knowing God... :D The look on your face will be priceless, i look forward to that..hehe :D

While I normally do not agree with Creden's statements about faith and knowing God, nor do I particularly like the way in which he says things at times, he has a right to say whatever he wishes. That is part of free will. We all have the ability to choose what we believe and what we accept as fact and faith.

That being said, I believe that God exists. I believe it in my heart of hearts, and yes, I would say that I know He exists because I can look around and see what He created.

But, that is MY opinion. That is MY belief. I cannot make anyone else believe what I believe. I can live my life in such a way that demonstrates what I believe, I can tell other people why I believe in God, but ultimately, I cannot MAKE them believe.

So, you see SassyT, I agree with you. I agree that God does exist.

But, you offended me when you said that you "look forward" to seeing Creden's face when he realizes after death that there is a God. Because, what does that mean, according to the Bible and according to what you believe, those who do not believe will be sent to an eternity in Hell.

In essence, you are saying that you will smile when Creden is sent to Hell. That, my friend, is sad.

It doesn't matter WHAT Creden says to you or anyone else, according to your belief system, you should not joy in another's unbelief. No matter WHAT they say.

[sassyT]

[QUOTE]

Sassy... let me try to get on the same level as you. I truly believe, in my heart of hearts that God exists. So much so that I really want to say that I KNOW He exists... in fact, I believe that I DO know He exists! I know... totally contradictory... but in reality, I cannot actually say that I know He exists based on what it takes to truly KNOW something.

Okay so help me understand, what does it take to Truly KNOW something? Do you Believe Hitler Existed or do you KNOW Hilter existed? Do you believe Queen Elizabeth Exists or Do you Know She exists?

Are you married? It's like being married for 50 years... your significant other loves you every day and shows it every day. There has never been a day in your life that you haven't felt the love of your spouse.

No matter how much you believe that your spouse loves you, you can, unfortunately, never KNOW that he/she does. You cannot know their heart. Only God can, right? In the same right, we cannot KNOW God's existence... no matter how much we believe that we do.

Yes I am married but you are not comparing apples to apples here. This comparison would be effective if I had said "I know God Love me" however that is not what I am saying. I BELIEVE and Have Faith that God loves me, but I KNOW He exists.
I know my spouse exists but yes I can never know with certainty if he loves me or not.

No one... not one... has ever seen God.

This is just your belief, because how do you KNOW that no one has never seen God??
My Brother says he saw God/Jesus when he was on his death bed dying from full blown AIDS (which God has healed). I believe him, you on the other hand, may not believe he saw God but you can never know unless you were in the room with him. There have been many other people who have given accounts of seeing Jesus, or Angels or supernatural beings.. So you can not say the no one has ever seen God, that may be your opinion but it is not a fact.

No one... not one... can ever prove God.

Well, this is also not necessarily true because there are different kinds of "proof" and what one considers concrete proof may not be proof to another so it is subjective.
Maybe a better way to say it is "No one can ever Scientifically Prove God" and that is the proof most people are looking for however Science is the study of NATURAL Phenomina and God is SUPERnatural.

Not even when the seas were parted has anyone ever seen God.

Yes but they were able to see His power part the red sea. No one has ever seen the wind but we all know it's there because we see its effects. Same with God, even though Moses did no see God, he was able to see the effects of God.

God does not want anyone to know His existence. If He did... we simply would ALL know... why not, right?

I believe God wants us to seek Him and find Him and come to know His existence, and many people who seek Him have come to the knowledge of His existence. But there are many who Don't want to Know whether He exists or not and some who have just said he is non existent.

[sassyT]

While I normally do not agree with Creden's statements about faith and knowing God, nor do I particularly like the way in which he says things at times, he has a right to say whatever he wishes. That is part of free will. We all have the ability to choose what we believe and what we accept as fact and faith.

That being said, I believe that God exists. I believe it in my heart of hearts, and yes, I would say that I know He exists because I can look around and see what He created.

But, that is MY opinion. That is MY belief. I cannot make anyone else believe what I believe. I can live my life in such a way that demonstrates what I believe, I can tell other people why I believe in God, but ultimately, I cannot MAKE them believe.

So, you see SassyT, I agree with you. I agree that God does exist.

But, you offended me when you said that you "look forward" to seeing Creden's face when he realizes after death that there is a God. Because, what does that mean, according to the Bible and according to what you believe, those who do not believe will be sent to an eternity in Hell.

In essence, you are saying that you will smile when Creden is sent to Hell. That, my friend, is sad.

It doesn't matter WHAT Creden says to you or anyone else, according to your belief system, you should not joy in another's unbelief. No matter WHAT they say.

Yes you are right HistoricChick, I should be deeply greived that Cred will probably spend iternity in Hell according to the Word of God. I never thought of that... I repent, God forgive me :(