[arcura]

From the New Jerusalem Bible.
Luke 6: 39. He also told them a parable, "Can one blind person guide another? Surely both will fall into a pit?
40. Disciple is not superior to teacher; but fully trained disciple will be like teacher.
41. Why do you observe the splinter in your brother's eye and never notice the great log in your own?
42. How can you say to your brother, `Brother, let me take out that splinter in your eye,' when you cannot see the great log in your own? Hypocrite! Take the log out of your own eye first, and then you will see clearly enough to take out the splinter in your brother's eye.
43. `There is no sound tree that produces rotten fruit, nor again a rotten tree that produces sound fruit.
44. Every tree can be told by its own fruit: people do not pick figs from thorns, nor gather grapes from brambles.
45. Good people draw what is good from the store of goodness in their hearts; bad people draw what is bad from the store of badness. For the words of the mouth flow out of what fills the heart.
How many "Christians" that you know tell others that they are going to hell when God alone will be the judge on who goes where?
How many do you know who DO NOT practice Christian love as Jesus taught with both word and example?
Are there any who post here doing those things?
We all are sinners to one extent or the other so as Jesus says we all have some logs or foreign objects in our eye that needs to be taken care of before we charge others about the specks or foreign objects in their eyes.
:) Peace and kindness,:)
Fred

[inthebox]

Agree, we are alll sinners in need of God's grace; therefore, we should be graceful to other sinners.

We should be aware of the example we provide.

[Galveston1]

Everyone thinks his religion is correct. Obviously, that cannot be true. We discuss, we quote, we sometimes argue. The discussion and quoting can be a good thing if it causes us to re-examine our faith. It will either strengthen it or cause us to change it. Hate does not have to enter into it.

So, Fred,

Am I wrong? Does the Catholic Church teach that you will go to Hell if you do not take communion in the Catholic Church, or are not baptised in the Catholic Church?

[simoneaugie]

Excellent question. However, I suspect that any answer given will be filtered through dogma and subjected to mental gymnastics by most.

Perhaps a better question is, what is love? If all viewpoints were filtered through the answer to that, there would be no argument. In time, there would be no need to ask the question.

[Credendovidis]

Hello dear Fred !

How many "Christians" that you know tell others that they are going to hell when God alone will be the judge on who goes where?

Too many !!! It even seems that the concentration of such "christians" increases on Q&A boards !

How many do you know who DO NOT practice Christian love as Jesus taught with both word and example?

Too many !!! It even seems that the concentration of such "christians" increases on Q&A boards !

Are there any who post here doing those things?

Too many !!! It even seems that the concentration of such "christians" increases on Q&A boards !

Peace and kindness to you, Fred

John

:)

[Credendovidis]

Excellent question. However, I suspect that any answer given will be filtered through dogma and subjected to mental gymnastics by most.
Perhaps a better question is, what is love? If all viewpoints were filtered through the answer to that, there would be no argument. In time, there would be no need to ask the question.

I fail to agree with that.
Too many here do not show any love nor any tolerance towards other views.
Even if one would filter posts here with "love" as focal point, there still would be a lot of intolerance, a lot of hatred, a lot of totally misplaced "christian-based" threatening.

There will always be the need to ask these questions to bring the real Christian message home...

:(

[simoneaugie]

Why don't these Christians who annoy so many, of us practice love as Jesus taught through word and example? Why are they blind to their own hatred?

Sometimes they query about what love really is. That is a step in the "right" direction.

[wildandblue]

Matthew 7:1-2, 7:12-14. 5:21-26, 5:43-48 we need to love our brothers in spite of who they and we are. We don't get to pick whom we like, it's not "do unto others only if they seem to deserve it" When we let it go we let God judge them instead of us.

[Credendovidis]

Matthew 7:1-2, 7:12-14. 5:21-26, 5:43-48 ....

You can quote as many bible books/lines as you want.
But (Christian) integitry is about human beings and their human weaknesses.

:rolleyes:

[inthebox]

I fail to agree with that.
Too many here do not show any love nor any tolerance towards other views.
Even if one would filter posts here with "love" as focal point, there still would be a lot of intolerance, a lot of hatred, a lot of totally misplaced "christian-based" threatening.

There will always be the need to ask these questions to bring the real Christian message home .....

:(

What is love?
1 Corinthians 13 = classic.:)


If I disagree with your point of view, does that make me intolerant?

Do you equate tolerance with love?

Is intolerance the same as hatred?


If my child decides to use cocaine, I disagree with this, I am "intolerant" of this.
Do I hate my child because I am intolerant of their drug use? :eek:

Do I hate you because you do not believe in God? Quite the contrary, I love you because I BELIEVE Jesus died for you/ for all.

But what you believe is your choice. I can't force you or threaten you.

[Alty]

inthebox, the fact is that many Christians do force and threaten, that's how I grew up. I was considered less then human in some eyes because I am not Catholic. I resent that, detest that, and will no tolerate it from anyone.

I believe in God, but I'm not a Christian, I'm not anything, I cannot be caterogized, and that is the way I've chosen. So, why, after I tell Christians of my belief, do they feel the need to convert me to their way of thinking? I know it's your mission to recruit, but I already believe in God, why do I have to be a Christian in order to do that? I don't, and that makes a lot of Christians uneasy.

Many Christians tell me that my faith isn't good enough, that I don't truly believe. Let me assure you, I do. God is a part of my life, no less then he is a part of a Christians life. The only difference is that I do not follow the bible, nor do I attend church. You know, you can pray just as well at home, and God doesn't need a man made church, oak pews, stained glass windows, golden idols in order to hear me.

I just wish that people would stop trying to push their religion on others. If someone asks, then by all means, feel free, but if they don't, then constantly quoting the bible, saying that Christianity is the only way, well, that's harassment.

That has been my experience with many (not all) of the Christians I've encountered. There are of course exceptions, and those are the people that I can discuss religion with, no matter what differing views we have.

Acceptance is the key. I've spent my whole life looking for the acceptance of my beliefs. I'll let you know when and if I find it.

Peace. :)

[Wondergirl]

You can quote as many bible books/lines as you want.
But (Christian) integitry is about human beings and their human weaknesses.

And their strengths. And how they overcome their weaknesses.

[arcura]

Galviston1,
No the Catholic Church does not teach that a person goes to hell by not partaking of the Eucharist.
But in the bible Jesus said about those who eat his body and drink His blood that He will raise them up on the last day.
No, the Catholic Church does not teach that a person will go yo hell if not baptized in the Catholic Church.
But the bible does say that a person must be properly baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Most denominations recognize valid baptisms in other denominations.For the record I have never said that a person is going to hell.
The reason is that I believe that ONLY God knows who is going where.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Alty]

Arcura, you definitely fall into the category of one of the Christians I respect. You have never talked down to me, nor have you said that my belief is less because I'm not Christian. I thank you for that. :)

Having said that, I realize that it's hard to accept that other Christians are not as good as you. It's hard for someone to believe that some people can use their beliefs to be cruel to others.

I was baptized in the Lutheran church. My father was Catholic, my mother Lutheran. When they decided to get married, my father wanted to marry in the Catholic church. My parents went to the Catholic priest and requested that he marry them. The priest said that he couldn't unless my mother became Catholic. My mother refused, didn't see why she had to change her religion. The priest said no way, either change or get married elsewhere. My mom and dad decided to get married in the Lutheran church. The Catholic priest told them that unless they got married in the Catholic church, they weren't really married and all their children would be bastards.

I was confirmed in the Lutheran church, married in the Lutheran church, my son was baptized in the Lutheran church, both my parents funerals where in the Lutheran church. I do not consider myself Lutheran though, and I haven't for a long time.

I can't say it enough, I believe we are all Gods children, regardless of what we believe. If we are his children, then he will not turn his back on any of us, not matter what.

So, one day, we will all meet in heaven (if heaven exists), that is my belief. :)

Peace.

[Smoked]

inthebox, the fact is that many Christians do force and threaten, that's how I grew up. I was considered less then human in some eyes because I am not Catholic. I resent that, detest that, and will no tolerate it from anyone.

Unfortunately the cult of Catholicism is commonly confused with Christianity.

I believe in God, but I'm not a Christian, I'm not anything, I cannot be caterogized, and that is the way I've chosen. So, why, after I tell Christians of my belief, do they feel the need to convert me to their way of thinking? I know it's your mission to recruit, but I already believe in God, why do I have to be a Christian in order to do that? I don't, and that makes a lot of Christians uneasy.

Its not a matter of "recruiting". It's a matter of do you believe christ died on the cross for your sins. Christians are typically only concerned for salvation (true salvation).

Many Christians tell me that my faith isn't good enough, that I don't truly believe. Let me assure you, I do. God is a part of my life, no less then he is a part of a Christians life. The only difference is that I do not follow the bible, nor do I attend church. You know, you can pray just as well at home, and God doesn't need a man made church, oak pews, stained glass windows, golden idols in order to hear me.

"Belief" and salvation are two very different ant things. I think what the "Christians" you have spoken with have failed to do is explain that clearly. Also you are correct, legalism (ie: You must be baptized, You must go into our church and sing our songs ect..) is not true Christianity. Again, one way to salvation. Saved by grace and faith. The belief Christ died for our sins.

I just wish that people would stop trying to push their religion on others. If someone asks, then by all means, feel free, but if they don't, then constantly quoting the bible, saying that Christianity is the only way, well, that's harassment.

I hope you understand that pushing religion and concern for someone's salvation are two very different things. Typically Christians "true Christians" are very adamant when it comes the means of salvation. It is very clear in the bible that the only way to have salvation is to believe Christ died for your sins. As for harassment, I would gladly have you mad at me if that meant you could possibly be saved by my actions.

That has been my experience with many (not all) of the Christians I've encountered. There are of course exceptions, and those are the people that I can discuss religion with, no matter what differing views we have.

If a christian can't discuss someones religious views then they are to proud (a sin in itself). You should always be able to agree to disagree.

Just some thoughts..

[Tj3]

Galviston1,
No the Catholic Church does not teach that a person goes to hell by not partaking of the Eucharist.
But in the bible Jesus said about those who eat his body and drink His blood that He will raise them up on the last day.

Actually, it doesn't - this claim represents another gospel, another way to salvation. All you need to do, according to this, is to partake of a ritual once and you are saved.

For the record I have never said that a person is going to hell.

You have said that about me, Fred!

[Credendovidis]

Your questions (post #10) with my answers attached in BLUE.

If I disagree with your point of view, does that make me intolerant? No.

Do you equate tolerance with love? No.

Is intolerance the same as hatred? No.

Do I hate you because you do not believe in God? Quite the contrary, I love you because I BELIEVE Jesus died for you/ for all.
The point is that you KNOW that I am not interested in your religion as worldview.
I accept your worldview (I do not try to convert you to Secular Humanism) : I am tolerant.
You do NOT accept my worldview (you keep trying to convert me to Christianity) : you are intolerant

:rolleyes:

[Credendovidis]

just some thoughts..

Unfortunately the cult of Catholicism is commonly confused with Christianity.
Catholicism a cult? It all depends on your parameters !
If parameters are properly "adapted", even Christianity becomes a cult !

Its not a matter of "recruiting". It's a matter of do you believe christ died on the cross for your sins. Christians are typically only concerned for salvation (true salvation).
Altenweg is NOT a Christian but a DEIST !!! "Salvation" is not her concern nor her goal.

Typically Christians "true Christians" are very adamant when it comes the means of salvation.
That may be so, but once someone has clearly and beyond any doubt stated not to be interested in "Christian salvation", the constant pushing for conversion should stop.
You do not see Altenweg pushing anyone for conversion to Deism.
You do not see any Secular Humanist here pushing anyone for conversion to Secular Humanism.

Just some thoughts too !

:rolleyes:

[Credendovidis]

And their strengths. And how they overcome their weaknesses.

Agreed !

:)

[Wondergirl]

once someone has clearly and beyond any doubt stated not to be interested in "Christian salvation", the constant pushing for conversion should stop.

I went back over a number of Christianity threads and fail to see where anyone is being coerced to become a Christian. Or is that happening via PMs? Or are you talking about real life?