[Wondergirl]

Mary is Ever Virgin.

Even if what you say is true (and I don't believe it is), omission from the NT doesn't mean there weren't any.

Mary was a sinful human being just like the rest of us.

[Tj3]

With proper Hermeneutics we see in the Old Testament the word “brother” to express a broad kinship or clanship as well as the word indicating siblings.

Most scholars agree that adelphos means physical brothers, whereas if a broader relationship is indicated, the word which would be used is anepsios. The term is used here:

Col 4:10-11
10 Aristarchus my fellow prisoner greets you, with Mark the cousin of Barnabas (about whom you received instructions: if he comes to you, welcome him),
NKJV

Further, we have prophetic testimony from the OT. In a Messianic reference in Psalms we find:

Ps 69:8
8 I have become a stranger to my brothers,
And an alien to my mother's children;
NKJV

It is hard to argue that His mother's children are nor his brothers and sisters.

[arcura]

Tj3,
Mary was/is the mother of Jesus Christ, God the Son.
Whether you accept it or don't will not change that fact.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[Tj3]

Tj3,
Mary was/is the mother of Jesus Christ, God the Son.
Whether you accept it or don't will not change that fact.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Fred,

I agree that what I accept changes nothing, just like what you accept changes nothing. The same is true of all men, including each person on here, your priest, my Pastor, and your pope.

The truth comes from God's word, which is why I presented what God's word said. You presented your opinion (which, as we just discussed, changes nothing)

BTW, no one was arguing that Mary was not the mother of Jesus. You went further and argued that she was mother of God. That means something entirely different than simply being the vessel through whom the Son of God entered the world in the flesh.

Tom

[arcura]

Tj3,
I believe what the bible says about Mary and I have long ago provided the verses that tell us clearly that Mary id the mother of Jesus Christ, God the Son.
You have repeatedly indicated you don't believe that.
It is your right to believe as you wish.
In this case I agree to disagree with you.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Wondergirl]

Jesus Christ, God the Son

Mary had a baby whom she named Jesus.

When did Jesus become "the Christ"?

[arcura]

Wondergirl,
Jesus became the Christ when he was conceived in Mary's womb as foretold in the Old Testament.
He has been The Christ ever since.
The Christ is the promised one, the Messiah.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[ScottRC]

When did Jesus become "the Christ"?

Jesus is eternal... there was never a time in history where he "was not".

[Tj3]

Tj3,
I believe what the bible says about Mary and I have long ago provided the verses that tell us clearly that Mary id the mother of Jesus Christ, God the Son.
You have repeatedly indicated you don't believe that.

Hey Fred - is lying endorsed by your denomination? Because I never said any such thing and you know it. So you are deliberately and blatantly lying. What does scripture say about liars?

Rev 21:7-8
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
NKJV

Be careful.

[Tj3]

Jesus is eternal.... there was never a time in history where he "was not".

True. That is also true of the Father and the Holy Spirit. Which why Mary, while being the vessel through whom Jesus entered the world in the flesh, cannot be the mother of God. No woman ever conceived God in her womb, no woman pre-existed God, and no woman gave birth to the trinity.

Mary is indeed the mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God, but it defies both scripture and the laws of logic to claim that this makes her the mother of God.

[De Maria]

Why does the Catholic church say the Mary was always a virgin, in Luke 2, it talks about Mary's "Firstborn Son".
4So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David.
5He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child.
6While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born,
7and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.

In Mathew 13 it names Jesus brothers and "All his sisters" meaning at least three.

53When Jesus had finished these parables, he moved on from there.
54Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. "Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?" they asked.
55"Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?
56Aren't all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?"
57And they took offense at him.
But Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honor."
58And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

No doubt, they have an explanation to gloss over the truth again, like, "they were cousins and they used to call their cousins brothers and sisters in those days."

From this article:
Ttp://www.theworkofgod.org/LIBRARY/Apologtc/R_Haddad/4dgmMary.htm

Who, then, exactly were the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ?

It is best to start by looking at St. John 19, 25. There it is evident that the Virgin Mary had an older sister whose name was also Mary: "Meanwhile, standing near the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene."

Turning next to the Gospel of St. Mark 15, 40, speaking on the same point: "There were also women looking on from a distance; among them were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger (Less) and of Joses (Joseph), and Salome." Who is this "Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses?" Of the Marys mentioned in St. John 19, 25 it must be Mary the wife of Clopas, not Mary the "mother of Jesus," as the Virgin Mary is never mentioned by any other title except as "mother of Jesus." Further, we know that the father of James the younger was Clopas, the husband of Mary of Clopas (St. Mark 3, 18), making Mary of Clopas James' mother. As for Jude, he was also a son of Clopas and the Virgin Mary's sister as Scripture speaks of him as a brother of James the younger: "James son of Alphaeus (Clopas), and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the brother of James" (Acts 1, 13 [Douai]). Consequently, Our Lord had cousins by the names of James, Joseph and Jude.13

One can safely state then that the "brothers" of Our Lord as mentioned in St. Matt. 13, 54 -57 being James, Joseph, Jude etc. are in fact the same James, Joseph and Jude just determined to be His cousins. This was St. Jerome's assertion in the early fourth century:

"Suppose that the Brethren of the Lord were Joseph's sons by another wife. But we understand the Brethren of the Lord to be not the sons of Joseph, but cousins of the Saviour, the sons of Mary, his mother's sister."14

St. Augustine was no less strident in his defence of the Virgin Mary's perpetual virginity:

"It is written (Ezekiel 44, 2): 'This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it. Because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it...' What means this closed gate in the house of the Lord, except that Mary is to be ever inviolate? What does it mean that 'no man shall pass through it,' save that Joseph shall not know her? And what is this -'The Lord alone enters in and goeth out by it,' except that the Holy Ghost shall impregnate her, and that the Lord of Angels shall be born of her? And what means this - 'It shall be shut for evermore,' but that Mary is a Virgin before His birth, a Virgin in His birth, and a Virgin after His birth."15

It would be forcing credibility to believe that the Virgin Mary and Her older "sister" both had the same names and also had children with the same names. One can expect, also, that after St. Joseph died the Virgin Mary would have gone with Our Lord to live with or nearby Her older "sister," explaining why She was travelling with those mentioned in St. Matt. 12, 46. It is a clear example of the word "brother" being used to refer to a first or second cousin.
From this article:

It is also important to examine closely three major events in Our Lord's life referred to in the Gospels: (i) the return of the Holy Family from Egypt to Nazareth after the death of Herod; (ii) the finding of the Child Jesus in the Temple of Jerusalem after being lost for three days; (iii) Our Lord giving His Mother to the care of St. John at His crucifixion. Our Lord, according to tradition, was 10, 12 and 33 years of age respectively when these events occurred. Yet, never is there any mention of brothers or sisters of His being present, which one would naturally expect if they had actually existed.16

So, if all the brothers of Jesus can be traced to Mary of Clophas, then they must be Jesus' cousins and not brothers of the womb.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[ScottRC]

Mary is indeed the mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God, but it defies both scripture and the laws of logic to claim that this makes her the mother of God.

I understand why you believe this.

[pimp_mah_alpaka]

Because an angel came and told Mary that she would give birth to a little boy whom she had to call Jesus. She didn't have intercourse with her husband, Joseph, and therefore was still a virgin. You lose your virginity when you have intercourse

[ScottRC]

She didnt have intercourse with her husband, Joseph, and therefore was still a virgin. You lose your virginity when you have intercourse

We're discussing what happened AFTER the birth of Jesus (Thread title: Why was Mary called the "EVER virgin").

[De Maria]

True. That is also true of the Father and the Holy Spirit. Which why Mary, while being the vessel through whom Jesus entered the world in the flesh, cannot be the mother of God. No woman ever conceived God in her womb, no woman pre-existed God, and no woman gave birth to the trinity.

Mary is indeed the mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God, but it defies both scripture and the laws of logic to claim that this makes her the mother of God.

So, it defies logic to claim that Mary is not the Mother of God.

Here is the logical syllogism.

1. Jesus is God.
2. Mary is the mother of Jesus.
3. Therefore, Mary is the Mother of God.

Now, if we put your belief into a logical syllogism it would look like this:

1. Mary is not the mother of God.
2. Mary is Jesus' mother.
3. Therefore, Jesus is not God.

And that is precisely why the Church declared Mary the Mother of God centuries ago. Because many were claiming that Jesus is not God:
Mary: Mother of God

Sincerely,

De Maria

[arcura]

De Maria,
Yes, you are right.
Excellent post.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[Tj3]

So, it defies logic to claim that Mary is not the Mother of God.

Here is the logical syllogism.

1. Jesus is God.
2. Mary is the mother of Jesus.
3. Therefore, Mary is the Mother of God.

Now, if we put your belief into a logical syllogism it would look like this:

1. Mary is not the mother of God.
2. Mary is Jesus' mother.
3. Therefore, Jesus is not God.

And that is precisely why the Church declared Mary the Mother of God centuries ago. Because many were claiming that Jesus is not God:
Mary: Mother of God

Sincerely,

De Maria

In logic one must always be careful to validate their premises.

For example, your first syllogism has faulty logic. First, God is a trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Not just Jesus. By making Jesus alone God, we have a defined heresy. Jesus is God, but Jesus is one person of the trinity.

Second, Jesus is fully God and fully man. Mary was not the mother of God's divinity which pre-existed her. Your syllogism eliminates the fully human part of Jesus, and thus comes up with the heresy of the early gnostics.

[De Maria]

In logic one must always be careful to validate their premises.

For example, your first syllogism has faulty logic. First, God is a trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Not just Jesus. By making Jesus alone God, we have a defined heresy. Jesus is God, but Jesus is one person of the trinity.

Show me where I said that Jesus alone is God.

Second, Jesus is fully God and fully man. Mary was not the mother of God's divinity which pre-existed her. Your syllogism eliminates the fully human part of Jesus, and thus comes up with the heresy of the early gnostics.

Nope. Your conclusion eliminates the divinity of Jesus.

My syllogism does not eliminate the fully human part of Jesus. It makes clear that the human being born of that woman is God.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[arcura]

De Maria,
Tj3 can not comprehend the fact that Jesus Christ is a person, one person in a TRINITY of three and prior to being born as a human being was The Word of God, as the bible tells us The Word became man.
Mary was His mother and therefore the mother of God the Son, Not God the Father, or God The Holy Spirit.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

De Maria,
Tj3 can not comprehend the fact that Jesus Christ is a person, one person in a TRINITY of three and prior to being born as a human being was The Word of God, as the bible tells us The Word became man.
Mary was His mother and therefore the mother of God the Son,. not God the Father, or God The Holy Spirit.

Fred,

Abuse and lies do not enhance your position. Can you not just rely on the truth?