[ZachZ]

ZachZ to answer the OP...

He (Jesus) is fully God and fully Man like you said and He came back to life after 3 days....who did that, He did, He is fully God and fully man.

Thank you for addressing the OP:

Are you saying Jesus resurrected himself? Then he did not truly "fully die" as "fully man and fully God", and therefore: no sacrifice.

Are you saying Jesus did 'fully die', and was resurrected by "something else"... then this shows that Jesus was not fully God, as SOMETHING outside of the fully dead Jesus had to be around to do the resurrecting.

Show me where I'm wrong!

[N0help4u]

I didn't meant that you aren't. I am not meaning they are not open, I always ask God to show me in my spirit (opne my eyes and my heart to your truth), even so, it is just good to ask God in your spirit on a continuous basis like a refresher or reminder. God says those who seek shall find and you are seeking so trust that he will continue to lead you in all truths,

[ZachZ]

God says those who seek shall find and you are seeking so trust that he will continue to lead you in all truths,

How can I tell when someone tells me something if it's the "gospel truth" or if it's a deceitful message from Satan sent to test me?

[mountain_man]

Thank you for addressing the OP:

Are you saying Jesus resurrected himself? Then he did not truly "fully die" as "fully man and fully God", and therefore: no sacrifice.

Are you saying Jesus did 'fully die', and was resurrected by "something else"... then this shows that Jesus was not fully God, as SOMETHING outside of the fully dead Jesus had to be around to do the resurrecting.

Show me where I'm wrong!

OK... this is what I believe and will be quoting and pulling from the Bible so bear with the trail of reasoning and how difficult this is to explain on the computer.

On the cross Jesus cried out "Lord (His Father) why do you forsake me" and died. God the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit cannot die so clearly Jesus at that moment died as fully man. From there where He went for the next three days is unclear and not part of the OP. His body was buried but His soul/spirit was elsewhere. ON the third day His spirit re-entered His now new body (fully God) Remember He appeared to the three on the road and they didn't recognize Him so had to have been given a new body but when they realized they immediately knew it was Him, so even though the fully man had died the fully God was still very much there and never changed.

So to specifically say WHO raised Him from the dead, the spirit part of Him that is enjoined with God and the Holy Spirit never died but was just absent from the body

[ZachZ]

OK...this is what I believe and will be quoting and pulling from the Bible so bear with the trail of reasoning and how difficult this is to explain on the computer.

On the cross Jesus cried out "Lord (His Father) why do you forsake me" and died. God the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit cannot die so clearly Jesus at that moment died as fully man. From there where He went for the next three days is unclear and not part of the OP. His body was buried but His soul/spirit was elsewhere. ON the third day His spirit re-entered His now new body (fully God) Remember He appeared to the three on the road and they didn't recognize Him so had to have been given a new body but when they realized they immediately knew it was Him, so even though the fully man had died the fully God was still very much there and never changed.

So to specifically say WHO raised Him from the dead, the spirit part of Him that is enjoined with God and the Holy Spirit never died but was just absent from the body

Thank you...

Bear with me here, before I can make a follow-up point I need you to clarify something.

Can you please tell me that when Christians say "Jesus died for our sins", what exactly is involved in the sacrifice this describes? By definition, a 'sacrifice' is something valuable that is given up in order to obtain something better. There are four parts to a sacrifice:

1) Someone offering the sacrifice
2) The thing being sacrificed, which must be of value to the one offering it in 1)
3) The thing the sacrifice is being directed toward
4) The "something better" obtained in return for the subject of 1)

Can you clearly identify each of these four parts for me as Christians see it in the "sacrifice of Jesus on the cross".

Thanks.

[N0help4u]

How can I tell when someone tells me something if it's the "gospel truth" or if it's a deceitful message from Satan sent to test me?

See if it lines up with the Torah or even the Bible.
If people have to use word games to twist the meaning then be cautious.

Like some of the main denominations and cults will add the word LIKE to a verse and say that makes it mean something different. Or they will add or take away the word IF from the verse and say it means something different. They will say the founders of their Church were guided or inspired and it proves Jesus was an angel or that we ourselves become angels or gods when we die. Those are all false. Anybody that tries to complicate scriptures by a bunch of Church doctrine is most likely deceptive. Church doctrine should back up the Toran and the New Testament not add to it or take away from it.
I would go into more details and examples but I don't want to get an argument started here over religion. If you have any specific questions post them here.

[ZachZ]

See if it lines up with the Torah or even the Bible.

A GREAT answer.

So if I can find teachings or concepts in, say, the Quran... or the Greek gospels... that don't line up with Torah, I am justified in rejecting those books as false, correct?

[N0help4u]

Yes if it doesn't line up with the Torah or the New Testament then it isn't of God.
Like say you hear Jesus is an angel and related to Lucifer (the fallen angel Satan) like the Mormons believe where can you find it in the Torah or the New Testament to prove it or back it up without twisting the meaning?

[mountain_man]

Thank you ...

Bear with me here, before I can make a follow-up point I need you to clarify something.

Can you please tell me that when Christians say "Jesus died for our sins", what exactly is involved in the sacrifice this describes? By definition, a 'sacrifice' is something valuable that is given up in order to obtain something better. There are four parts to a sacrifice:

1) Someone offering the sacrifice
2) The thing being sacrificed, which must be of value to the the one offering it in 1)
3) The thing the sacrifice is being directed toward
4) The "something better" obtained in return for the subject of 1)

Can you clearly identify each of these four parts for me as Christians see it in the "sacrifice of Jesus on the cross".

Thanks.

1). God the Father sent His son into this world to spread the Word and ultimately offer Himself up to be sacrificed
2) obviously His one and only Son (which means a ton if you have children of your own)
3). We are all full of sin and fall short of the glory of God and this is the final sacrifice to wipe those sins clean (if we believe we are sinners in need of a saviour)
4). If you believe in Jesus (and his sacrifice for you) you shall not perish but have everlasting life

Look forward to your response

[N0help4u]

A question I have always wondered is why if Jews do not believe Jesus was the sacrifice then why do they not sacrifice animals any more like in the Torah and why when Jesus died did the veil tear? What was the significance of the temple veil being torn in two when Jesus died?

If you know the answer and maybe want to start another topic for it I would appreciate it.
If you can't answer that it is okay.

Did you look at this link I gave you previously?

Tenakh/Hebrew Scriptures

[mountain_man]

A question I have always wondered is why if Jews do not believe Jesus was the sacrifice then why do they not sacrifice animals any more like in the Torah and why when Jesus died did the veil tear? What was the significance of the temple veil being torn in two when Jesus died?

If you know the answer and maybe want to start another topic for it I would appreciate it.
If you can't answer that it is okay.

Did you look at this link I gave you previously?

Tenakh/Hebrew Scriptures

The veil tore because that separated the holy from the Holy of Holies (where the only direct communication between you and God could have existed) in the temple
It is a significant illustration showing that Christ's death makes it possible for us to go directly to God with anything; making the relationship very personal instead of having a go between (pastor, priest, etc)

[N0help4u]

I know but why don't the Jews take that as significant to Jesus death?
Jesus died and the separation of the holy from the Holy of Holies (where the only direct communication between you and God could have existed) in the temple was torn meaning no more separation.

[mountain_man]

I know but why don't the Jews take that as significant to Jesus death?
Jesus died and the separation of the holy from the Holy of Holies (where the only direct communication between you and God could have existed) in the temple was torn meaning no more separation.

I don't know for sure but don't they still operate under OT law with the notion the Messiah has not come yet and that Jesus was only a prophet. That is how I understand it?

[N0help4u]

Exactly. That is why I have always wondered why they don't see the significance.

[ZachZ]

Several interesting but not on-topic questions for Jews here that should be brought to the Judaism board.

Shabbos soon, if I don't get a chance to respond before then, I wish everyone a good weekend.

[N0help4u]

Yes that is why I asked if you cared to do another post. I would post it to the Judaism board but I have run into too much antagonism with someone with a couple questions I asked before.
If ETWolverine was still here I would PM him.

[Criado]

I should say none of the choices because both the question and the choices have erroneous content as far as biblical facts are concerned. BUT choice A is bit nearer to biblical facts.

[Peter Wilson]

The trinity may have been a mystery for many, but as usual, God's foolishness is greater than men's wisdom.
1 Corinthians 1

Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom,
23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

As is most revelation from God, when you see it, you wonder why everybody didn't see it in the first place!
So here we go,

I believe that the Holy Spirit is God the Father's Spirit and Jesus Spirit, come together to make one Spirit.
As we are made in His image, and how the figure of marriage is constantly used for the union of Jesus and the Church, even though two separate entities, come together as one.
This is why in Genesis 2 it says -

23 The man said,
"This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called 'woman, '
for she was taken out of man."

24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.


If we are MADE in the image of God, the emphasis is on the Made.
Eve was always a part of Adam, she was taken from him and made a helper for him.
When they come together, they form another person, or spirit.
A man, before he is married, has his own way of doing things, as does a woman.
If they continue in doing things to satisfy their own desires and needs and not those of each other, then that marriage is not very stable and will probably fail.
If the husband and wife choose to enjoy each others company and forego their previous life styles, then they will grow closer and closer together, eventually even finishing off each others sentences sometimes.
Their spirits truly become one and a new spirit is born, (so to speak), and wherever one or the other is, the spirit of the other is there with them.
I believe that this is the image God is talking about, "Man" in Genesis 5, is man AND woman, not just Adam.
"MAN is made in God's image," if that is the case, if it were a mirror persay, then God is made in man's image. (I say this just to make a point, not that God is made in OUR image, for those that may take this out of context)
I believe that Jesus was taken from God, as Eve was taken from Adam, and made a separate person with a separate Spirit.
He then came together with God the Father and their Spirits form the Holy Spirit, even though that still retain their own Spirits.
So, wherever the Holy Spirit is, Jesus is there; and so is the Father.
That is why Jesus is called the Firstborn of all creation, and in Revelation 3

14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

I believe that the Holy Spirit, could come upon men in the Old Testament, but could not stay, as man's spirit was not yet able to contain it as the perfect sacrifice had not yet come. ( Jesus)
When the Son of God took on flesh, the Holy Spirit was now part man, in the Spirit of Jesus.
After Jesus death and resurrection, He perfected all those that would accept His sacrifice for sins as their own and now the Holy Spirit could dwell in men.
This is the short answer, but it just about covers it.

Does that make sense to you? It was what I believe, God revealed to me a few years ago, after I pestered Him for the explanation of the Trinity for at least 15 years.
I would stand to be corrected if you could show that I was wrong, but as it is, it's a great story to tell the Jehova's Witnesses, they are shocked as the trinity is their favorite weapon against the Christian Church.
It shakes their doctrine to it's very core, they believe that Jesus is Michael the Archangel, not the true Son of God.
It's their best hook for taking people out of the Catholic church as Catholics have no explanation and little knowledge of the scriptures.
Once you agree with them on one point, it's easy for them to get you to agree on another, then another, then another.
Jehova's Witnesses have a seven step program for getting people into their church, but that's another story.
Just like the devil, he uses something small, like smoking or swearing when we are children, then slowly adds more and more rebellion until some commit murder or turn to drugs or suicide.
No-one decides to become a murderer overnight, or rob a bank overnight, it's a small step at a time.
I will say one thing for satan, he knows his business! And he knows our weakness!

[ZachZ]

As is most revelation from God, when you see it, you wonder why everybody didn't see it in the first place!

Agreed! It still astounds me that so many people try to get around using every rationalization in the book, no matter how specious! The Tanak says: God is not a man, No likeness of God was seen, God changes not, God is ONE. Why do you disagree?

...If they continue in doing things to satisfy their own desires and needs and not those of each other, then that marriage is not very stable and will probably fail.

You are saying the separate 'persons' of God have separate wills and it is (theoretically) possible for them to disagree with each other?

wherever the Holy Spirit is, Jesus is there; and so is the Father.

OK which one of the three was killed on the cross? Which one did the resurrecting?

Does that make sense to you?

I understand you believe it, but people believe all sorts of crazy, anti-biblical things.

It was what I believe, God revealed to me a few years ago, after I pestered Him for the explanation of the Trinity for at least 15 years.

It is clear to me that it wasn't God you were listening to when you chose to embrace these ideas.

Based on your answers, it appears that you are a polytheist. You believe in separate god-'persons' with individual wills. That makes 3 gods.

[cogs]

I understand your point: the apparent contradiction of jesus dying, then saying he resurrected himself, and us believing his word, which would make our thinking as illogical as jesus'. Again, I don't know how it happened, or how jesus did his miracles. I also don't know how god parted the sea for the israelites, or went as a cloud and a pillar of fire before them. I don't know how all the plagues against pharaoh happened. There's so many things in the bible that require faith, and the putting aside human logic. I mean, we could say anything, and attempt to believe it, whether it fits with physics or not.
So I look elsewhere for a reference point. I begin to look to the creation, and its purpose. To believe it just 'happened' to me, takes just as much faith as biblical miracles. There's too much organization and purpose to not believe we came from an intelligence. I then look to history for any evidence of that intelligence interacting with creation. The closest thing I have found that coincides with my questions about the meaning of life, and my purpose here, is the ancient scriptures of god.
Now for the jump in logic: if his words that were recorded point to a future event that will impact my spiritual development, or purpose, I would have to accept jesus as the closest event to the prophecy found in the ancient scriptures. Since I cannot prove god's interaction with humans over time, I have to take many things on faith, and look at the overall purpose. Finally, if I'm to spiritually mature, I have to have some verification that I'm on the right path, and the bible says that the spirit of god is available to me. So outside of scripture, I must accept a way to communicate to my creator, that the bible says is only available if I believe in jesus' atonement for my sin. In fact it says jesus is the way to god. So, although there's things in the bible that go beyond the physics I see everyday, I believe it still, because I need meaning to my life that I cannot find anywhere else. And back to the original thought, if I am created, what other miracles can this intelligence accomplish, that I cannot understand, and go beyond physics? Especially in the area of a loving sacrifice that serves god the only purpose of bringing us closer to himself, even for eternity where he resides?