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CarlyTD · Apr 23, 2008, 07:01 AM

Hi,

I need to run a dedicated 20AMP circuit for my over the range microwave but have a problem. There is no room in the box to add another breaker. On top of it, all of the single pole breaker are already doubled up.

Can anyone help me figure out how to squeeze one more run in here?

Thanks

Stratmando · Apr 23, 2008, 07:03 AM

Can you add a small Sub Panel next to the Main Panel?

donf · Apr 23, 2008, 09:54 AM

What do you mean by saying, "All of the single poles are already doubled up."

How much amperage is being run to your house? 100 or 200 amps?

CarlyTD · Apr 23, 2008, 03:17 PM

Thanks for the response. It is a condo so I am guessing its 100 but I will confirm. I have attached a picture of the panel. That may explain things better than I could..

Stratmando · Apr 23, 2008, 03:24 PM

Looks like you may have Gas Appliances, and Very little load, Done in conduit makes this a whole lot easier. They also make double 20/20, 30/30, and other amperage breakers that allow 2 240 circuits fit in aspace of a 2 pole breaker, Any circuit in panel no longer being used?

donf · Apr 24, 2008, 07:37 AM

Strat,

Take another look at the panel box, where are the Main Breakers to shut the box off so you can do some work on it?

Would they be the two heavy black conductors going to Breakers #1&3?

ballengerb1 · Apr 24, 2008, 10:43 AM

My eyes could be playing tricks on me but I don't think this is conduit, possibly flexible metallic cable. The lighting isn't great but I think I see rings on that cable at the top of the pic.

donf · Apr 24, 2008, 11:59 AM

Okay,

I pulled the image into PhotoShop and than changed the density to 600 DPI.

Yes there are rings on top of the panel box.

But I still don't see any way for the condo owner to drop power to the panel box in case there is service work needed. Is it me missing something? Where would the service disconnect be for the branch circuits fanning out from this panel box?

stanfortyman · Apr 24, 2008, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by donf

Where would the service disconnect be for the branch circuits fanning out from this panel box?

Typically at the meters. Usually gang meter/mains are used so as to keep the service disconnects grouped.

Stratmando · Apr 24, 2008, 03:50 PM

Donf, I would guess 1 &3 is Range or AHU. I do see all the grounds under 1 Lug?
You shouldn't need to Turn off Main. Thanks for the advice and help with enlarging Plans.
I have to go back and leave some positives on that post. Thanks again

CarlyTD · Apr 24, 2008, 06:05 PM

Sorry about the poor quality picture. The panel is circa 1979 so it is the flexible metal cable running from the top of the box to the fixtures. 1&3 is a 50A to the range, 5&7 are a 30A to the Hot Water Tank, 9&11 are a 30A to the Clothes Dryer, and 13&15 are a 30A to a built in A/C unit. 2&4 and 6&8 are 20A to baseboard heaters, 10 is a 20A to the clothes washer and a 20A to the garbage disposal, 12 is two (2) 20A runs of outlets, 14 is a 20A to the dishwasher and a 15A to lights, and 16 is two (2) 15A to lighting.

I hope that makes sense. I am replacing the old range hood (that ran off one of thew 15A circuits) with the microwave. I am just lost as to where (or even if) I can squeeze in the 20A.

I was going to get rid of the A/C but it is a rental unit and I am sure I would hear about it on the 5 days out of the year that it is hot enough in Seattle to need an A/C.

ballengerb1 · Apr 24, 2008, 06:07 PM

If the old hood was on a 15 amp breaker with 14-2 wire you aren't going to squeeze anything. Check the wire gauge, your micro needs 12-2.

CarlyTD · Apr 24, 2008, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by Stratmando

Looks like you may have Gas Appliances, and Very little load, Done in conduit makes this a whole lot easier. They also make double 20/20, 30/30, and other amperage breakers that allow 2 240 circuits fit in aspace of a 2 pole breaker, Any circuit in panel no longer being used?

OK.. so I reread your post and it sounds like I can take out the 2 30A for the A/C and replace it with a single sized breaker that is really 2 30A, and then put my single pole 20 for the microwave in that spot.

Am I reading you right? If so, much thanks.

ballengerb1 · Apr 24, 2008, 06:15 PM

Carly, I am talking about the wire from the panel to the micro that you want to reuse. You said it was an old 15 amp line so its likely on a 14 gauge wire. You can make the breaker change but you just won't have the correct wire from the breaker to the micro.

CarlyTD · Apr 24, 2008, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by ballengerb1

If the old hood was on a 15 amp breaker with 14-2 wire you aren't going to squeeze anything. Check the wire gauge, your micro needs 12-2.

I was thinking about where I could add the 20A breaker on the panel. I was planning on running a 12-2 (yellow I think) from the new breaker to the new outlet near the microwave. I was going to use the old 15A that was hard wired to the hood for under cabinet lighting.

Am I thinking correctly or am I off base.

Thanks for the input

CarlyTD · Apr 24, 2008, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by ballengerb1

Carly, I am talking about the wire from the panel to the micro that you want to reuse. You said it was an old 15 amp line so its likely on a 14 gauge wire. You can make the breaker change but you just won't have the correct wire from the breaker to the micro.

Hi Ballenger,

Gotcha. I was so focused on the panel that I didn't explain the big picture well. I am planning on running a new wire to a new outlet, and leaving the existing 15A alone or using it for cabinet lights.

ballengerb1 · Apr 24, 2008, 06:22 PM

Now its starting to sound better. The old line is fine for under the cabinet lighting so keep that, I like the pucks myslf. If you can fis a new 12-2 from the breaker to the new receptical then you are going to be OK. Don't rush out a do anything just yet. Lets let Don and the boys take quick read tomorrow, I think its bedtime at their place.

Stratmando · Apr 25, 2008, 06:34 AM

Carly, yes, if you use a double 240, you will have 2 spaces, One can be for the Micro. You will have 1 spare.

donf · Apr 25, 2008, 11:26 AM

Carly,

You need to back up a lot. If I read your post correctly you state that you are renting. If that is true, then you will need the landlord to get the electrical permit or hire an electrician to come in and do the work.

Please do not remove and appliance or touch the panel box without the landlord knowing what's going on.

You, as a renter, are not allowed to pull a permit for electrical. It has to be an owner or a licensed electrician, pulling the permit.

tkrussell · Apr 26, 2008, 04:11 AM

The issue is not just "renting".

Homeowners are allowed to do their own electrical work, with proper permitting, in single family homes only. Anyone should check with their local and state codes for what will be allowed.

A condo, while being owned or rented, most likely is a multi-family dwelling. Here is where even thou someone may own their condo, if the structure is a multi-family dwelling, only licensed persons are allowed to do electrical work in such a building.