[simoneaugie]

Of course God hears all of our thoughts. We are endlessly forgivable no matter what they are. God is our thoughts.

The church she goes to teaches guilt and fear. You can't make her see that the human-created church doctrine is her problem. God is love. There are no conditions or time limit. We all go to heaven, even if our church teaches that we must feel guilty and fearful of God. Sin is mankind not seeing itself as it really is.

Fear is simply the other side of love. God is both, everything and we are part of God.

[lobrobster]

And who said this is what God does?

Many Christians that I know claim that no matter how bad or how much you've sinned, all you have to do is accept Jesus, ask for forgiveness, and you will be cleansed of your sins and can enter heaven. Meanwhile, you cannot get into heaven no matter how good of a life you lived, if you don't accept Jesus as your Savior.

If this is incorrect, please let me know. Maybe I seriously misunderstand the doctrine.

[N0help4u]

Its sort of like this
Say you love someone and they love you
You are not required to cook, clean and do for them but out of the love you have for each other you do those things for each other.
Same with God we do not do good works to get to heaven
We do what is good and right because of the love for Jesus in our heart.

I hope I explained it good enough.

Addition:
You love your wife. She loves you. You come home from work, she is not going to say you can only enter IF you do this, that and obey me to the T.

[lobrobster]

Same with God we do not do good works to get to heaven
we do what is good and right because of the love for Jesus in our heart.

So you are admitting that doing good good simply out of respect and love for humanity and creation is not enough? That it's not about the rest of humanity, but only your love for God and Jesus?

I am NOT trying to be difficult... I just do not understand how a loving God allows a kind and gentle person to be eternally tortured just because they couldn't bring themselves to believe that which there is no evidence for. This is a big thing with me.

[Wondergirl]

So you are admitting that doing good good simply out of respect and love for humanity and creation is not enough? That it's not about the rest of humanity, but only your love for God and Jesus?

I am NOT trying to be difficult... I just do not understand how a loving God allows a kind and gentle person to be eternally tortured just because they couldn't bring themselves to believe that which there is no evidence for. This is a big thing with me.

As NOhelp said, Christians do good works out of reflected love from God. (God loves me, therefore, in thanks, I love others.) You and others do good out of love for others.

Who said a kind and gentle person will be eternally tortured just because he doesn't believe in God?

[lobrobster]

Who said a kind and gentle person will be eternally tortured just because he doesn't believe in God?

Uh, Protestants? Muslims? I thought most Christian denominations thought this as well. I was raised Catholic and was told belief in God and accepting Jesus was a pretty important requirement to get into heaven. Has that changed?

[N0help4u]

Scottyv agrees: Read the bible? Hmmn. Yeah why not start with Revelations? C'mon this girls in trouble at least suggest a passage that has lifted you in times of despair, maybe a Psalm or something?
Com'on I did! They are at the bottom of this page but I guess you skipped over them.

[Fr_Chuck]

Uh, Protestants? Muslims? I thought most Christian denominations thought this as well. I was raised Catholic and was told belief in God and accepting Jesus was a pretty important requirement to get into heaven. Has that changed?

Yes, those that do not accept Christ are not saved and do not go to heaven. Now is hell is torture or it is merely a place without God as the punishment or if it is just death, nothing more for those that don't believe, what exactly hell will be, is a real debate, but the fact that those who do not accept God goes there, is not a debate for a christian

[N0help4u]

I hear people asking about people that do not believe in God not going to heaven a lot.
What I can't figure out is if a person chooses to not believe in God then what is their problem about heaven. If they don't want God why do they want heaven? Just something I haven't figured out.

[lobrobster]

yes, those that do not accept Christ are not saved and do not go to heaven. Now is hell is torture or it is merely a place without God as the punishment or if it is just death, nothing more for those that don't beleive, what exactly hell will be, is a real debate, but the fact that those who do not accept God goes there, is not a debate for a christian

This is what I thought. Perhaps Wondergirl can expound on this. Again, this is a real problem for me and I suspect it's at the heart of my friend's problem as well. She's having doubts. Thought crimes if you will. Can she be saved?

[De Maria]

A friend of mine is afraid she can be convicted and sentenced to hell for her thoughts.

I've read your whole message and it sounds like something which many faithful people experience when they are moving closer to God. It is very common among the Saints.

She's a very devout Christian. Super nice person. She goes to church every Sunday and sometimes even in the middle of the week. She also prays to God every morning and night.

Amen!! Sounds as though she truly loves God. She is truly blessed.

The other day, she mentioned something about going to hell. I laughed, because she's the most loyal Christian I know. But she wasn't kidding. She told me she has impure thoughts. She's married, but thinks about relationships with other men. She sometimes wishes bad things on people. Sometimes she's jealous of her sister and wishes something bad would happen to her. Nothing real bad, but like lose her job or something. She would secretly enjoy that. Ditto for some of her coworkers.

Satan is always looking to trap a faithful Christian:

1 Peter 5 8 Be sober and watch: because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour.

As a faithful Christian, I'm sure she knows the value of prayer during times of temptation. But you might want to remind her to simply pray when those thoughts pop in her brain. That is really what they are for. They are reminders to pray:

1 Thessalonians 5 17 Pray without ceasing.

My friend also claims she has a form of mental Tourette's syndrome, where she'll just impulsively think something like, "I hate God". She doesn't know why this happens, she doesn't hate God, but she can't stop herself from thinking that and much worse, although she wouldn't tell me what worse things she thought.

It probably happens when she prays doesn't it? It is Satan tempting her. When Satan discovers a faithful person, he redoubles his efforts to corrupt that person. It is said that it takes only one of Satan's demons to corrupt a whole city. But Satan sends entire armies of demons against one faithful soul, but he gets nowhere because of their love of God.

Far from being a simple disease, it is a sign of predestination. She has been discovered. The enemy wants to take her back. But she is God's now. She has nothing to fear.

Mark 9 5 For he knew not what he said: for they were struck with fear.

Of course, anyone who knows me knows I don't believe in any of this. But she seems genuinely distraught over this and I told her I knew of an online forum where people seem to be knowledgeable about Christianity and sincere about helping people. So I promised I would ask this question for her...

Can you be convicted of thought crimes?

Yes. If you dwell on them, relish them and plan to consummate them.

Matthew 5 28 But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart.


But this wonderful woman obviously is horrified and repelled by these thoughts.

My own answer would be most certainly not, but what do I know? It would surpass all the things I already think are barbaric about the bible. It seems appalling to think that your innermost thoughts are under supreme surveillance 24/7. What a way to have to live!

So ignoring the truth is your solution?

So I'm guessing/hoping you'll say she's OK.

According to what I've read in your message, she seems to be one of God's elect. In my opinion, she is more than OK.

Again, she's one of the nicest sweetest people I know. She has to be for me to be posting a question on here for her. Even though I don't believe in any of this, I hate to see her so upset and worried about this. I'll print out some of your answers and show them to her. Thanks.

I hope this helps.

If she is Catholic as I suspect, she might want to read "the Story of a Soul" by St. Therese Lisieux:

http://www.marianland.com/saints101.html

St. Therese of Lisieux

and the "Divine Mercy in my soul" by St. Faustina Kowalska.

Divine Mercy in my soul
Divine Mercy in my soul. The Diary of Sister Faustina Kowalska

Excellent books on the subject of the journey of faith which we all experience.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[simoneaugie]

"So ignoring the truth is your solution?"
This a quote of what De Maria said in response to George_1950. I can't answer for George, but...

Actually, yes. I am, although ignoring it is not exactly what I'm doing. The "truth" is unproven and was admittedly written and skewed by men who were after money and power. The "truth" is the Bible in this instance. The OP was asking how to help his friend who is disturbed because she fully invests herself in the ideas presented by the "truth."

The miserable friend is the subject in question, and why she is miserable. Christianity, as taught by her church is her current problem. There has been advise which does not change her belief system (good,) like, pray whenever a bad thought raises its ugly head. Reading of the Bible is suggested. These may well get her over the problem. These are her truth.

These things, I may also do. But believing my own truth is what has brought me peace. Allowing others to believe as they choose is part of the law of this country (USA), is it not? Freedom of religion means any religion. I realize that it is part of Christian Doctrine to bring as many followers as possible to Christ. It is not part of Christian Doctrine to invalidate those who will/can not be turned to Christ, is it?

Invalidation, judgement and fear of "satan" and of "hell" and of her own thoughts have caused problems for the person in question. How does invalidating the views of others help this woman?

[De Maria]

"So ignoring the truth is your solution?"
This a quote of what De Maria said in response to George_1950. I can't answer for George, but...

I thought I addressed the OP.

Actually, yes. I am, although ignoring it is not exactly what I'm doing.

So, which is it? Are you ignoring the truth or not?

The "truth" is unproven

I disagree. The truth of Christianity is proven to my satisfaction.

and was admittedly written and skewed by men who were after money and power.

Really? Did the Apostles recant? I've not read those recantations. Please provide the references.

The "truth" is the Bible in this instance.

OK.

The OP was asking how to help his friend who is disturbed because she fully invests herself in the ideas presented by the "truth."

That is true.

The miserable friend

Miserable? I wouldn't characterize this wonderful lady as "miserable". In fact, I believe she is wonderful and wonderfully blessed with faith and love of God.

is the subject in question, and why she is miserable. Christianity, as taught by her church is her current problem.

No. Christianity is her great asset.

There has been advise which does not change her belief system (good,) like, pray whenever a bad thought raises its ugly head. Reading of the Bible is suggested. These may well get her over the problem. These are her truth.

OK.

These things, I may also do. But believing my own truth is what has brought me peace. Allowing others to believe as they choose is part of the law of this country (USA), is it not? Freedom of religion means any religion. I realize that it is part of Christian Doctrine to bring as many followers as possible to Christ. It is not part of Christian Doctrine to invalidate those who will/can not be turned to Christ, is it?

What are you talking about? Did my response invalidate your views?

Invalidation, judgement and fear of "satan" and of "hell" and of her own thoughts have caused problems for the person in question. How does invalidating the views of others help this woman?

Did I address anyone else's views? I thought I simply expounded my own opinion.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[classyT]

Actully Ex... we ARE our thoughts... as a man thinks so is he... fyi ( yep it is in the bible) ;)

[classyT]

A friend of mine is afraid she can be convicted and sentenced to hell for her thoughts.

She's a very devout Christian. Super nice person. She goes to church every Sunday and sometimes even in the middle of the week. She also prays to God every morning and night.

The other day, she mentioned something about going to hell. I laughed, because she's the most loyal Christian I know. But she wasn't kidding. She told me she has impure thoughts. She's married, but thinks about relationships with other men. She sometimes wishes bad things on people. Sometimes she's jealous of her sister and wishes something bad would happen to her. Nothing real bad, but like lose her job or something. She would secretly enjoy that. Ditto for some of her coworkers.

My friend also claims she has a form of mental Tourette's syndrome, where she'll just impulsively think something like, "I hate God". She doesn't know why this happens, she doesn't hate God, but she can't stop herself from thinking that and much worse, although she wouldn't tell me what worse things she thought.

Of course, anyone who knows me knows I don't believe in any of this. But she seems genuinely distraught over this and I told her I knew of an online forum where people seem to be knowledgeable about Christianity and sincere about helping people. So I promised I would ask this question for her...

Can you be convicted of thought crimes? My own answer would be most certainly not, but what do I know? It would surpass all the things I already think are barbaric about the bible. It seems appalling to think that your innermost thoughts are under supreme surveillance 24/7. What a way to have to live!

So I'm guessing/hoping you'll say she's ok. Again, she's one of the nicest sweetest people I know. She has to be for me to be posting a question on here for her. Even though I don't believe in any of this, I hate to see her so upset and worried about this. I'll print out some of your answers and show them to her. Thanks.

Well first of all, this is more about the "once saved always saved" message.. which I DO believe the bible teaches. Can we be convicted of our thoughts and ONLY our thoughts if we are NOT "in Christ" oh YEAH. But if you are "in Christ" you are made HIS righteousness and need to confess it to the Father... it is covered under the blood.

[simoneaugie]

DeMaria, Christianity, by it's very tenants, invalidates any view other than its own. There is no arguing with that. Frequently, Christians (not saying you are) are rude and "all-knowing, quoting what they believe is the truth. I did not attack Christianity. I did not attack your beliefs. I just told you what I saw.

Lack of feeling like a perfect child of God is the woman's trouble. I see the problem as based in Christian teachings. It may not be.

You asked, "So, which is it? Are you ignoring the truth or not?" I explained that. We disagree on the Bible being the truth.

The whole point is to answer the OPs question. Have we done that?

Asking questions like "so is ignoring the truth your solution" or, "So, which is it? Are you ignoring the truth or not?" These questions are assumptive. They are asked, possibly, because you are convinced that the Bible is the Truth. They come across as judgemental and mean.

Anyone who does not believe in the bible is an idiot, or ignorant? They deserve to be put down? They are unworthy of your love and acceptance?

I apologize that my post has digressed from the original question.

[Wondergirl]

Anyone who does not believe in the bible is an idiot, or ignorant? They deserve to be put down? They are unworthy of your love and acceptance?

Doesn't a Christian who says those things very obviously negate the message of the Gospel?

[classyT]

Doesn't a Christian who says those things very obviously negate the message of the Gospel?

It is a shame that so called christians talk like that. Just because some calls themselves a christian... doesn't make them one. And not all Christians are rude either. Just a few thoughts.

[tawnynkids]

No, your friend will not go to hell for her thoughts if she has accepted Christ. His death guaranteed our forgiveness and eternal life with Him, all we have to do is accept it. To believe otherwise is bondage. Salvation is freedom not bondage. Have your friend read a book called "Breaking The Enemy's Grip" by Eddie Smith.

Technically you don't even have to ask for forgiveness for every sin (though we are told we should) IT WAS GIVEN ON THE CROSS. Salvation is not conditional after acceptance. If you sin and then die before you have a chance to repent do you think you will go to hell? Of course not! That defeats the purpose of God's gift to us of the sacrifice of His Son to cover our sins. We will forever sin, every one of us, "the saved" or "the unsaved". God knew this. He made the way for us, He sacrificed His only Son so that we would never have to worry about repenting and asking for forgiveness for every sin (He knows that is impossible for us! He is a fair God, He provided our "out"). The only thing we have to do is accept it. God said Not say we accept it and not really believe it we have to accept and really believe. The statement "God knows our hearts" is used a lot to claim one's place in Heaven without accepting Christ, well that's not enough to say God knows we try to do good and are "a good person" so that's enough, it means He knows if we truly accept and believe or not. It's not enough to say you believe there is a God either, even satan believes in God and Jesus. You must accept that Christ is the Son of God, that He lived and died for our sins so that we may be forgiven.

Yes you must accept Christ to live eternity with Him. It is biblical. It is not an opinion. "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life," (John 5:24) and "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me," (John 14:6) That is the single only condition you must accept and believe. Nothing else. It doesn't say AND if you live a good life and obey me. But doing as God has commanded is a part of living the Christian life. After all the bible only tells us to put others first, to treat each others with love, to be moral... why is it that the Bible is so condemned for telling us how to live good lives? It doesn't say to be mean and hateful, to steal and kill each other, to molest and abuse, to put others or ourselves in harms way, to judge and be cruel, to be unforgiving and condemning... it simply tells us how to live unselfishly and with love.

There is only one unforgivable sin, it is biblical. Jesus mentions a sin that is unforgivable in Matt. 12:31-32 and calls it blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. By simply looking at the context it becomes apparent that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is saying that Jesus did His miracles by the power of the devil. This is unforgivable. And no, A believer cannot commit the unforgivable sin. How can someone who has been born again (John 3:7), made a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17), and received eternal life (John 10:27-28) actually commit the unforgivable sin? He cannot. Jesus Himself said that we have eternal life, not conditional life: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand." Besides, it says in 2 Cor. 5:17 that the Christian is a new creation in Christ. We are different, no longer slaves to the old nature (Rom. 6:14). We are regenerated by the Holy Spirit.Jesus mentions a sin that is unforgivable in Matt. 12:31-32 and calls it blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Once saved we sill still struggle with sin. EVERYDAY! We only need to turn to God and ask for help to overcome this sin. Not because that is what will save us but because that it what is right.

[De Maria]

DeMaria, Christianity, by it's very tenants, invalidates any view other than its own.

For one thing, the woman that is the subject of this discussion is a Christian. Therefore her views are the Church's views.

There is no arguing with that.

For another, there is plenty of arguing with that.

First of all, the woman in question is a Christian therefore the argument you are presenting has nothing to do with this discussion.

Secondly, neither I nor the Church invalidated this woman's views or concerns. In fact, I commend her for the way she has lived her life and my opinion rests completely on Church teaching.

Thirdly, you seem to be concerned that Christianity invalidates "other views". But are you equally upset when people with "other views" object and attempt to invalidate Christian views?

And finally, are you not attempting to invalidate my Christian view in this very discussion? After all, I originally addressed the OP, not you. So why did you object to what I said? And after objecting to what I said, did you expect that I would not respond?

Frequently, Christians (not saying you are)

Thanks.

are rude and "all-knowing, quoting what they believe is the truth.

Please explain. Are you saying that when a Christian quotes what he believes is truth he is rude? What about when a non-Christian quotes what he believes is truth? Is he also being rude then?

Or have I misunderstood your point?

I did not attack Christianity.

Did I say that you attacked Christianity?

I did not attack your beliefs.

Did I say that you attacked me?

I just told you what I saw.

True. Lets review. I posted a response to the OP. You addressed me and disagreed with my response. And I responded to what you said.

I don't feel as though you attacked me. But I believe I have the right to address your objections. Fair enough?

Lack of feeling like a perfect child of God is the woman's trouble. I see the problem as based in Christian teachings. It may not be.

Obviously, I don't believe the woman has a problem at all. I believe she is a predestined child of God.

You asked, "So, which is it? Are you ignoring the truth or not?" I explained that. We disagree on the Bible being the truth.

Correct.

The whole point is to answer the OPs question. Have we done that?

I thought I did. And the OP seemed to agree. He said:

lobrobster agrees: Excellent post! Thanks!

Asking questions like "so is ignoring the truth your solution" or, "So, which is it? Are you ignoring the truth or not?" These questions are assumptive. They are asked, possibly, because you are convinced that the Bible is the Truth. They come across as judgemental and mean.

Yes, I do believe that the Bible is the Word of God and therefore the Truth.

Apparently, the OP, to whom the first question was addressed did not see itas mean. And they weren't intended to be mean. They were intended for clarification. This is what you said:

Actually, yes. I am, although ignoring it is not exactly what I'm doing.

First you said you were ignoring the truth and then, "not exactly". I think the answer is important to the discussion, don't you? Therefore, I believe you should have answered the question, so I asked for clarification. That's all.

Anyone who does not believe in the bible is an idiot, or ignorant? They deserve to be put down? They are unworthy of your love and acceptance?

Did I say that or did you? If I said that, please quote me.

I apologize that my post has digressed from the original question.

I'm not the one to whom you should apologize. As for me, I think you and I are having a polite debate. I don't mind having polite debates with anyone.

Sincerely,

De Maria