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NeedKarma · Mar 25, 2008, 03:30 AM

Originally Posted by Donna Mae

I couldn't stand living in this evil world if I didn't have hope.

I guess that's where we differ - you see this as an evil world. I pity you.

talaniman · Mar 25, 2008, 03:52 AM

You may be, but I disagree with you on that. You can know better. You even should know better.
We learn more as we go through life.
But because your morals and ethics are based on the Christian basics
Actually I am not a Christian.
you seem to lack the need for argumentation and justification for your views.
I have no need for validation of my personal relationship with the God that I understand.
Nothing wrong with hope. But hope alone will hardly ever lead to anything better.
Except the consideration of the life path you take and the actions that come with your choices.
You have to put more into that than just hope.
We all hope our actions produce fruit, from our labor, don't you. Hope is what motivates us to take the right action.

talaniman · Mar 25, 2008, 04:17 AM

But those without God don't even have hope, not for the life after this.
Maybe they don't dwell on the after life, but that doesn't mean they do not strive for a good life now.
And of course as many say here morals and ethics are not just a Chrsitian issue but a issue of society,
And a matter of personal choice.
And there is no need to argue and most certainly no need to justify our beliefs.
But there is a need to respect what others believe.
Those wanting a justification merely wish to not accept, which is thiere right,
Some need more evidence than others, but that does not diminish their choices.

but when they wish to challenge those that beleive they wish to merely try and take away that hope and beleif form others.
The challenge is in the way we convey what we believe to others.
I have always challenged that those that do this, are more than pure athiest,
That's an opinion, and yours, but no facts to back it up, so essentually your doing the same as you say they are, challenging a belief that is not yours.
but are really those working for the other side,
The otherside of what?
If one attacks one beleif, they have to have a belief that is against it,
not merely a beleif of nothing.
There are those that don't believe as you do, disagreement and debate is hardly an attack. As you disagree with them, they disagree with you. Not only is that their right, but their choice, and they have as much right as you do, to disagree.
__________________

ordinaryguy · Mar 25, 2008, 05:57 AM

Originally Posted by Donna Mae

I couldn't stand living in this evil world if I didn't have hope.

If the world you live in is evil, your hope is a sham and a fraud.

ordinaryguy · Mar 25, 2008, 06:36 AM

Originally Posted by Credendovidis

It's not so much a case of doubt, but much more one of total lack of objective support for the existance of any format of afterlife.

Well, let's face it. There's a "total lack of objective support" for ANYTHING that's predicted to happen in the future. That by itself doesn't bunch my shorts. What bunches my shorts is the idea that THIS life in this PHYSICAL body is not inherently valuable or holy and is therefore inconsequential except as the stage set for the drama of our choosing or rejecting the next one.

It won't bother me a bit if there is a next life, in fact I hope there is. But living THIS life as though its only worthy purpose is to get to heaven is a sacrilege, as I see it. I will live this life as though it were the most precious, exquisitely beautiful, and fragile gift imaginable, and treat it with the utmost respect and attention in order to understand how to live harmoniously and rewardingly with others. If that kind of life is not proper preparation and qualification for the next one, then I'll gratefully accept this one gift as sufficient.

inthebox · Mar 25, 2008, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

If the world you live in is evil, your hope is a sham and a fraud.

The fact is, even all the self acknowledged non Christian / atheists / agnostics, on this thread keep on saying I'll do my best to be as "good" as I can in this lifetime.

This means that the above group acknowledges that there is right and wrong, good and evil.

Why?

As a believer, there is evil because that contrasts with the perfect holiness of God. A God that is the ultimate good. That is my hope.

If I did not believe in an ultimate "good" God, then there is only evil and ultimately despair.

And those who say that there is no evil in this world - don't kid yourselves.

NeedKarma · Mar 25, 2008, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by inthebox

If I did not believe in an ultimate "good" God, then there is only evil and ultimately despair.
And those who say that there is no evil in this world - don't kid yourselves.

That's what DonnaMae was saying of this world - that it is evil. Whereas I, and a few others, were saying that there is much good as well, in fact we see more good than evil. No one was discounting that evil exists in this world, and it is done by christians and non-christians.

Benjimeister · Mar 25, 2008, 10:39 AM

There would have to be a god for anyone, Christian or otherwise to be good in his eyes.

Donna Mae · Mar 25, 2008, 09:04 PM

l- I certainly didn't mean to give the impression that my life is less than fulfilling, far from it! I have everything I could ever want in my life. A loving Father and Savior. A wonderful (the best) family that anyone could ever hope for. I have the joy in knowing that my family are Christians and that no matter what happens in this life, we will be together for eternity.

And yes I still believe that this is a sinful (evil) world. So many murders, people who get enjoyment out others pain, so many missing children, children being abused daily.
Babies murdered and people saying, "It's my body!" I consider all of these things evil.

I do believe in God so how about I pray for you?

Donna Mae · Mar 27, 2008, 09:46 PM

I appreciate all honest questions about God and Jesus, but I don't want to get into anymore debates over whether they are real or a fairy tale.

I will say again, I know God is real and I know Jesus is our Savior and I know that the Bible is the true word of God.

And I don't believe that you are really interested in any answer I give, but I do hope that some day you will be.

Handyman2007 · Mar 27, 2008, 09:50 PM

Gos is not an entity that needs to have our deeds proven to. God is merely an idea within us. Any person on Earht can do something that will show someone's God that they are good.

Fr_Chuck · Mar 29, 2008, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by lobrobster

For those who don't care whether or not their beliefs are true, you're right. Why justify them?

Fortunately, there are people who DO care if what they believe is true or not. If YOU don't care, that's fine for you. But we don't all have to live like that.
What 'other' side? Do you really think that to have a lack of belief in something for which there is no evidence for is evil?

Actually the Christian faith is justified it is call the Bible, so now accept it, well figure you won't like that answer but that is it, now the ball is in your court since God will hold you liable for your choice.

And yes, you are either for God or against God, there is no medium ground, Man is evil just because he is man it is only though Christ that there is salvation.

NeedKarma · Mar 29, 2008, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Actually the Christian faith is justified it is call the Bible,

That`s known as circular reasoning.

talaniman · Mar 29, 2008, 01:30 PM

Does any one besides me find it curious that the top 3 religions come from the same region of the earth? (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) Sprouted from each other, and sees the rest of the world as pagans?

scottyv · Apr 27, 2008, 03:27 PM

The bible is actually very clear on this issue. In Genesis it says that:

God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.

What is not good is that man be alone. All the rest is religious speculation. God created and it was good. Ergo if God didn't create it, it isn't good.

Peace, Scotty

black111madonna · Apr 27, 2008, 03:46 PM

Can a non christian do good?

Well if you don't meet people... you'll never know!
And you surely need to find out yourself that's called experiencing life!

= Take whatever is coming to you... let the beauty of it move you..! =

scottyv · Apr 27, 2008, 11:45 PM

Well said!

scottyv · Apr 27, 2008, 11:51 PM

I like it, reminds me of a bible verse in 1John: Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

scottyv · Apr 28, 2008, 12:21 AM

That last quote was provocative.

lobrobster · Apr 29, 2008, 06:45 AM

Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Actually the Christian faith is justified it is call the Bible, so now accept it, well figure you won't like that answer but that is it, now the ball is in your court since God will hold you liable for your choice.

So...

Q- Do we know God exists?

A- Of course. The bible tells us so.

Q- How do we know to believe the bible?

A- Because it is the word of God.
----------------------------------------------------

If such logic works for you, then you're welcome to it.

I'll ask again... Why not just call it faith and leave it at that? If you think the above line of reasoning is in any sense logically 'justified' you are sorely mistaken. Had you used the same method for acquiring knowledge about all other things in life, you'd still be learning to tie your shoes.