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Donna Mae · Mar 12, 2008, 01:54 PM

[QUOTE=NeedKarma] You've stated that you have zero faith in atheism and science so why are you here arguing? [QUOTE]

SassyT is here, probably for the same reason as the rest of us Christians, because it is a Christian forum.

Credendovidis · Mar 12, 2008, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by Donna Mae

C-I am very interested to hear what all these contradictions and mistakes are too.

Sassy - Donna Mea : OK : JUST ONE EXAMPLE OF MANY :

The First Creation Story

In the first part of Genesis, the writer tells us that the animals were created before man:

25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 26 Then God said, "Let us make man (Genesis 1:25-26)

Note below that the author of this second story first tells us that God made man, then he tells us that God said, "It is not good for man to be alone. I will make animals for man." Obviously, man had already been created, was lonely, so God then made animals.

The Second Creation Story

7 The LORD God formed the man…The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him." 19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the…But for Adam no suitable helper was found (Genesis 2:7-22)

Note: some apologists try to argue that the words "God had formed…the beasts" means that the author is stating what had been done prior to making man. This argument fails, however, because the writer makes it perfectly clear that God tried to relieve man's loneliness by making beasts as helpers. Thus, the animals HAD to have been made after man had been created, otherwise God wouldn't have said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him," and then made the animals.

---

If you wish I can post here a couple of hundred Bible contradictions...
The point I like to make here is that the Bible story is NOT perfect, NOT clear, NOT without contradictions.
An omniscient superpotent deity (if it exists and has such qualifications) would not make or allow such mistakes to be made?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WHY would such a powerful deity that can "create" a complete universe with everything in it in only 6 days issue it's one and only instruction manual for mankind through a couple of well willing but limited talented human writers, who did what they did most probably with the best intentions?

For such a powerful omniscient omnipotent deity it would have meant not more than seconds to have written, translated, printed, distributed the Bible to each human being some 2000 years ago, and have stored for many millennia updated copies for future generations?

For such a powerful omniscient omnipotent deity it would have meant neither more than seconds to produce it's own son (who later turns out to be the deity itself again), instead of having to use a married "virgin".

Believe whatever you like to believe : no problem!
But do not attack normal logical thinking sane people based on whatever you BELIEVE.

GET REAL !

NeedKarma · Mar 12, 2008, 02:15 PM

I know it's a niggling little point but it's not a christian forum, it's a forum whose topic is christianity.

Credendovidis · Mar 12, 2008, 02:21 PM

[QUOTE=Donna Mae][QUOTE=NeedKarma] You've stated that you have zero faith in atheism and science so why are you here arguing?

SassyT is here, probably for the same reason as the rest of us Christians, because it is a Christian forum.

That is true. But it is not a forum by Christians for Christians ONLY

So there should be space just as well for those with another view.
Most non-Christians are not aggressive AGAINST the Christian religion at all.
I am NOT AGAINST anyone who believes in God and/or the Christian faith.

But just as many others I am critical at the empty hollow claims that are posted here as "the one and only truth". I think true Christianity deserves better than that babble.
.

sassyT · Mar 12, 2008, 03:12 PM

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Sassy - Donna Mea : OK : JUST ONE EXAMPLE OF MANY :

The First Creation Story

In the first part of Genesis, the writer tells us that the animals were created before man:

25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 26 Then God said, "Let us make man (Genesis 1:25-26)

Note below that the author of this second story first tells us that God made man, then he tells us that God said, "It is not good for man to be alone. I will make animals for man." Obviously, man had already been created, was lonely, so God then made animals.

The Second Creation Story

7 The LORD God formed the man…The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him." 19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the…But for Adam no suitable helper was found (Genesis 2:7-22)

Note: some apologists try to argue that the words "God had formed…the beasts" means that the author is stating what had been done prior to making man. This argument fails, however, because the writer makes it perfectly clear that God tried to relieve man's loneliness by making beasts as helpers. Thus, the animals HAD to have been made after man had been created, otherwise God wouldn't have said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him," and then made the animals.

---

Tut tut tut This just proves how people are so ignorant and quick to judge when they don't even have any information. Are you serious right now? Don't you know that the helper that God was talking about to relieve his loneliness was EVE. Maybe if you stop taking a couple of verses out of context and actually read the text you would know what you are talking about. Lets look at the ENTIRE text.

Genesis 2:7-23

18 And the LORD God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” 19 Out of the ground the LORD God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him.
21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman (ADAMS COMPARABLE HELPER), and He brought her to the man.
23 And Adam said:
“This is now bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”

So please before you continue to embarasse yourself, do some reading and research.

If you wish I can post here a couple of hundred Bible contradictions...
The point I like to make here is that the Bible story is NOT perfect, NOT clear, NOT without contradictions.
An omniscient superpotent deity (if it exists and has such qualifications) would not make or allow such mistakes to be made?

Well your first contradiction turned out to be a joke, I'm guessing the rest are just as ridiculous. So don't even Bother please. You are waisting your time.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WHY would such a powerful deity that can "create" a complete universe with everything in it in only 6 days issue it's one and only instruction manual for mankind through a couple of well willing but limited talented human writers, who did what they did most probably with the best intentions?

For such a powerful omniscient omnipotent deity it would have meant not more than seconds to have written, translated, printed, distributed the Bible to each human being some 2000 years ago, and have stored for many millennia updated copies for future generations?

For such a powerful omniscient omnipotent deity it would have meant neither more than seconds to produce it's own son (who later turns out to be the deity itself again), instead of having to use a married "virgin".

Believe whatever you like to believe : no problem!
But do not attack normal logical thinking sane people based on whatever you [

This is your Human reasoning. If you knew the Bible then you would know that God gave humans dominion over the earth therefor Spiritual beings Like God, demons angels etc can only operate through Human Beings. That is why when the People of Israel asked God to deliever them from Egypt, God sent a MAN by the Name of Moses to do it through his power. In the same way God iNspired Man to write his Word. Your reasoning is like a grain of sand compared to God's so don't even waist your time.

sassyT · Mar 12, 2008, 03:19 PM

[QUOTE=Credendovidis][QUOTE=Donna Mae]

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

You've stated that you have zero faith in atheism and science so why are you here arguing?
That is true. But it is not a forum by Christians for Christians ONLY

So there should be space just as well for those with another view.
Most non-Christians are not aggressive AGAINST the Christian religion at all.
I am NOT AGAINST anyone who believes in God and/or the Christian faith.
But just as many others I am critical at the empty hollow claims that are posted here as "the one and only truth". I think true Christianity deserves better than that babble.
.

You are on a Christian forum harassing Christians about their beliefs. You are just here to promote your own beliefs but I don't think any of the Christians here are interested. Sorry.

Fr_Chuck · Mar 12, 2008, 03:33 PM

Yes, this is place on the forum for Christian discussion, and those threads that wish to do nothing but attack Christian beleifs are normally deleted since they are not addressing the questions.

And those posters who end up showing thierself as trolls, only posting attacking christianity are normally dealth with as such.

So in basically if a non christian tries to highjack a tread or merely attack thosse coming to a christian thread to find out about chirstian beleifs, normally it is moderated as such.

Some threads will be moved to a religious discussion area where a more non christian discussoins can be made over a subject.

So just like we would not want anti Muslim postings on the Muslim board, if you do not wish to help others learn about what christian faith is, you really have no business hurting those that wish to know with often baited or hate filled postings.

In such I have let one new poster go too far on several occasions, moved a thread or two to religious discussion and deleted several of his posts. But this is why if they want to rant non christian things, go to the religion board but they have no business on the Christian board,
But

Donna Mae · Mar 12, 2008, 03:37 PM

[QUOTE=Credendovidis]Sassy - Donna Mea : OK : JUST ONE EXAMPLE OF MANY :

The First Creation Story

In the first part of Genesis, the writer tells us that the animals were created before man:

25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 26 Then God said, "Let us make man (Genesis 1:25-26)

Note below that the author of this second story first tells us that God made man, then he tells us that God said, "It is not good for man to be alone. I will make animals for man." Obviously, man had already been created, was lonely, so God then made animals.

--------------------------------------------------------

What?
Well all of us who read the Bible know this is not a contradiction, because that's not what the Bible says. I agree with SassyT, try actually reading the Bible before you quote these so called contradictions.

Donna Mae · Mar 12, 2008, 03:44 PM

Bring on the couple of hundred contradictions.
We're waiting.

Fr_Chuck · Mar 12, 2008, 03:52 PM

As for the two creation stories, first of course is it not great, had man planned to fool everyone and to make something up, all of it would match perfect, so it shows that. But one has to look at the major purpose that it tells us God created us, and all things.

But to me, what is amazing is that how often those that hate Christ and his word try and use the bible against, reminds me of where Satan tried to use the word of God to tempt Christ.

But man using his wisdom refuse to see the real message but agrue words.
So sad.

Fr_Chuck · Mar 12, 2008, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by Donna Mae

Bring on the couple of hundred contradictions.
We're waiting.

Actually make it a new thread in the religious discussion area if you wish.

Donna Mae · Mar 12, 2008, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Actually make it a new thread in the religious discussion area if you wish.

I'll have to think about it. I really don't enjoy fighting with the people who are only on here for a fight, but when they are wrong I have to defend our Lord.

But thanks anyway.

sassyT · Mar 13, 2008, 08:02 AM

Actually it is only my third language.

I figured as much, that explains it.

You are doing on this board a beter job than I could and ever would do myself.
So far you have in a couple of days as a Christian driven away several people from 'the word' with your intolerant , aggressive , and often ridiculous presentations. Is that YOUR approach towards your final judgement?

It sounds like you have just given a perfect description of yourself. After all Jigicou came to the Christians forum to ask about how she can know God and trolls like you come here to harrasse Christians about their beliefs and promote your own atheistic religion. If Jigicou wanted to hear about Atheism or Science he/she would have posted a question under the "other religions" or "science" sections of the site. So, like I said before we appreciate your attempt to try and convert us to your faith but I don't think any Christians here are interested. :)

BMI · Mar 14, 2008, 09:44 AM

WOW! I missed the beginning and end of this thread.

I wanted to post this link here for those interested to perhaps comments or try to dispel some of the points made. I present it because this thread is heavy on scientific disscussion and theory. What I have noticed in many threads pertaining to God and creation, is that most portray scientists as unbeleivers, at least the majority of scientists, I think that is a misrepresentation of the truth really.

Also, I have no education in terms of science and all that fun test tube stuff but I did enjoy reading this paper and perhaps those of you with a background in science may enjoy it or understand it better than I. I get what it is saying, I have no clue about the equations though, even so I think it hard to refute.

Is There Scientific Evidence for the Existence of God? How the Recent Discoveries Support a Designed Universe

sassyT · Mar 14, 2008, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by BMI

WOW! I missed the beginning and end of this thread.

I wanted to post this link here for those interested to perhaps comments or try to dispel some of the points made. I present it because this thread is heavy on scientific disscussion and theory. What I have noticed in many threads pertaining to God and creation, is that most portray scientists as unbeleivers, at least the majority of scientists, I think that is a misrepresentation of the truth really.

Also, I have no education in terms of science and all that fun test tube stuff but I did enjoy reading this paper and perhaps those of you with a background in science may enjoy it or understand it better than I. I get what it is saying, I have no clue about the equations though, even so I think it hard to refute.

Is There Scientific Evidence for the Existence of God? How the Recent Discoveries Support a Designed Universe

Good article! To say the Universe just happened by accident is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. Its like landing on Planet Jupitor and finding a machine that resembles a car and coming to the conclusion that the machine, with is its complexity and obvious design, just appeared by accident and evolved over time. A logical and rational human being would conclude that there must be "inteligent" life on the planet.

Fr_Chuck · Mar 14, 2008, 06:09 PM

Excellent link, yes there are many great Christian scientist.

Credendovidis · Mar 23, 2008, 06:21 AM

Originally Posted by Jigicou

How can I tell that God exists and how do I know when he is affecting my life

It seems that the original topic question has been forgotten in this thread.
.
Jigicou :
The simple answer is that you can not "tell" that God exists. You can BELIEVE that God exists.
If and how God affects your life depends on if you BELIEVE that God exists. So you will never KNOW if God effects your life. You can only BELIEVE that God effects your life, and through your BELIEF in God actually effect your own life by your (changed) actions.
.

Fr_Chuck · Mar 23, 2008, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by Credendovidis

It seems that the original topic question has been forgotten in this thread.
.
Jigicou :
The simple answer is that you can not "tell" that God exists. You can BELIEVE that God exists.
If and how God affects your life depends on if you BELIEVE that God exists. So you will never KNOW if God effects your life. You can only BELIEVE that God effects your life, and through your BELIEF in God actually effect your own life by your (changed) actions.
.

Love to use highlight I see, too bad you don't have a Christian background to understand how wrong. When you SEE and when you FEEL, you end up KNOWING. Only those that refuse to see, don't know.

Credendovidis · Mar 23, 2008, 06:51 AM

Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Love to use highlight I see

Indeed. I prefer to be clear and precise.
:)

Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

... too bad you don't have a Christian background to understand how wrong.

Wrong : I have a Christian background. But after I rejected the existence of deities I became a Secular Humanist.
:)

Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

When you SEE and when you FEEL, you end up KNOWING. Only those that refuse to see, don't know.

Nah... You BELIEVE that you KNOW. But without objective evidence for that it always remains BELIEF.
You call it any way you want, but it is and remains BELIEF.
:)

Onan · Mar 23, 2008, 07:07 AM

Wow this thread is long.

I do not wish to turn anyone away from religion but I think it's important for someone who has questions to hear from both sides.

I don't mean to step on any toes but I seen a few people say there is no proof of evolution. This couldn't be further from the truth. Evolution is 100% fact. We just don't know all the odds and ends yet. For people to say it's just a theory is misleading.

As far as contradictions in the Bible, there are too many to even list. If there were no contradictions in the Bible there would not be hundreds of different beliefs and ideas. In my opinion though, contradictions really have nothing to do with whether there is a God. It would just mean he had little to do if any of the book being written. Again this is not an entirely bad thing, nor should it sway someone from religion. Religion is supposed to be about the heart. There was never any proof of a God at any time. People have always needed faith. Anytime I bring up the proof argument to my mother, she just looks at me and says "if there was any proof everyone would be christians, if everyone were christians heaven would be pretty full, and I hate crowds"

So Mom, I say to You, I am doing my part to make sure there is plenty of breathing room for you in heaven... lol