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krazie-t · Mar 11, 2008, 03:12 PM

Hello, I recently this past weekend was replacing a ceiling fan, due to the fact the old previous fan, only the light worked, and not the fan portion, so I purchased another replacement fan, of a fairly cheap price approx. 20 dollars at the local Home Depot, and went home to mount it. I connected all the wires like they were when I removed the old fan. When I removed the old fan, the electrical box in the ceiling contained 2 sets of wires coming into the box, so basically it is: 2 black wires, 2 white wires, and 2 grounds. The 2 blacks were twined together, same for the 2 whites, and the 2 grounds. So with the new fan in my hand I twined the new wires from the fan into the wires in the ceiling. I connected the wires like this Fan blue and black to ceiling black, and fan white wire to ceiling white wire, and fan ground to ceiling ground. After the wiring was completed and the fan was mounted, I turned the breaker ON, and then the fan worked.

After 3 days past, I tried to turn the fan ON, and nothing worked, I replaced the wall switch, and nothing still, I tested the wires in the ceiling and I get current from 1 set of wires in the ceiling, and from the set of wires I get a reading of current from the black wire and ground, Nothing from the white wire or the 2nd set of wires in the ceiling. So I am completely lost as to what's wrong, I'm not sure if the fan broke, and is a bad unit, or something happened. Sorry for a long detailed writing but I just thought I'd be detailed, so you'll be able to understand the exact situation. Thanks guys I'd appreciate the help... This is not my first ceiling fan installation, it's more like my 4th install, but I've worked on newer homes, and this home I'm working on is fairly OLD, like 20+ years. Also the fans I've worked on only had 1 pair of wires coming through the ceiling, not 2. Thanks again guys for all your help!

donf · Mar 11, 2008, 03:32 PM

Greetings,

When you first got a look into the ceiling box you described two pairs of black and white wires.

Did you notice if one of the white wires had some black tape around it?

I believe you are looking at a feed line from the breaker and a Black/White pair going off in the general direction of the wall switch. This is called a Switch Loop.

Normally, a switch loop is created by connecting the two black wires (Feed and Switch) in the ceiling together. The return loop is the white wire. One end also goes to the wall switch and the other connect (at least in your case) to the Black, Blue and White (with black or red tape on it) You put the tape on the White wire to show that it is not being used to carry return voltage or current back to the neutral of the SEP. It now being used to carry Voltage from the switch to both the lamp and fan.

Question, is the wall switch a dimmer switch? If it is, than that's a no, no. You cannot connect the fan motor to a dimmer switch. It creates a fire hazard at the motor.

However, you can connect the blue wire to the dimmer and run a second line up to the fan and put that on a switch that is made for fans.

krazie-t · Mar 11, 2008, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by krazie-t

Hello, I recently this past weekend was replacing a ceiling fan, due to the fact the old previous fan, only the light worked, and not the fan portion, so I purchased another replacement fan, of a fairly cheap price approx. 20 dollars at the local Home Depot, and went home to mount it. I connected all the wires like they were when I removed the old fan. When I removed the old fan, the electrical box in the ceiling contained 2 sets of wires coming into the box, so basically it is: 2 black wires, 2 white wires, and 2 grounds. The 2 blacks were twined together, same for the 2 whites, and the 2 grounds. So with the new fan in my hand I twined the new wires from the fan into the wires in the ceiling. I connected the wires like this Fan blue and black to ceiling black, and fan white wire to ceiling white wire, and fan ground to ceiling ground. After the wiring was completed and the fan was mounted, I went ahead and turned the breaker ON, and then the fan worked.

After 3 days past, I tryed to turn the fan ON, and nothing worked, I replaced the wall switch, and nothing still, I tested the wires in the ceiling and I get current from 1 set of wires in the ceiling, and from the set of wires I get a reading of current from the black wire and ground, Nothing from the white wire or the 2nd set of wires in the ceiling. So I am completely lost as to whats wrong, I'm not sure if the fan broke, and is a bad unit, or something happend. Sorry for a long detailed writing but I just thought i'd be detailed, so you'll be able to understand the exact situation. Thanks guys I'd appreciate the help...This is not my first ceiling fan installation, it's more like my 4th install, but i've worked on newer homes, and this home I'm working on is fairly OLD, like 20+ years. Also the fans I've worked on only had 1 pair of wires coming thru the ceiling, not 2. Thanks again guys for all your help!.

The switch on the wall, is a 3-way switch. I also checked the switch when I replaced it, and all that's in that hole is 1 set of wires which is 1 black, 1 white, and 1 ground, that's all. But yes the switch is not a dimmer switch is an "on and off" switch. Another thing is, when I check for current am I supposed to get a reading of current by touching the black and white wires, because when I do that, I don't get a reading, my only reading comes from when I touch the black and ground wires from one of the pairs, and then that's when I get a reading on my digital multimeter, of roughly 118 volts.

hkstroud · Mar 11, 2008, 07:49 PM

If you truly have a 3-way switch and only have a black, a white and a ground in th switch box someone is using the ground as a conductor. Three way switches require three conductors between switches. There is an inconsistency with that wiring (the switch) and what you said about both blacks, both whites and both grounds being connected in the ceiling box.

You said that when you turned the breaker on the fan began to run. Were you able to turn it off? If so from which switch. Did someone turn the fan off using the pull chain?

Suggest you take another look at all of your wiring, in both switches and the ceiling box and tell us what you have.

ballengerb1 · Mar 11, 2008, 08:12 PM

Sorry to jump in late but where is the second switch if you are sure this is a 3 way switch, I'm not. I am starting to think this is not a switch loop either since both blacks were twisted together and boith whites twisted together same for ground. "2 black wires, 2 white wires, and 2 grounds. The 2 blacks were twined together, same for the 2 whites" sounds prety straight away for me. The biggest question I have is HD does not have any fan what so ever for $20 so what did you buy? I'm more confused than Don and Harold.

ceilingfanrepair · Mar 11, 2008, 09:31 PM

Is anything else on the same switch as the fan?

If the new fan is wired the same as the old fan, and the new fan worked for a period, and now does not work, and there is still voltage at the supply.. . Then there is a bad connection somewhere at or in the new fan.

donf · Mar 12, 2008, 07:11 AM

Krazie-t,

You do not want to check for amperage with your meter. You need to check for voltage. Set the meter on 240 VAC or what ever amount is above the 120 VAC. Always test, at least initially, on a higher scale. With the black probe on the White wire in the ceiling and the red probe on the black wire, do you get a voltage reading and if so, how much voltage is there?

Next test, leaving the probes clipped to the B/W pair, toggle the switch from off to on and back again. Did you see the voltage appear at the meter, if yes, how much did you see? Finally, find the second switch that controls the overhead and toggle that switch and watch for voltage at the overhead.

There is a secondary method that can be used to bring voltage to the overhead for the fan and light. Power is brought to the switch on the line in (usually lower switch screw, Black). You do this by cutting the Black lead and connecting the lead to the lower screw connection. The you continue the connection to the ceiling by connecting the remaining black lead to the top screw of the switch. This method will put power to the fan and light whenever the switch is toggled to the up position. At the ceiling, you would tie Black from the switch Black from the fan, Blue from the light into a pigtail that is secured by a wire nut. Next connect the two white wires together with a wire nut and tie the bare ground leads together.

You now say you believe that the wall switch is a "Three Way, switch, please describe the switch on the front, does it say Off and On? Also, please describe the wiring on the back of the switch. Start at the bottom left as you look at it then move to bot. right, top right and finally top left>

Thanks in advance for the help.

krazie-t · Mar 12, 2008, 10:17 PM

Hello Donf, thanks guys for working with me on this and trying to find a solution, I did use my meter and set it to measure VAC, and from only 1 set of wires, remember there are 2 sets in the ceiling, welll from 1 set I got a reading of approx. 118 volts on the black wire, and nothing from the white wire, my reading for the black was when I touch the black wire with the red prong on the meter, and the black prong went to the ground wire. Also the switch on the wall, it's not cutting off current going into the ceiling fan, so when the fan worked, to turn it off I had to use the pull chains. But anyway my switch on the box it said 3-way switch. I took it out of the box, and from looking at it, on the bottom left it has a BRASS screw, and on the bottom right it has a GROUND screw, and on the Top left it has a BLACK screw, and that's all, just 3 screws. Also no ON or OFF labeling, it just has a switch up and down.

donf · Mar 13, 2008, 09:34 AM

Krazi-t,

Well now that switch has really piquéd my interest. Switches only carry voltage. It's a binary format, either the power is on to the attached circuit or it is not on. It really sounds, as discussed earlier, that this is a three way switch that is being used as a toggle switch. Either the original electrician ran out of the correct switch and stuck this one in or a DIYer picked up the wrong switch type and figured out how to wire the switch. However, normally the three way will receive power on the bottom left (brass) screw should be a black wire. And when it is in the on position the top two terminals supply power to the connected circuits. These leads are called "travelers or runners".

Is there any way you could get a digital pic of the back of the outlet and using the "Advanced" section of the response attach the image to your response before you touch any wiring? If you cannot get it into the item, send it to me at [email protected]. I'll take a look at it and then append it to this thread.

On the three possible terminals, there is only one black wire? It's not a pair as in Black on one terminal and white on another or even two black wires?

Turn the switch lever to the down position. Then clip your probes to the Black (Red probe) White, (Black lead, do you see any VAC between the leads?

Next, work the switch and see if in one position (UP) power appears on the meter. And then put the switch handle to the off position, Any voltage?

If the answer is no, I want you to leave the probes in place and set the meter for a resistance test (Ohms). If your meter allows you to, set it for
1K ohms. Now. Put the switch handle back in the up position, the meter jump towards 0 (zero)? If so, we now know that this wire is the switch for this outlet. So we can now connect the Load Carrying Black lead to the switch's Black. Please turn off the breaker that controls the hot line to the ceiling. Now, the White from the switch, does it have black tape on it?
If it does, you would connect the white wire from the switch to the Black and Blue from the fan and light package. The white from the Fan would connect to the White from the Power Source (118 VAC). And the bare ground wires would also connect to the to the bare line from the switch and the bare wire from the fan.

Waiting to hear back from you.

ceilingfanrepair · Mar 13, 2008, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by krazie-t

Also the switch on the wall, it's not cutting off current going into the ceiling fan, so when the fan worked, to turn it off I had to use the pull chains.

Was this always the case?

donf · Mar 14, 2008, 12:20 PM

Krazie-t,

Still waiting to hear from you or to get the pics on the switch.

donf · Mar 15, 2008, 02:09 PM

Krazie-t

What is the status of your problem?

krazie-t · Mar 17, 2008, 10:00 PM

The fan used to be turned off by the wall switch. Donf sorry about the delay, I've been back in worth, I went over this weekend to the triplex house that has the electrical issue I explained earlier, I took another look and messed with the fan again, and nothing worked again. I did test the fan at my own house and it works perfect, so... that means the fan isn't defective, it's the wiring/electrical problem. But anyway Donf I didn't grab any photos, because I just now read your reply, but I can explain how the switch looks. The switch is just a toggle up and down switch for the wall, it's white, but Doesn't say "ON" or "OFF", it's just a plain switch. On the sides there are 4 screws, on the top left corner, there is a black screw, on the bottom left there is a Brass screw, and on the bottom right corner, there is another brass screw, and more towards the bottom back, there is a smaller screw that's green for the ground wire. On the back of the switch there are just 3 small holes were you can insert the wires, and that's all.

Back to about testing the wires for current, I did test again the wires in the wall at the switch with my meter, and when I touch the red prong from the meter to the black wire, and the black prong to the white wire... I get NO reading, but when I touch the reg prong to the black wire and black prong to the ground, then I get a reading of approx. 118V. Also vise versa too, when I touch the red prong to the white wire at the wall switch and the black prong to the black wire I get NO reading, but then when I place the red prong on the white wire, and the black prong on the ground, then I get a reading. That's the same thing with the wires in the ceiling, when I touch the white and black wires with the prongs I get no reading, but when I touch either wires to the ground I get a reading. Also just to let you know I do have my meter set to: VAC 200 setting by the way.

ballengerb1 · Mar 18, 2008, 08:20 AM

When you test wires at a switch with the switch in the off position you will only get current from one wire, should be the black coming to the switch. Black to ground will show current, flip the switch to ON and now you should get current between the other wire and ground. If so, put a wrap of electrical tape on the end of that other wire. If this is what you find then your switch tests out good. When you test at the fan is the switch in the ON position?