[NeedKarma]

jillianleab,

[N0help4u]

I think there is a difference between experimenting the usual stuff and
Experimenting with what a book like this teaches.
Also this gives them the impression that anything goes.
To me it they might as well be teaching why don't you go out in the street and do it the way dogs do it.
Look at what NAMBLA promotes---basically the same as what I hear these kids saying.

[jillianleab]

I think there is a difference between experimenting the usual stuff and
experimenting with what a book like this teaches.
Also this gives them the impression that anything goes.
To me it they might as well be teaching why don't you go out in the street and do it the way dogs do it.
Look at what NAMBLA promotes---basically the same as what I hear these kids saying.

You hear teens talking about wanting to have sex with pre-pubescent boys? Glad I don't live in your town.

And sorry, but what do you mean "experimenting the usual stuff and experimenting with what a book like this teaches"? By "the usual stuff" do you mean hetero experimenting? Because when I said kids have been experimenting forever I meant hetero and homosexual ways. I'm not sure what you mean by "anything goes" either. It's sex - anything does go (when it's consensual), but if one of the lessons in this play is about HIV/AIDS infection because of unprotected sex, that teaches them that anything doesn't go. I'm also not sure how you draw the conclusion that this piece is equated with going out in the street and doing it like dogs...

But you didn't answer my question about what you specifically oppose about the play. The homosexual acts? The language? The age group it's being taught to? All of it?

[N0help4u]

I mean from what was typical in the 50's and 60's to what NAMBLA teaches.
LOOK up what NAMBLA teaches and that is what our society is heading for.
And what I mean by teens talking about wanting to have sex with pre-pubescent boys
I mean 20 year olds and older with teens and pre-pubescent and I am not talking where
I live. I hear it from many states.

[speechlesstx]

But those who don't believe in god aren't outraged when you say you believe in god. Why the double-standard?

NK, I have no idea how you could possibly come to that conclusion based on what I've said. There is no double standard on my part and I'm not outraged when people say they don't believe in God, so what's your point? All I'm asking for in this regard is the same respect for my beliefs, values and sensitivities that's demanded of me. I think that sounds reasonable.

[N0help4u]

I hear more people outraged AT people who talk about God and religion.
They start screaming about their rights being violated and so forth because they hear you saying your beliefs
Like it is going to kill them to hear something they are so against

[jillianleab]

I mean from what was typical in the 50's and 60's to what NAMBLA teaches.
LOOK up what NAMBLA teaches and that is what our society is heading for.
And what I mean by teens talking about wanting to have sex with pre-pubescent boys
I mean 20 year olds and older with teens and pre-pubescent and I am not talking where
I live. I hear it from many states.

NAMBLA wants to legalize sex between adult men and underage boys; I have seen zero evidence of anyone but NAMBLA supporting this point of view. Yet you think this is what our society is headed for? Why, because what they say is protected by free speech? I'm not sure what your point is here, or why you think NAMBLA is a prime example.

[NeedKarma]

Yet you think this is what our society is headed for? Why,

She thinks the world is going to end in about 12 years.

[jillianleab]

She thinks the world is going to end in about 12 years.

NK, you have a way of making everything make sense... :D

[N0help4u]

Creeping incrementalism
Hidden agenda

They DO NOT want you to see where it is leading to.
That is the way things go in our society.
They are not going to say well today we are going to teach kids how to put condoms on a
Pickle in the 5th grade, by 2008 we are going to try to get that book accepted
But by 2030 something like man boy relationships people will say just what you are now saying -that it is nothing to be concerned about.
What would have shocked many people in the 50's and 60's is now acceptable
What will be acceptable by 2030 will be stuff beyond what you now say I draw the line at.

[N0help4u]

I don't think the world is going to end in 12 years
I think it is going to be worse than we can imagine in 15 to 25 years.

[startover22]

Creeping incrementalism
Hidden agenda

They DO NOT want you to see where it is leading to.
That is the way things go in our society.
They are not going to say well today we are going to teach kids how to put condoms on a
pickle in the 5th grade, by 2008 we are going to try to get that book accepted
but by 2030 something like man boy relationships people will say just what you are now saying -that it is nothing to be concerned about.
What would have shocked many people in the 50's and 60's is now acceptable
What will be acceptable by 2030 will be stuff beyond what you now say I draw the line at.

I have to agree with ths statement. I never ever thought this world would be like it is today. I still go back to teaching our kids the right way to live. If we all make it a point to be involved this world would be a better place to live. So if you know a kid and know they are involved or even thinking about these things then talk with them, let them know their thoughts and feelings are VALID. Even adults like me need to hear that every once in a while just so I know I am not a crazy woman. Parents have a big job ahead of them... and so do the kids. The mind needs to stay open but clear, and that is the problem here. This would be taking it way off subject, but when I read a scary book or a thriller with ideas in it, I know it's a book, in that book, those kids know it's a skit... RIGHT? I wouldn't come up with a master plan to murder someone from a book and any kid that has been informed enough isn't going to just go out and do what is in that either... at least I hope not. The message is not to get aids, not to go out and get screwed...

[jillianleab]

Creeping incrementalism
Hidden agenda

They DO NOT want you to see where it is leading to.
That is the way things go in our society.
They are not going to say well today we are going to teach kids how to put condoms on a
pickle in the 5th grade, by 2008 we are going to try to get that book accepted
but by 2030 something like man boy relationships people will say just what you are now saying -that it is nothing to be concerned about.
What would have shocked many people in the 50's and 60's is now acceptable
What will be acceptable by 2030 will be stuff beyond what you now say I draw the line at.

So you're shocked and appalled that as time goes on people's ideals and morals change? That what society considers acceptable changes? Yes, let's go back to the 1950's, and have segregation and no Civil Rights Act. You do know that NAMBLA is largely dismantled now, right? They no longer have regular meetings, they have no main office, and are rarely politically active anymore.

You seem to be heading a totally opposite direction that where you started, and this has gotten quite off topic. So unless you want to answer my question from several posts ago about what you specifically object to about this play being taught in schools, I think it's best we stop this line of discussion.

[N0help4u]

So NAMBLA is dismantled the members are still alive and well.
So NAMBLA won't promote these things.
Doesn't mean what they are/were into will not be what is acceptable in 20 -30 years from now.

What do I object to in that book?
Fine teach it and we will see where things are in 20-30 years from now.

I sure do not see any educational value to it.

[startover22]

Nohelp, this is one of those things that you will never be able to stop even if you wanted to, so we have to do our jobs as adults and make sure we inform the kids otherwise.

[jillianleab]

N0help4u, I never said the book should or should not be taught. The argument I'm making is that just because of the subject matter and the language doesn't mean it has no literary value. But you still avoided my question. That's OK, you don't have to answer it. It seems you might not really know why you oppose it, you just do.

But if you worry about the fate of the world in 20 or 30 years, perhaps you should focus your energies on making sure your own children and those in your own life have the values and morals you want them to. But change isn't always bad - in the 1950's it was socially unacceptable for a black man and white woman to be married, today it's OK and society hasn't collapsed yet. So maybe you think homosexual rights will collapse society, but people thought that in the 1950's about interracial couples too. And I'd say in general, children's rights have become more protected as time goes on, not less (child labor, child marriage, child abuse, etc), so I really doubt the NAMBLA message will gain any steam, no matter how much time passes.

[N0help4u]

Nohelp, this is one of those things that you will never be able to stop even if you wanted to, so we have to do our jobs as adults and make sure we inform the kids otherwise.

Agree greenie: I know

I just see so many kids totally confused about their own sexuality in so many ways
Because they are being taught all these different things.

[N0help4u]

I never said change is always bad,
but civil rights of blacks is an apples and oranges comparison.
I see no value in the book. I am sure there are much more educational books on the subject.

what does the book actually teach?

I see so many kids totally confused about their own sexuality in so many ways
because they are being taught all these different things and they have no direction for their own self.

I hear kids saying what is wrong with me I am 20 years old and never kissed.
What is wrong with me I can't get pregnant, I am 14.
20 year old boys saying they lay on the bed and SHOW 13 year old boys how to !@#% off because the 13 year old is afraid he is not doing it right.
I hear kids saying I have no idea if I am gay and I am worried I might be cause I don't want to be
I hear many many kids say they are not gay they just like doing it with the same sex but they are 100% straight

[NeedKarma]

agree greenie: I know

I just see so many kids totally confused about their own sexuality in so many ways
because they are being taught all these different things.

Nope, because their parents are that way.

[N0help4u]

Nope, because their parents are that way.

Often their parents have no idea.
Often their parents have no idea they even know about two men and anal.
Yes it is up to the parents but many parents assume too much and ignore and neglect other things.