[Wondergirl]

You should be fair with responsibility for the budget deficits

I was referring to the exorbitant costs due to an unnecessary war in another part of the world.

[magprob]

England just had its first run on a bank. Norther Rock. America is right behind you. We will have a few runs on the banks here soon I'm betting. After the government bails their Wall Street sweet hearts out, we won't be able to afford free anything. It's all campaign caca.

[inthebox]

Hello again:

Me and my distinctions......... The first is the idea; should we educate our children. The second is the process.

I don’t disagree with any of you in terms of the process. It's broken - has been for a long time. We're spending more and getting dumber.

This thread, however, has primarily been about the process - how to pay for it, the schools suck, the kids are there for a free ride, they're too damn liberal.... I dunno. Complaints abound.

But, because the process is broken doesn't mean it has to stay that way. It doesn't mean that it can't be fixed. It doesn't mean that we should give up. You guys sound like a bunch of naysayers...... You guys are stuck talking about the process.

Educating our children is smart. It's something we SHOULD do. It's a GOOD thing. Tom is the only one who pointed out a reason why it might not be good. There'll be nobody around to cook his burgers.

All Obama is doing is talking about the possibilities. We like hearing about what we CAN do, rather than what we can’t.

excon

Like you say education is a good thing, and the question really is who should pay for it at the post high school level.

The taxpayor or the student, most of whom are over the age of 18 and, therefore, can take on choice and responsibility instead of expecting to be spoon fed and waited on all their life at the taxpayors expense.

I thought you were a libertarian?

If you go to any major research university, in the hard sciences, you will find an over representation of Asians and Indians. Most of whom are foreign and are busting their butts to get an education, not expecting it free. What is wrong with American raised students that they are not willing to sacrifice and work hard for their futures? Why is Obama appealing to this?

I got my bachelors at 20, got my post grad degree before 25, went on to underpaid professional training, and was not in "the real world" till close to 30. All the while accumulating debt from school loans. My generation and the generation before me, in my field went through this.

With the current state of the economy - ? Recession, sinking dollar, the war in Iraq, the subprime mortgage mess, rising gasoline and food prices... baby boomers reaching 65 now and the expected increase in entitlement spending, let alone the solvency of the Soc Sec system in question,

Medicare Spending to Surge - WSJ.com


How realistic and responsible is it for Obama to put out the idea of"free" college?
How is it going to get paid for ?


And this is before we even get onto Obama's tax stance.

Tax Delusions


"In short, Obama is a "tax-and-spend" liberal, while Hillary is a "spend-and-tax" liberal. If either actually launched their gargantuan spending plans on the basis of imaginary revenues expected from taxing the rich, he or she would quickly end up having to tax the stuffing out of the middle class."

[Wondergirl]

an over representation of Asians and Indians. Most of whom are foreign and are busting their butts to get an education, not expecting it free.

On weekends at Chicagoland libraries, there is an over-representation of Asians (Indians are Asians). Where are the white kids? Hmmm, they are at the fast-food places flipping burgers (for Tom probably) and working as cashiers at stores in the malls. Why are they working instead of studying at the library? They are earning money to pay for their snazzy cars and the gasoline guzzled and the insurance required--the snazzy cars that they need to get to work.

Now, ask around to find out how the Asian students get to school and the library and then home again

[tomder55]

Yes wondergirl you do have to question the priorities of some of the "white kids" . (this is actually getting a little too sterotypical for my liking) . I was flipping burgers and doing anything else I could from the age of 12 to earn money ;not to buy fancy cars ,but to pay for my college education . Maybe I should feel wronged because I wasn't entitled to a "free education" . Had my parents been poorer I could've probably at least gotten a guaranteed low cost loan .They couldn't pay for my schooling because of many factors including high medical expenses for my sister (kidney failure). But somehow I do not think I was entitled to it. My folks were responsible for me until I was 18 and I did not expect them to be responsible beyond that . Anything they did past 18 like letting me live in their house was a bonus that I am forever grateful for . When I went to school I continued to "flip burgers"(worked in the college cafeteria) and in the summers took any job that would pay $$ . One summer I did camp counselor in the day and ripped tickets at the theater by night. Other jobs included maintenance at Grumman Aerospace,road construction ,and I worked at an injection molding plant making water coolers(that job really sucked.) .The couple of years my family lived in Iran I travelled to visit them .Even there I tried to find work (the Peace Corp turned me down ) . Perhaps if I got my education for "free" which again means that I pick someone else's pocket on my behalf,then I would not have as well rounded experiences.So I in no way feel slighted because my education was not "free" .

[George_1950]

I was referring to the exorbitant costs due to an unnecessary war in another part of the world.

"Land of the free and home of the victims
by Ernest Istook
February 29, 2008 |

I wish I were a victim. Then people would give me things, and government would take care of me.

That's a dominant message on the presidential campaign trail, where some candidates preach that we have become a nation of victims, and that government is the only shining knight who can ride to our rescue.

Sadly, we've fallen to the point where this argument often works.

Using the politics of fear rather than hope, these candidates want to expand a failed war: the "War on Poverty," which has cost America trillions but produced no victory. They now are calling for a permanent surge of programs to cover the middle class - an expansion of the same failed strategy that has given us a permanent underclass that depends on government.

They hope to lure more Americans into this quagmire by convincing them that we are victims.

According to Sens. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, America is a place where the middle class is repressed.

Here's the heart of the Clinton argument, in her website's words:

Hillary has a plan to restore America's middle class. After six and a half years of Bush administration policies, the middle class is struggling to succeed in an economy that is leaving more and more Americans behind.

Income inequality has risen to the highest levels since 1929, and wages have stagnated. In the meantime, health care premiums and college tuition have skyrocketed, squeezing middle-class families who have largely relied on their home equity to make ends meet. The burgeoning problems in the housing market further threaten many middle-class families.

Obama describes it this way on his website:

While wages remain flat, the costs of basic necessities are increasing. The cost of in-state college tuition has grown 35 percent over the past five years. Health care costs have risen four times faster than wages over the past six years. And the personal savings rate is now the lowest it's been since the Great Depression.

For both candidates, the answer to all these problems is a rush of new government programs that makes Lyndon B. Johnson look like Ronald Reagan:"
Enjoy: Land of the free and home of the victims

[Allheart]

yes wondergirl you do have to question the priorities of some of the "white kids" . (this is actually getting a little too sterotypical for my liking) . I was flipping burgers and doing anything else I could from the age of 12 to earn money ;not to buy fancy cars ,but to pay for my college education . Maybe I should feel wronged because I wasn't entitled to a "free education" . Had my parents been poorer I could've probably at least gotten a guaranteed low cost loan .They couldn't pay for my schooling because of many factors including high medical expenses for my sister (kidney failure). But somehow I do not think I was entitled to it. My folks were responsible for me until I was 18 and I did not expect them to be responsible beyond that . Anything they did past 18 like letting me live in their house was a bonus that I am forever grateful for . When I went to school I continued to "flip burgers"(worked in the college cafeteria) and in the summers took any job that would pay $$ . One summer I did camp counselor in the day and ripped tickets at the theater by night. Other jobs included maintainance at Grumman Aerospace,road construction ,and I worked at an injection molding plant making water coolers(that job really sucked.) .The couple of years my family lived in Iran I travelled to visit them .Even there I tried to find work (the Peace Corp turned me down ) . Perhaps if I got my education for "free" which again means that I pick someone elses pocket on my behalf,then I would not have as well rounded experiences.So I in no way feel slighted because my education was not "free" .

I too worked my tail off from age 12 (raking leaves and such till I could get working papers at age 16) but that was for my gradeschool and high school tution. I worked during the week and all weekends. And proud as heck for it. And feel better for it. That's why when it came for college, I was just too darn tired. Literally.

I just want all of our children to have as much opportunities as possible. I agree, no handouts, but let's come up with some sort of plan where those that are willing, rich or not rich, obtain higher education, but yes, must pay back in some sort of way.

Those parents who wish there child to go to the more "elite" colleges will then need to pay for it themselves.

Just like grades K through 12, you can opt to attend for free or if you wish other, you have to pay.

Let's try something. Give it an attempt to work before coming up with every reason not to.

Let's meet in the middle.

[kp2171]

I worked from 12 on up through college... but I think there should be a balance of responsibility...

My daughters had to work for play money, but school has been her primary job, and helping her be able to focus on this first, and then play money second (including cell phone bill, gas, etc) was a good in between.

Shell pay for school after she grads, and we've assumed a financial obligation as well. In the end.

[George_1950]

i worked from 12 on up through college... but i think there should be a balance of responsibility...

my daughters had to work for play money, but school has been her primary job, and helping her be able to focus on this first, and then play money second (including cell phone bill, gas, etc) was a good in between.

shell pay for school after she grads, and weve assumed a financial obligation as well. in the end.

This is how it should be, a family looking after family. This business about the government paying for education is a Faustian bargain, and really is immoral, stealing from Peter to pay Pam.

[Allheart]

My parents were divorced and Mom had 5 girls... poor Dad.

But I feel so guilty for saying I paid for HS tuition when Mom fed and clothed me an all.

When I worked 1/3 of my pay went to Mom... 1/3 in the bank (that's what covered the HS tuition) and 1/3 she let me keep :).

I did however get a reduction in my tuition because of my circumstanses and the grade school picked up the difference (that didn't make me feel real good, but I am very grateful)

Three of the girls went to live with Dad and the two of us where with Mom (Dad was much less strict :). So that's why I had to pitch in as well.

I wouldn't trade it for anything. Because every little thing I am grateful for because I know how hard it is to come by.

Even back then if college was an option - as I said, I would have passed. It was for many reasons, but my mind just seemed to reject Acadmeics from entering. LOL I am not putting myself down. Religion and English classes I loved... the rest... major brain block.

[George_1950]

Love is priceless. When I watch Hillary or Obama or W advocating for more government in education, health care, farming, take your pick, it is not about love. It's about stealing, legal theft. You can wrap and market these programs however you wish, but in the final analysis it's all about April 15: pay or go to jail.

[kp2171]

This is how it should be, a family looking after family. This business about the government paying for education is a Faustian bargain, and really is immoral, stealing from Peter to pay Pam.

Now govt did help us...

Loans through the dept of ed for four years. Sure they get some interest, but by the time you wade through the layers, you know they aren't making money... its still taxpayer sponsored in the end. But.. a program that certainly helped reasonably when I needed it.

We didn't get a free ride... we didn't get hammered financially, tho' part of that was reasonable planning on our part.

But we'll just have to see what happens in the next two years when the ripples of the credit crunch keep spreading... isn't over yet... just beginning

[ladyjoker91]

I don't think it's a bad idea. In fact, it's a brilliant idea, only thing I would change is "...every..." part because I think only the poor and middle class shouldn't have to pay. Let the Rich put out some cash!! It should be put in effect immediately, because Im going to college this fall :)

[xxariesxx]

I think that it is a good idea, as long as there is an agreement that one has to get certain grades in order to receive the financial aid. Obviously no one deserves to have their college paid for if they're failing classes and just there for the "party experience." I'm a college student right now, I get mostly As and a few Bs, and I receive little financial help at all even though my parents are unable to help me pay for college. When I graduate, just with my undergrad degree, I'll be over $40,000 in debt, all to be educated in something that will ultimately give back to society - it's as if one is paying their future employer. Even if university costs were scaled back quite a bit, to a reasonable amount, would be extremely heplful. It's sad that education is a business now.

[tomder55]

No such thing as a "free education " someone is paying for it.

[speechlesstx]

Socialism doesn't work very well.

And yet, that's exactly where the "enlightened" want to take us. I've often wondered if they're so enlightened why can't they see the evidence of Socialism's failures that's right in front of their faces? Or is it that they know it and just don't care because it's all about consolidating power? I say it's the latter...

[excon]

I've often wondered if they're so enlightened why can't they see the evidence of Socialism's failures that's right in front of their faces?

Hello speech:

I don't know... We're on the precipice of possibly the WORST DEPRESSION ever experienced by modern man - which was, by the way, caused by the EXCESSES of unfettered capitalism.

That's right in front of your face, and you don't see it.

excon

[George_1950]

... the EXCESSES of unfettered capitalism.

That's right in front of your face, and you don't see it.

excon

You have to be drinking or smoking or injecting... ; 'unfettered capitalism'? Show it to me.

[speechlesstx]

Hello speech:

I dunno.... We're on the precipice of possibly the WORST DEPRESSION ever experienced by modern man - which was, by the way, caused by the EXCESSES of unfettered capitalism.

That's right in front of your face, and you don't see it.

excon

And Socialism is the answer? I have yet to see any "unfettered capitalism" in my lifetime, businesses are regulated out the wazoo. Besides the usual regulatory agencies involved, my place of business has to comply with OSHA, NFPA, MSHA, ANSI, NIOSH, USCG, DOE, State and local fire marshals and perhaps the mother of all governmental agencies aside from the IRS - DOT. You should see what we have to go through to work at the local nuke plant. What "unfettered capitalism" are you referring to, and besides the regulatory failures I acknowledge, perhaps loaning thousands and thousands of dollars to people who can't pay it back would be a good practice to end?

[tomder55]

Perhaps if there was some unfettered capitalism then the housing bubble would not have happened. The demand side of the market was created by Congress and the Presidents of the last 2 decades who, with good intentions, tried to make home owners of people who could not afford it.