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scottinminnesota · Feb 22, 2008, 02:08 PM

I am remodeling an existing bathroom in my basement and would like to know if the way I have this laid out is acceptable. On the drawing I have noted where a toilet flange is located. I was planning on tying the three inch line that will serve the tub, washer, and vanity into this 4". the toilet is approximately 14 feet from the stack. Will i need a vent and how can i tie that in if i need one. Will the water running thru the 3" line from the washer suck the trap dry on the tub? The wall on the side of the vanity and bathtub are accessible from the backside. Any thoughts or changes would be helpful
Scott

massplumber2008 · Feb 22, 2008, 04:18 PM

Hey Minnesota... I took a look and think we can help you to get this done.

On the existing toilet pipe that you want to connect the 3 inch into... is there a vent connected near here for the toilet by itself?

So yes, you will need a vent at toilet. If that vent is taken off the toilet pipe properly then can wet vent the tub using that... I will explain more as we go.

The vanity will also require its own vent, the way you have this laid out.

Now the washing machine for upstairs... no problem as long as it is properly vented and the fixtures in basement are vented properly as well. NOTE here, that cleanouts will be important above ground.

Have you exposed the toilet pipe underground yet? What pipe is used in your area PVC or ABS? ANd be clear, there are some pretty odd rules to follow if you want this system to work properly, so bear with me as I explain..

Are you pulling permits? ANSWER all my questions ASAP... I am going to try to draw something for you and post back tomorrow morning. Check back then.

If you have any questions... just let me know.

scottinminnesota · Feb 22, 2008, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by massplumber2008

Hey Minnesota...I took a look and think we can help you to get this done.

On the existing toilet pipe that you want to connect the 3 inch into...is there a vent connected near here for the toilet by itself?
about 6 feet downstream there is the piping that is shown in attached photo. 1 1/2 baths and the laundry that i want to move to the new 3" are on there. At the moment the laundry is not vented nor is the bathtub/shower on the main level. A 1 1/2 inch drain comes from the kitchen and dumps into the cleanout next to where i want the new toilet. The kitchen is not vented other than an AAV that i installed when i moved in.

So yes, you will need a vent at toilet. If that vent is taken off the toilet pipe properly then can wet vent the tub using that...I will explain more as we go.
Is it possible to use an AAV installed where the cleanout is?

The vanity will also require its own vent, the way you have this layed out.

Now the washing machine for upstairs...no problem as long as it is properly vented and the fixtures in basement are vented properly as well. NOTE here, that cleanouts will be important above ground.
i am planning on bringing that three inch up as high as possible and then dumping the washing machine in there. Would it be possible to put an AAV on the top of that 3" which would vent that 3 inch line?

Have you exposed the toilet pipe underground yet? What pipe is used in your area PVC or ABS? ANd be clear, there are some pretty odd rules to follow if you want this system to work properly, so bear with me as I explain..
We use PVC in this area.

i have all of the concrete removed from where i need to run new piping. All underground is Cast and i will be replacing all of it in the bathroom. which i will be replacing. A fernco is an acceptable connector correct?

Are you pulling permits? ANSWER all my quetions ASAP... I am going to try to draw something for you and post back tomorrow morning. Check back then.
I will not be pulling any permits.

If you have any questions...just let me know.

i will be checking this periodically tonight so let me know if you have any questions.

massplumber2008 · Feb 22, 2008, 06:19 PM

OK... 1st time here trying to post a PAINT picture... So wish us luck! NOTE that I will explain in a following post or two.

1st, if no other 2" pipe near existing toilet at basement then by your picture...the basement toilet is not vented (is there a sink nearby where the basement toilet is? This may be the toilet vent...let me know).

To respond to your answers:

1) You will need to call your town/city codes enforcement (or next town over ;) ) and see if AAVs are accepted in your area.....if they are not then I say that at this time you bite the bullet and run vents as you need to (If not you at should at least make sure any AAVs you do use are accessible for future replacement..ok?).

2) You do not need a three inch line in your case...not even close...You do need a 2" line (see my drawing at the next post)... and an AAV if acceptable.. yes, at least 6 inches above the top of the washing machine (ALL VENTS MUST CONNECT INTO VENT STACKS AT LEAST SIX INCHES ABOVE THE RIM OF THE HIGHEST FIXTURE ON THAT FLOOR...SO MAIN FLOOR HIGHEST FIXTURE IS WM, SO 6 INCHES ABOVE....BASEMENT HAS LAVATORY AS HIGHEST FIXTURE, SO VENT MUST CONNECT INTO VENT STACK AT LEAST SIX INCHES ABOVE SINK RIM).

3) Ferncos are not acceptable. You need mission clamps or similar transition clamps.. will explain more (see pic.)

4) PVC... cool.

5) Boo!. I like to see all work inspected.. but I will still try to help ;)

6) HOPE MY NEXT POST WORKS... two views... what I would like to see if you can do it. *crossing fingers*... BRB

scottinminnesota · Feb 22, 2008, 07:06 PM

The original sink that was in that bathroom did not have a vent. From what I can see the only vent in the whole house is the main stack (if that is the correct term) which snakes its way through the house to catch the second floor toilet. The sink upstairs is not vented either.

If I would use an AAV on the toilet under the box I will build around the cleanout for access, does that need to be 6 inches above the vanity also?

From what I gather my city I live in does not do plumbing inspections. (which is why I have a house with no vents)

massplumber2008 · Feb 22, 2008, 07:37 PM

Yes... the AAV should be at least six inches above the height of the rim of the lavatory. I am trying to send you an email with what you really should be doing.

NO Inspectors.. "which is why I have a house with no vents"... now is the time to fix that ;) Look for email (if you emailed as requested in my PM)... Thanks.

iamgrowler · Feb 22, 2008, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by massplumber2008

Yes...the AAV should be at least six inches above the height of the rim of the lavatory. I am trying to send you an email with what you really should be doing.

AAV's need only rise six inches above the inlet of the trap, Mass.

Of course you won't see this in your code book (because most of the prevailing codes still refuse to even acknowledge their existence).

OTOH, most municipalities accept them -- So long as they are installed per the manufacturers guidelines, which call for a minimum riser of six inches above the inlet of the trap.

scottinminnesota · Feb 22, 2008, 07:52 PM

So if I go six inches above the toilet trap with the AAV I am good?

scottinminnesota · Feb 22, 2008, 07:56 PM

If you look at my original drawing Mass, I am moving the toilet from the existing flange over adjacent to the cleanout. The existing flange, I will be removing and tying the 2" from the tub and laundry.

On your drawing it shows the toilet next to the bathtub, unless I am reading drawing wrong.

As my house is laid out right now, there is no way of getting a vent up to the roof. 2 stories above all finished with goofy roof lines from additions. I think I will be using AAV's

iamgrowler · Feb 22, 2008, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by scottinminnesota

so if i go six inches above the toilet trap with the AAV i am good?

Not on a fourteen foot trap-arm.

massplumber2008 · Feb 22, 2008, 07:59 PM

I know that Iam.. but I am unclear if he will even use them... for now... I will stick with 6 inches above flood level rim of the highest fixture in the bathroom... and see what he decides to go with.

I want to see a plumber doing the work... I want to see a permit pulled. For now... let's see what he is going to do... then we can all advise.

I swear, thanks for your input, and I still owe you some pics (I appreciate that posting help you and KISS mentioned at one of the last posts... I clearly need it!! Thank you)... working day and night lately (and posting in between! ).

I will let you know...

scottinminnesota · Feb 22, 2008, 08:12 PM

I will be using aav's because I don't have any way of getting up through 2 stories of finished living space for a vent to atmosphere.

scottinminnesota · Feb 22, 2008, 08:12 PM

What does growler mean by a 14 foot trap arm?

massplumber2008 · Feb 23, 2008, 06:20 AM

OK Scott... this should work better. See the pic.

Now, although hard, I am sure you can find a way to get 2" vents upstairs..I do not like doing it myself...but I always find a way (no choice..inspector coming in on all my jobs). You can run vents through closets..or bite the bullet, open wall at high point so can drill to next level (drill from underneath to go from main floor to basement) and fish your pipe up in sections (via couplings).

My attached picture shows how this job should be piped if individuallly venting fixtures (the way you have your picture drawn...you will not be chopping concrete acrosss floor (between toilet and lav.) so you will need to vent each fixture.

I have you sending a single 2" waste stack upstairs and a separate vent stack to accept vents from basement fixtures AND the vent for the washing machine vent upstairs.

All fittings underground should be (wyes) (wye-1/8 combination fittings) (45 degree fittings) and (long sweep 90s). You will need long sweep 90s at all penetrations through the concrete floor... then notice I have you installing dandy cleanouts at all verticals just out of the concrete floor... you will never regret it (these are code required except pn the vent from the tub... but put it there.. six inches above tub height so even if tub backed up to top... you can remove plug dandy plug and snake without even getting wet!! )

Washing machine needs a 30 " standpipe out of a 2" ptrap (as noted on drawing)

If you use AAVs, you should install them where accessible (as we already discussed)... but you need to get a 2" waste
Pipe upstairs for washing machine... why not run that parallel vent stack and know you will never have any problems with venting all those fixtures on left of bathroom.. Then maybe add the AAV over near the toilet (must connect the vent wye from underground within 8 to 10 feet of toilet elbow)... that will save some work. I just hate to see AAVs at all fixtures in this remodel... just MY OPINION!! Check local codes, too.

And if more questions, please ask away... we are glad to help... It's how some of us get our kicks... somehow??

scottinminnesota · Feb 23, 2008, 11:23 AM

I will be running the vent to a location where I will use an AAV for now, but in the future when we remodel our kitchen which is where the vent will run through behind where the cabinets are now we will continue the vent up at that time. I will run the vent from the toilet over to this AAV.

The vent for the toilet can be 2"? Do the vents need to be up at a 45 degree angle or can they be laid in flat?

Thanks for the help.

Scott

massplumber2008 · Feb 23, 2008, 01:38 PM

YUP... toilet vent needs to be run 2".

All vents pitch back toward the drain (see the drawing I did.. all vents drawn in as pitched).

That should do it the... Keep us posted.

If this helped, please RATE THIS ANSWER. Thank you

massplumber2008 · Feb 23, 2008, 04:50 PM

Hey Scott... I forgot to mention that when you install your fittings for the vent for the tub and the new toilet you MUST roll the wye fittings that will be the vents themselves ABOVE THE CENTERLINE of the drain lines... just above or higher. What is important here is that you do not just take a vent wye off a drain pipe at center line... will lose effectiveness of vent if rolled at centerline. OK... that's all for now. Keep me posted Scott. Thank you.

scottinminnesota · Feb 23, 2008, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by massplumber2008

Hey Scott...I forgot to mention that when you install your fittings for the vent for the tub and the new toilet you MUST roll the wye fittings that will be the vents themselves ABOVE THE CENTERLINE of the drain lines...just above or higher. What is important here is that you do not just take a vent wye off a drain pipe at center line...will lose effectiveness of vent if rolled at centerline. OK...that's all for now. Keep me posted Scott. Thank you.

That was what I was asking when I was asking about laying the vent flat. Thanks. I just didn't use the correct terminology. Also can 2 45's replace using one long sweep 90? Would there be a problem if I just capped the old 4" toilet line and ran the bathtub into the same line as the new toilet? Thanks!

massplumber2008 · Feb 24, 2008, 09:16 AM

Hi Scott.

Yes 2-45s can replace a long sweep... better yet... a 45 and a street 45 work well, too.

An example: When you run that long run of 3" pipe over to become the 3" vent stack your pipe will come out of the ground crooked if you don't use a 45and street 45 to work out the pitch in that long pipe. That make sense?

And... No PROBLEM running the tub into the new line for toilet... NOW LISTEN UP HERE... IF can install a wye rolled above centerline of new 4" toilet pipe within 8-10 feet of the toilet elbow... then can use the tub vent as a wetted vent for your toilet! That is code everywhere... that I know of. Does that make sense?

If over 8-10 feet, then do not do it.. and install the independent vents (aavs in your case :rolleyes: ) we have been discussing.

*If running 3" for toilet (this is allowed.. even with a tub on it) then keep fitting for tub (the wetted vent, now as well) within 6-8 feet of toilet elbow and that will work, too... no farther away! *

Each state has different DISTANCE TO TRAP REQUIREMENTS... FOR YOUR PURPOSES THESE NUMBERS SHOULD WORK GOOD.

Keep in touch