[workerbee]

I already read that CMM. I think that you know that prayer does not work, everyone does but they are afraid to admit it. Example: 1 out of 10 females survive brain cancer. If these females all prayer one will survive. People will say it is a miracle, she will go on T.V and so on but the other 9 you don't hear from because they are dead. People ignore that part.
The person that survives is because medical treatment nothing more. The belief God may help relieve stress or depression but that is all. I just saw a TV show on PBS only caught the last few minutes of it. It was on religion, there was a priest a few college professors, etc. Someone in the audience asked "Does prayer work" a professor answered much the same as I did where God helps with relieving of stress, depresion but NOT with the medical problem.Here is the amazing part, the priest nodded in agreement. He was agreeing that prayer only does that. The new study was made to overcome flaws in earlier studies that had vague results.

I think we need to believe there is no God so that we won't feel so small and insignificant.

Good point
workerbee

[kennith_morden]

THE TOP TEN PREDICTIONS FOR 2008
>
> 1. The Bible will still have all the answers.
> 2. Prayer will still work.
> 3. The Holy Spirit will still move.
> 4. God will still inhabit the praises of His people.
> 5. There will still be God-anointed preaching.
> 6. There will still be singing of praise to God.
> 7. God will still pour out blessings upon His people.
> 8. There will still be room at the Cross.
> 9. Jesus will still love you.
> 10. Jesus will still save the lost.
>
> God whispers in your soul and speaks to your mind. Sometimes when you
> don't have time to listen, He has to throw a brick at you.
>

[inthebox]

It is the American heart journal april 2006 was published and how people practice religion is hardly the point. Cho's question is what is God? my answer is that God is made up like the thousands of pagan gods before. jesus is a great example. He never preformed miracles of any kind. As i wrote in another thread there are several virgin births recorded and these people went on to raise the dead, turn water into wine, all before Jesus, but the were mortals just like Jesus. They are myths nothing more. We need to make up a God so we won't feel so small and insignificant. There is lots of evidence to support what i say

workerbee

http://cbfinch.googlepages.com/PrayerStudy.pdf

regarding the JAMA article P 941

"our findings are not consistent with prior studies SHOWING THAT INTERCESSORY PRAYERS HAD A BENEFICIAL EFFECT ON THE OUTCOMES IN CARDIAC PATIENTS."

They referenced those studies if you want to quote them.


Scientifically speaking the study you mention is clearly not settled science.
It only applies to this specific situation, this particular trial. How about for depression or pregnancy or pneumonia? So stating that prayer does not help, as a blanket statement is a false statement.

HOw about a study with those who were religious. Divide that group into those allowed to pray and those not allowed to pray. This, of course would not be posible because that would not be right.

Another problem with the study you mentioned is that they did not control for those who prayed for themselves - see the table on patient characteristics.
Theologically speaking, a direct prayer would probably be more effective than an intercessory one.

Also no one would think that prayer would replace a bypass, it is meant as a complimentary treatment.



As to the OP's question

Science is the testing of observed phenomenon. It is impartial.
Science does not explain why we are here, what our purpose or meaning is.

To the religious, God does, God is so much more than just science.

One can appreciate DNA - its complexity, its ability to hold information. That is fact.
There is no scientific evidence how this originated by random chance. Evolutionists may theorize or hypothesize, those who believe say its from God. Same fact different points of view.

[workerbee]

That's the point is it not. Prayer should work to replace a bypass but does not. Or sure it will help people who believe that God exists with depression and there emotinal outlook but not with the actual problem Let me give another example of how worthless prayer is. Mother Terasa, died frustrated. Know why because God was silent when she prayed. He did not answer her. This was mentioned in her letters. No one was hepled that she prayed for. She was writing these letters to her priest friend for 50 years. What happens is that some people (Christians)get into a make believe worldscared to death of admitting what I know. Never underestimate the power of Denial.
Kinnith, I don't mean to insult you but you sound like a child. You believe in your delusion, does not matter to me

workerbee

[inthebox]

You mis represent.

"prayer should work to replace bypass but does not"


Exactly who made that claim?


Now you admit that faith helps depression, so

Depression as a predictor for coronary heart disea...[Am J Prev Med. 2002] - PubMed Result

Spiritual Well-Being and Depression in Patients with Heart Failure

But even this article in the discussion

"A related concern is that psychological well-being and spiritual well-being are overlapping constructs."

This issues shows that, contrary to what you might claim, science and religion may indeed come together.



As to those that have questions or doubts about their faith, who does not, especially during hard times. Faith does not mean life is going to be easy.
We are taught to seek wisdom, and through trials faith deepens and matures [ Jamees 1 ], or it does not.

Now if Mother Theresa was an evolutionists, would she even question why there is suffering? Would she even try to help - what natural selective advantage is it to her to help the poor?

And yes prayers help but "faith without action is dead" - so she did help those who were suffering.


Is it not the claim by SOME atheists that religious folks are not as smart, don't question, and blindly accept what is taught religious texts?

So lo and behold a person of faith has some doubts and questions.

You have to wonder about someone who DOES NOT ask questions about what they believe.

[NeedKarma]

Where is the OP to keep this back on track i.e. Science and Astronomy?

[workerbee]

First off, iagree with NeedKarma, we should not get into this here. I only wanted to answer Cho's question. I just skimmed the links but they seem to say what I say about well being
So what? Here is what I think prayer should do. In the new testament jesus broke laws of nature by raising the dead, and walking on water(which he did not do) people that were blind could see immediately, so I think my view of prayer is correct. You say faith without action is dead. I think you just need action, forget the faith, prayer , they are both
Worthless. I also notice how many Christians alter their views on praying. Now it seems if you have a problem pray to feel better about the problem you have and that's it the problem still stays. I don't understand that thinking. If you want ot continue this you can PM me

workerbee

[inthebox]

workerbee:

The op mentions God and science. So this is on track.

Is it really legitimate for a stated non-beliver, to make comments on what prayer or faith or action / works play in the role of Christianity?
That is disingenuous.

Christian theology is difficult at times. Study the book of Romans if you must start somewhere. CS Lewis' "Mere Christianity" is another good place to start or Oswald Chambers' daily devotionals is another. Oswald Chambers: My Utmost for His Highest

Also, as I have stated, there is no conflict between God and science, the extremists on both sides would like people to think there is.


Yours truly is a Christian and a health professional. Both God and science are involved in my work.

[Cho]

This discussion is running of the track.I just wanted to know God scientifically.This discussion finally ended in "Does prayer works or not".I do believe prayer works.What matters is what you are praying 4 & 2 whom you are praying.4 me prayer always worked.Besides everybody seems to be a christian & no 1's thinking beyond that.Jesus is not the only God.He is not the only 1 u can pray 2.

Anyway this was not my topic.I just want 2 know the scientific explanations of God.Or will science ever be able 2 explain God?

[Birabhadra Mahakud]

Physics is just a part of the Metaphysics.Physics cannot describe the whole of metaphysics. By examining Special Theory of relativity one comes to know that infinte energy is required to stop time and exit from this physical world while still existing in its own frame. Furher no maths or physics can describe it--This is the limit of Logic. In the beginning of the universe too, space and time were zero and infinite. My calculations on the relativistic schwarzschild metric shows that it was also like the case mentioned above. I am Damn sure that the BigBang required infinte amount of energy, which is beyond the human capability and reasoning. INFINITY is the only attribute of GOD.

[Capuchin]

Physics is just a part of the Metaphysics.Physics cannot describe the whole of metaphysics. By examining Special Theory of relativity one comes to know that infinte energy is required to stop time and exit from this physical world while still existing in its own frame. Furher no maths or physics can describe it--This is the limit of Logic. In the beginning of the universe too, space and time were zero and infinite. My calculations on the relativistic schwarzschild metric shows that it was also like the case mentioned above. I am Damn sure that the BigBang required infinte amount of energy, which is beyond the human capability and reasoning. INFINITY is the only attribute of GOD.

Where did this infinite energy all go?

[workerbee]

Inthebox, just so you know I was a Christain for many years which is the reason I am not now.

Cho, I answered your question by explaining that there is no God, except the ones we make. For you to say there are many Gods, well that goes against Christianity. Your view on praying is 100% wrong read the study even people who knew they were being prayed for showed NO results, in fact some were worse, leading the researchers to believe performance anixety. In other words you knew you were prayed for, so how come you are not better? Cho, if you believe something that is baseless then you have nothing.
We learn from our research otherwise we would still live in caves. The evidence suggests there is no God, Jesus was just a man.

What happens without evidence, let me tell you. Some believe that God was an alien
Of a starship and created us. I might add there is NO evidence for them to make this claim
But is does sound plausible, so what? Does not make it true. Don't ignore the research

Birabhadra Mahakud, we just don't know enough to make a statement either way.

workerbee

[CMM_Kaleido]

Workerbee:
People who believe there is a God, whether they are Christian or not are discussing the possibilities of what God is. (You can believe in one God, even the same God, without being Christian. Cho said nothing about many gods he just said he didn't pray to Jesus.)

Why does this discussion seem to bother you so much? I would not presume to tell you how to be an atheist.

Furher no maths or physics can describe it--This is the limit of Logic. In the beginning of the universe too, space and time were zero and infinite. My calculations on the relativistic schwarzschild metric shows that it was also like the case mentioned above. I am Damn sure that the BigBang required infinte amount of energy, which is beyond the human capability and reasoning. INFINITY is the only attribute of GOD.

Mostly over my head but really fascinating. Possibly, at a level in that infinity is there a place where infinite energy and complete understanding (all knowledge, the pattern of absolute perfection) become one? Could that be God (or a heaven of sorts?)

[kennith_morden]

All I can say is will pray to god and I will go see all of the ones that went before me.
Every one has a opinoin to me my opinion is the right one.
I pray to my god which in my eyes is the only god.

[workerbee]

CMM_Kaliedo, honestly it does not bother me and I am not telling anyone what to believe
I just tried to answer a question. Whenever religion comes into a question things just explode soimetimes getting off topic. Now you know why some forums never talk about god

workerbee

[Cho]

Cho, i answered your question by explaining that there is no God, except the ones we make. For you to say there are many Gods, well that goes against Christianity. Your view on praying is 100% wrong read the study even people who knew they were being prayed for showed NO results, in fact some were worse, leading the researchers to believe performance anixety. In other words you knew you were prayed for, so how come you are not better? Cho, if you believe something that is baseless then you have nothing.
We learn from our research otherwise we would still live in caves. the evidence suggests there is no God, Jesus was just a man.

What happens without evidence, let me tell you. Some believe that God was an alien
of a starship and created us. I might add there is NO evidence for them to make this claim
but is does sound plausible, so what? does not make it true. Don't ignore the research



How can u say there is no God.Then where did this concept of God come from? I do believe Jesus was a man.A man who came to lead us to God but failed.
Science is very young.It is unable to explain everything happening in our very earh.For example let me quote Nobel laureate Carlo Rubbia-"The identity of 95% of what constitues the universe is not known and experiments are being conducted"If this is the case how can u site scientific evidences.Know what Einstein used to say, he felt like a child playing at the sea shore when the ocean of knowledge stretched before him.

[NeedKarma]

How can u say there is no God.

He answered your question properly in the Science/Astronomy view. Feel free to repost your question in Religion for the answers you seek.

[Cho]

He answered your question properly in the Science/Astronomy view. Feel free to repost your question in Religion for the answers you seek.

I do need an answer related to science

[inthebox]

He answered your question properly in the Science/Astronomy view. Feel free to repost your question in Religion for the answers you seek.

In order for science to say "there is no God" is to assume that science knows everything at his point.

That is false. For example science cannot explain the "big Bang" or the sudden, geologically speaking, appearance of hundreds of species during the Cambrian, or the origins of DNA.


Science is not omniscient, neither is mankind.

[NeedKarma]

There you go, question answered. :)