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Posi Temp in NH · Jan 9, 2008, 04:44 PM

Our furnace 'seems' to be working fine regarding heating the home, but our upstairs shower over the past month or two often only has lukewarm hot water. It DOES seem like it's on colder days so perhaps it's working hard heating the 5 zones of the house. I've moved the thermostat schedules earlier in the AM so the heating wouldn't conflict but it is still occurring.

Some of those instances the downstairs kitchen sink & shower were plenty hot, others they were lukewarm as well. The Posi-Temp has not been adjusted (or cleaned) in 6 years since we moved in.

Reading other Q&A's on similar Moen's, it appears not to be a cartridge problem as there isn't a leak. The Posi-Temp hasn't been adjusted so that shouldn't be the case.

So I've narrowed it to these:

1. The coil has AGAIN become encrusted with Manganese. We've acid flushed it 18 months ago as it barely allowed ANY flow of water through coil. A 1 micron filter was installed but some managanese still exists as every few months it keeps clogging shower and drain screens. Plumber at the time advised the acid would 'pit' the coil and the situation WOULD return but had no idea of time frame.
2. Posi-Temp cartridge/scald setting ARE contributing to the situation.
3. Copper pipes to upstairs are either narrowed due to years of manganese build-up or pipes are partially obstructed by an object.
4. Furnace simply cannot keep up with heating duties AND shower flow (but why only / most often) to upstairs bathroom?

Plumbing service call rates in NH are OUTRAGEOUS (including the travel time they charge, it's about $300 to JUST SHOW UP) so I'd like to identify/narrow the possibilities before I call them again.

I'm leaning towards the coil (#1) and preparing to replace it. Before, I'm planning to put a bucket under the drain valve, open it full blast and see the outflow. When the coil was acid flushed before, they could BARELY get a sputter of acid through.

Can I hurt anything by doing this?? :confused:

Thank you!

ballengerb1 · Jan 9, 2008, 07:23 PM

Is this a combi boiler or a hot air furnace you refer to at the beginning of your post? "not to be a cartridge problem as there isn't a leak" Moen cartridges can collect crud in the valve body and still not leak. I think I'd start by removing the valve and inspect the port for junk. Write if you aren't sure about how to remove the cartridge.

Posi Temp in NH · Jan 9, 2008, 07:31 PM

Not sure about 'combi' terminology but I'm guessing it is what we have. It is an oil burning, furnace that heats and circulates hot water through 4 to 5 heating zones via radiators.

It also heats our hot water without a hot water storage tank.

I'm thinking there is a GREAT chance it is loaded with 'manganese crud'. I can't figure out how to remove the shower handle to 'get at' whatevers underneath.

Also, to open it up (and what, clean it?) do I need to locate a replacement? If so, how do I find a model # and where can I buy? Or are they easily cleaned once removed?

Thanks!

ballengerb1 · Jan 9, 2008, 07:43 PM

Moen is pretty easy to work on. The handle is usually held on by a screw or allen screw hidden on the bottom edge of the handle. If you don't see a screw look for a small plastic plug or cap. Be sure your main is off and a faucet has been opened to blow pressure. Once the handle is off you can remove the escutcheon plate by removing the two screws. The cartridge is held in place by a clip which is pryed out from the valve body. Older Moens may have a plate with 3 screws around the cartridge. Pull the cartridge straight out remembering which side is the top, you don't want to reinstall upside down. With the cartridge in your hand you can see the two ports that allow water to enter and mix, clean them of any debris. While the cartridge is out put a towel over the hole and have someone turn the main on and off to clean out any debris in the line. Reinstall in reverse order remembering which side is up. If the black plastic seals are a mess on the cartridge just take the whole thing to the home center. The good news is Moen only uses a few cartridges.

Posi Temp in NH · Jan 9, 2008, 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by ballengerb1

Moen is pretty easy to work on. The handle is usually held on by a screw or allen screw hidden on the bottom edge of the handle. If you don't see a screw look for a small plastic plug or cap. Be sure your main is off and a faucet has been opened to blow pressure. Once the handle is off you can remove the escutcheon plate by removing the two screws. The cartridge is held in place by a clip which is pryed out from the valve body. Older Moens may have a plate with 3 screws around the cartridge. Pull the cartridge straight out remembering which side is the top, you don't want to reinstall upside down. With the cartridge in your hand you can see the two ports that allow water to enter and mix, clean them of any debris. While the cartridge is out put a towel over the hole and have someone turn the main on and off to clean out any debris in the line. reinstall in reverse order remembering which side is up. If the black plastic seals are a mess on the cartridge just take the whole thing to the home center. The good news is Moen only uses a few cartridges.

I've got this taken apart up to the above color section. I can't tell WHAT to pull/pry/unscrew to gain access to a cartridge. I don't even see WHERE the cartridge is.

All I see is the 'stem' stcking out of a circular opening, partially blocked by a rectangular section of 'metal' that must either BE the cartridge or is HOLDING the cartridge in place.

Thoughts?

ballengerb1 · Jan 9, 2008, 08:06 PM

OK I am going with instructions for a clip held cartridge. Get your eye level with the round shaft coming straight out of the valve. The body is brass colored and a bit further back inside,inspect the edge of that valve it should be perefctly round but then you see a chrome clip sticking outside the brass body, useually around 3 o"clock, do you see it?

Posi Temp in NH · Jan 9, 2008, 08:24 PM

I found and removed a U shaped clip. It was stright up & down so it slid straight UP.

I now have a solid, rectangle of brittle rubber (or similar material) inside a round brass tube with the round shaft coming straight out.

I'm gently trying to pry eiither the full piece out (or is there another clip?). I'm also trying channel locks (top & bottom) or needle nose pliers. That rubber has 'chipped' 2 small pieces off but has not moved.

Any suggestions?? Thanks!

I found this online: http://www.needplumbingsupplies.com/...cs/ins746e.pdf

In diagram #9, I'm trying to pull the whole thing out by the brass tube but it won't budge. Figure #9 seems to say to NOT pull straight back via the tube but rather do so from the side. As it says "No" I'm afraid to try this but I think it might be the only way to budge it. The brass tubs is what I PULL WITH? And how strong is it?

Thanks!

ballengerb1 · Jan 10, 2008, 08:42 AM

Should be only one clip so I think you are on the right track. The link yougave me is not opening at the moment but I will keep trying. That round shaft coming straight out is what the handle gets mounted on, try remounting the handle a give the cartridge a twisting back and forth as you pull toward yourself. I will keep working on the link and get back to you. That black rectangle is just a plastic block that adapts the chrome handle to the stem. There may also be some white gearlike rings that are part of the posi temp mechanism. Keep their positioning in your memory. Also the cartridge has a rectangle block at the base of the stem the reads " HC" at the top, HC must be at the top when you reinstall or your hot/cold will be reversed. Moen has a help line at 1-88-289-6636 you might call them but they like to get a model number.

Posi Temp in NH · Jan 10, 2008, 12:21 PM

:mad:

Got SO close last night but had to give up & reassemble so it was operational this morning.

Went online and called Moen today. They advised I spray with White Vinegar to loosen the mineral deposits holding it. If that didn't work they recommended either the $12.05 'Repair Kit' wich has a plastic tool (?) or a $21 metal tool that apparently WILL get it out no matter what.

The guy seemed to think the White Vinegar would work. He also emailed me instructions on how to 'clean' the cartridge.

Any guidance on how to set the Posi temp aftterwards to INCREASE it's hot setting should that be necessary? I saw the white meshed gears, and reinstalled them so they were BOTH straight up which I THINK does NOT limit the hot at all. The handle thus rotates 270 degrees (from 6 o'clock counterclockwise all the way to 9 o'clock).

When I created a 90 degree angle between the gears, it rotated LESS (say 11 or 12 o'clock) so I'm thinking that is preventing the full on HOT setting which is not what we need. Is this correct?

ballengerb1 · Jan 10, 2008, 12:43 PM

Most Moens will rotate 360 all day long without the one gears installed. The rectangular bump of the gear should be at 90 degrees compared to the flat spot on the knob shaft. If you want more hot water make them more like 100 degrees or so, keep expertimenting to get what you want, 120 should be about perfect. Did you give the cartridge a twist as you tried to pull it out? You will need some level of repair kit since replacing the O rings and seals is important to use OEM parts. The tools they refer to are pullers but I have never needed one, yet.

Posi Temp in NH · Jan 10, 2008, 01:04 PM

So I can't just clean & reinstall?? I have NOT bought (or located a place to buy) the repair kit because it does not leak at all.

I just thought I'd clean the maganese & crud out and then slide it back in? Yes, I twisted and pried with screwdrivers and pliers for an hour to no avail.

Are you thinking the O-rings will get damaged on removal and reinstallation? Also, what is the need for the lubricant?

Our shower handle has only rotated 270 degrees all along. We thought that WAS full range!

ballengerb1 · Jan 10, 2008, 02:07 PM

If the white gears are removed the handle can just keep turning and turning. Yes, I was thinking that removal may damage the rings but I usually replace them once the cartridge is out because it is so cheap and easy to do once removed. The repair kit includes a small plastic tube of lube. Most hardware and home center will have lits for Moen and a great many cartridges are the same, they don't make a different cartridge for each faucet.

Posi Temp in NH · Jan 10, 2008, 05:48 PM

Uh oh.

I bought the repair kit and tried the vinegar.

As I pulled on the shaft the stem just came right off leaving just the rubber end piece STILL IN THE HOLE.

Now I'm afraid I'm really screwed. Any thoughts?

iamgrowler · Jan 10, 2008, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by Posi Temp in NH

Uh oh.

I bought the repair kit and tried the vinegar.

As I pulled on the shaft the stem just came right off leaving just the rubber end piece STILL IN THE HOLE.

Now I'm afraid I'm really screwed. Any thoughts?

You're not totally screwed -- An automotive pick set will contain the proper pick for removing the portion of the cartridge that broke off in the bore of the valve.

While your out buying an automotive pick set, buy a 3/4" fitting brush and clean out the bore of the valve (once you've cleaned out the broken portion of the cartridge, of course).

Then lubricate the new cartridge you (hopefully) bought with plumbers grease and install.

Posi Temp in NH · Jan 10, 2008, 07:40 PM

:confused:

I just went and bought a new cartridge and a narrow set of vice grips. The vinegar seems to have had not effect as I can't budge it with the vice grips not the flimsy 10 cent little piece Moen provides to 'turn' & loosen the cartridge.

What is/are 'automotive picks'? Where can I buy it? Them? And how would they GRAB' what remains in the hole? It seems defiantly set in place.

I'm glad you have an idea you seem confident in. At least I'll be able to sleep tonight THINKING there might be a way short of hiring a plumber and cutting through a wall to fully access these pipes.

Our family NEEDS to get this shower fixed as it's the only one everyone uses each morning.:eek:

ballengerb1 · Jan 10, 2008, 08:29 PM

Keep working at it, an on-site plumber would be trying all the same steps we have suggested. Automotive picks look a bit like those dental instruments that you don't like in your mouth, sharp little hooky things.

ballengerb1 · Jan 10, 2008, 08:33 PM

Posi, didn't you send me a Moen diagram earlier today, refer to it. Is the rubber part that stuckin the valve pictured in diagram 9h and 9I? Small black flap with a round hole.

Posi Temp in NH · Jan 10, 2008, 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by ballengerb1

Posi, didn't you send me a Moen diagram earlier today, refer to it. Is the rubber part that stuckin the valve pictured in diagram 9h and 9I ?? Small black flap with a round hole.

It is NOT the pieces you're describing. It is the flat WHITE piece marked HC.

The WHOLE cartridge, without the brass stem, remains lodged in the pipe. I've removed the U-shaped clip but the cartridge has not moved at all.

What type picks would you recommend (but at Sears?) and how would you use them? Just pry them into the edge and try to hook/pull the cartridge 1/16th inch at a time?

ballengerb1 · Jan 10, 2008, 09:24 PM

OH crap, just the stem came out of the cartridge. If the rectangular plate with HC on it is still in place then the whole thing is still in there. Forget the picks. Growler think its time for dynamite yet? Posi , I am sorry but I need to stop at this point. Maybe growler or speedball can finish but I have never had a stem pull out of a cartridge before. That little guy is really stuck apparently and I'm not sure Moen's help line would be much help either but I'd call them back. If there is a way Moen should know it but so would Tom or growler.