[SkyGem]

Perhaps you did not read my post carefully, but I was responding to two different points that you raised - I note however that you did not address the scripture that I posted for some reason. Keep in mind that the Holy Spirit does not contradict himself, so you cannot ignore one part of scripture that you don't happen to like.

I read the post for your information. The Scripture that you cited I also addressed in the body of my message, in effect, calling it a contradiction to what JESUS says in JOHN 14:12 (KJV). Go back and re-read it. Also, The Holy Spirit is not speaking in the verse you quoted. Let me make it simpler for you, this time around, by going back and using the Chapter that you cited from and going to the Bottom Line of that Chapter for the answer.

DEUTERONOMY 18:22 (KJV) says the following: "When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." This Scripture is the Bottom Line of the Chapter which you originally quoted from and it quite plainly states that if something one of those who are named in your passage (since all can say they speak from God) speaks in God's Name and what they say does not happen, then simply Do Not Be Afraid Of Him. That is all it says and one cannot read any more into it. Read it for yourself as it is part of your Chapter. I felt you would understand the way I answered but unfortunately you did not.

The Holy Spirit indeed makes no contradictions, however, man when trying to interpret things that suits his conveniences, may very well. Therein lies the problem.


Actually, the purpose of the gifts was explained by Jesus:

Acts 1:8
8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."
NKJV

It is to be witnesses of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Therefore any spirit which causes you to have "power" which does not move you in concert with the gospel fo Christ as given in scripture is not from God.

And what part of my reply did you not further understand? Was it the part where I said, "Inappropriate conjuration or contact as with Black Magic, Voodoo, etc. is clearly wrong and that is what Scripture is speaking to."?


Jesus is God. Praying to God is a form of worship. That is not the same as praying to dead saints.

Certainly Jesus is God and I have said that when I said "The fact that Jesus now lives in Spirit as does God, clearly demonstrates that since we communicate with Him (Jesus and God, One and the Same) ... ". Praying to God IS a form of worship. I certainly have no problem with that at all. Praying to "dead" saints is something I know is wrong as we should not ever pray to saints, living or dead, period. Yes, there are some religions that have "living" saints, believe it or not. We pray only to God (One in the Holy Trinity).

Scripture makes no such differentiation.

You quote me as saying: "We must understand that there are also evil forces that may indeed use conjuration for purposes other than actually helping oneself or another in an appropriate manner."

Your reply is: "Scripture makes no such differentiation." Of course it does. Read the following Scriptures. "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist" -- 1 JOHN 4:1-3 (KJV). Also, Scripture further differentiates between good and evil forces by saying "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of Light." -- 2 CORINTHIANS 11:14 (KJV).

That is, in essence, what I am saying about using God's power as given to us by Jesus Christ only for Good purposes. I note that you did not reply to my reference to JOHN 14:12 (KJV). Jesus gives us the Power to do what He did and does, which includes speaking with the deceased as He did that also. That Scripture is Jesus, Himself speaking, which contradicts the verse you cited that apparently forbids it. I thought my statement had made that clear to you.

[Tj3]

[B]You quote me as saying: "We must understand that there are also evil forces that may indeed use conjuration for purposes other than actually helping oneself or another in an appropriate manner."

Your reply is: "Scripture makes no such differentiation." Of course it does. Read the following Scriptures. "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist" -- 1 JOHN 4:1-3 (KJV). Also, Scripture further differentiates between good and evil forces by saying "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of Light." -- 2 CORINTHIANS 11:14 (KJV).

But not within the context of what we are discussing which is communication with the dead. Absolutely nowhere is any differentiation made regarding communicating with one type of spirit versus another. It is a flat out prohibition. Also, scripture in context is clear that the war between good and evil spirits is between the holy and fallen angels - these versus are not speaking about the spirits of the dead.

That is, in essence, what I am saying about using God's power as given to us by Jesus Christ only for Good purposes. I note that you did not reply to my reference to JOHN 14:12 (KJV). Jesus gives us the Power to do what He did and does, which includes speaking with the deceased as He did that also. That Scripture is Jesus, Himself speaking, which contradicts the verse you cited that apparently forbids it. I thought my statement had made that clear to you.

I addressed that as part of the overall statement. Aas for you calling it a contradiction, I cannot imagine how you could read it on context and come to that conclusion or even conclude that it had anything to do with the topic at hand. First, Jesus in the flesh as man never spoke to the dead. If you disagree, find me any such context. He communication with those previously deceased is only as God.

John 14:12 speaks about the works that Jesus did while on earth as a man, and was speaking to men. Further, as shown previously, we are told specifically was the empowerment of the Holy Spirit is for. Let me repeat:

----------
Acts 1:8
8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."
NKJV

It is to be witnesses of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Therefore any spirit which causes you to have "power" which does not move you in concert with the gospel of Christ as given in scripture is not from God.
----------

If you believe that John 14:12 has anything to do with communication with the dead then show us that in context.

[SkyGem]

But not within the context of what we are discussing which is communication with the dead. Absolutely nowhere is any differentiation made regarding communicating with one type of spirit versus another. It is a flat out prohibition. Also, scripture in context is clear that the war between good and evil spirits is between the holy and fallen angels - these versus are not speaking about the spirits of the dead.

That is not correct. What we are discussing is communication with spirit in general. Since there is no "death", except in the sense that the physical body loses its abililty to remain animated, we thus move to the spirit that one transforms to after physical passing. What you are interpreting as a "prohibition" has to be allowed under JOHN 14:12 (KJV) because Jesus did it. As to holy and fallen angels, they are both spirits but spirits live in Heaven, the Afterlife, the Hereafter or the spirit world where there are different levels, one is commonly called "Hell" for the fallen angels. There is communication with those in spirit (except for those in "Hell" but for those who may do Black Magic, etc. who knows who they may communicate with? That is what is not allowed by God.) But there is communication with good and benevolent spirits and even science has discovered that fact. The Virgin Mary, for example, has appeared (in Spirit) to mankind in Egypt and other places and has even been photographed. It showed her as a white spiritual outline on top of a Coptic Church in Cairo, Egypt. The photograph, it is said, was authenticated by the Catholic Church. She has appeared there as well as many other places. She comes to communicate with us and we speak to her (a Spirit). She also appeared to the children of Portugal as many Christians across the world should know.

I addressed that as part of the overall statement. Aas for you calling it a contradiction, I cannot imagine how you could read it on context and come to that conclusion or even conclude that it had anything to do with the topic at hand. First, Jesus in the flesh as man never spoke to the dead.

But of course He did. He was in the flesh when He raised Lazarus and others, according to Biblical teachings and I have already spoken to that in my past response. But here is Scripture to back me up. Jesus was talking to His disciples, while very much in the flesh. "These things said He: and after that He saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said His disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead." -- JOHN 11:11-14 (KJV). What we have here, most plainly, is Jesus speaking to His disciples about Lazarus while Jesus is still in the flesh. But after Jesus learns that Lazarus has died, He says the following (while STILL very much in the flesh).

"And when He thus had spoken, He cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth." -- JOHN 11:43 (KJV). There Jesus is speaking very much in the flesh. What would make you think He was not in the flesh when He did this? All know and understand that He spoke these things and did these things (recalling Lazarus' spirit back to his body) while still in the flesh. However, I believe you have very different opinions about what the Bible is actually saying and want to say them to try to save your arguments. However, this is what Scripture says and I shall just have to keep repeating these things as long as you wish to discuss this matter as nothing can change.

If you disagree, find me any such context. He communication with those previously deceased is only as God.

Incorrect Again. Read the passage just above in reference to Lazarus and for the umpteenth time, KNOW and UNDERSTAND that Jesus was ALIVE (though He still is) but He was incarnate when He spoke and did these things. I will repeat this time and again from now on, I have no problem with that except that it is basically repetition and bandwidth is taken in the process.

John 14:12 speaks about the works that Jesus did while on earth as a man, and was speaking to men.

And the works that Jesus did while on Earth as a man and speaking to men was what He said we could also do as He was going to The Father (in JOHN 14:12 (KJV)). He spoke to Lazarus' spirit to raise Him from the dead and He also spoke at a distance to the spirit of the son of a commander of soldiers whose son was dying and he was made well. This was done not after Jesus' crucifixion but when He was very much incarnate. Why you do not seem to understand that I do not know.

Further, as shown previously, we are told specifically was the empowerment of the Holy Spirit is for. Let me repeat:

----------
Acts 1:8
8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."
NKJV

It is to be witnesses of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Therefore any spirit which causes you to have "power" which does not move you in concert with the gospel of Christ as given in scripture is not from God.

As I have said before, I have no problem with that as there are good spirits and bad ones that can influence one's way of thinking and one must know, unequivocally, where those spirits are coming from in order to differentiate between the two and be empowered by God.
----------

If you believe that John 14:12 has anything to do with communication with the dead then show us that in context.

I simply cannot believe that you would keep asking this question. But here we go again (yes, with some people we must be patient until they understand). Jesus, while in the flesh, raised Lazarus from the dead. He spoke to His spirit in order for his spirit to return to his body. It did and Lazarus woke up and was alive in physical body again. This is a miracle from Jesus that He said we too could do as He was going to The Father. He said this in JOHN 14:12 (KJV). Shall I repeat this one more time for you? I would be glad to!

[Tj3]

I simply cannot believe that you would keep asking this question. But here we go again (yes, with some people we must be patient until they understand). Jesus, while in the flesh, raised Lazarus from the dead. He spoke to His spirit in order for his spirit to return to his body. It did and Lazarus woke up and was alive in physical body again. This is a miracle from Jesus that He said we too could do as He was going to The Father. He said this in JOHN 14:12 (KJV). Shall I repeat this one more time for you? I would be glad to!

First - a suggestion - it would help to keep the discussion more physically concise if you just quoted the specific context that you are responding to rather than a long two sided discussion.

You are making assumptions regarding Lazarus - let's look at the passage in context:

John 11:42-44
42 And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me." 43 Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come forth!" 44 And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, "Loose him, and let him go."
NKJV

Jesus performed a miracle and raised him from the dead. You appear to make the following assumptions:

- That God did not raise him from the dead, but he chose to come forward and re-enter his body on his own.

- That it is even possible for a person who has been dead for days to come back into their own body on their own doing.

Your apparent assumptions are contrary to scripture which says that Jesus (in the flesh) asked God the Father to raise Lazarus, and God the Father did so. This has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus in the flesh speaking to the dead. So please, if you are going to make this claim, please come forward with some in context validation of this claim - don't just keep repeating it.

That being said, your constant use of John 14:12 also does not stand as having anything to do with communication with the dead.

[Galveston1]

I have to go back to the clearest Bible record of communicating with the dead where King Saul attempted to talk to the prophet Samuel. That could not be called prayer, and a strong case can be made that he did not talk to Samuel, but to a spirit impersonating Samuel. Now, the Scriptures are not self-contridictary. What is flatly forbidden in one passage cannot be permitted in another. Your use of the reference to gifts of the Spirit to support the idea of communicating with the dead is is incorrect. Of course, I accept the Bible as our rule of faith and conduct without any other input, a view that not everyone shares.

[SkyGem]

First - a suggestion - it would help to keep the discussion more physically concise if you just quoted the specific context that you are responding to rather than a long two sided discussion.

First of all, I have to make a point-by-point reply since much of what you say that I said is inaccurate and must be corrected. Secondly, I must make mention of the fact that the original topic I had posted had to do with Electronic Voice Phenomena commonly known as EVP. A link was provided saying the Vatican approves of such spiritual communication. I realize that it is hard for some to swallow that the Vatican (head of the Roman Catholic Church) would approve of such communications but it is clearly in the report on the site. What I would strongly suggest, since apparently you do not believe this could happen, is that you contact the Vatican official listed and inquire about the validity of the article and we can then continue discussions on the original topic.

You are making assumptions regarding Lazarus - let's look at the passage in context:

John 11:42-44
42 And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me." 43 Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come forth!" 44 And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, "Loose him, and let him go."
NKJV

Jesus performed a miracle and raised him from the dead. You appear to make the following assumptions:

- That God did not raise him from the dead, but he chose to come forward and re-enter his body on his own.

When did I say that, I would like to know? For the record, I never would have said that as that would have been grossly incorrect. I said JESUS raised him from the dead. But are we not in agreement that Jesus and God are One and the same? I thought we were or are you just trying to obfuscate the issue here.

- That it is even possible for a person who has been dead for days to come back into their own body on their own doing.

Wrong. That is not a correct assumption and I must correct you on that. It would have not been possible for Lazarus or any other person who had already passed on to spirit to return to their own body aside from Jesus recalling their soul and spirit so they could continue to live in physical body. I have been consistent on that Biblical stance.

Your apparent assumptions are contrary to scripture which says that Jesus (in the flesh) asked God the Father to raise Lazarus, and God the Father did so. This has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus in the flesh speaking to the dead. So please, if you are going to make this claim, please come forward with some in context validation of this claim - don't just keep repeating it.

It bears repeating because again you are trying to obfuscate the issue here. When Jesus spoke the words "Lazarus come forth!" He did so with the authority given to Him by God The Father. Remember, God said that ALL things are done through His Son Jesus. And Jesus has said "I and my Father Are One." You can find this Scripture in JOHN 10:30 (KJV). So, quite obviously, if Jesus and The Father are One, Jesus has raised Lazarus from the dead. End of story.

That being said, your constant use of John 14:12 also does not stand as having anything to do with communication with the dead.

I believe it is very germane to the subject matter inasmuch as other Scripture cannot supersede what Jesus Himself has told us we can do in JOHN 14:12 (KJV). You simply prefer to believe other passages that were written and re-interpreted thousands of times throughout history rather than Jesus' Historical Words that give us Clear Authority to do that which He did and more, including the gift of knowing beforehand what is going to happen such as when He clearly demonstrated that Peter was going to deny Him three times before the cock crowed (See MATTHEW 26:34 (KJV). He told us we can do that also. Why is it so difficult to embrace that we can also know things that are going to happen beforehand, among many other things, especially when Jesus Son of God tells us that we can? If you care not to embrace that authority then be it far from me to change your mind as you have free will choice. But I will continue to stand by my position.

[SkyGem]

I have to go back to the clearest Bible record of communicating with the dead where King Saul attempted to talk to the prophet Samuel. That could not be called prayer, and a strong case can be made that he did not talk to Samuel, but to a spirit impersonating Samuel. Now, the Scriptures are not self-contridictary. What is flatly forbidden in one passage cannot be permitted in another. Your use of the reference to gifts of the Spirit to support the idea of communicating with the dead is is incorrect. Of course, I accept the Bible as our rule of faith and conduct without any other input, a view that not everyone shares.

Greetings, Gal, I will assume that you are addressing this post to me as we have posted back and forth before on this same matter. I notice you have also not addressed the "Catholic Position on EVP" that the Vatican o.ks which entails communication with those who have passed on as exemplified in my original posting. If you have reservations about this, I would suggest you also take it up with the Vatican and ask the Pope's representatives why he would allow it since you feel Scripture forbids it.

Since you obviously did not read my previous post in reply to you, I am reposting it so that you can read it this time if you would.

"Hi, Galveston. You indeed have misunderstood me. I did not say that one can communicate with a departed loved one the same way as they do with God as with God we pray to Him as a form of communication. With a loved one, such as a mother as you say, it can be a mental form of communication when we think about her, along with other ways. Communication is indeed communication but one is about PRAYER (to God) whilst the other is about mere communication in the various ways.

"Now let's get further into the part that you may have run into confusion with where I said "One can try to say praying to saints (which one shouldn't do) is not the same as communicating, but to be correct it is." Now, here, in essence, I am saying that even if it is wrong for people to 'pray' to saints, many do and that is a form of communication. Well, of course it is. Then I go on to say "Communication is communication whether we use prayer, thinking about them, seeing a picture .... ". And here I am saying that whether we pray, or think about someone, or see a picture of them and start mentally addressing them, etc. it is "communication". Once again, of course it is. But what I am not saying is that we 'pray' to our beloved departed in the way we pray to God as we can pray FOR our departed but not to them. Therefore, we 'communicate' with each in a very different way. It may have taken this much to address your question, but hope this clarifies matters now. Thank you for seeking further clarification."

The above was my original answer to you. I hope I have now made my position clear.

You say that communicating with the dead where King Saul attempted to talk to the prophet could not be called prayer. Well, of course it couldn't! We pray only to God as I have said so many times before and I'm sure everyone else reading my posts clearly understands that. I can clearly see now that you and the other person who asks the same-type questions do not truly read my replies for a better understanding of what it is I have actually said. If you also wish to believe only a certain Scripture as the basis for your argument in this case, then I cannot change that but I can only continue to provide what Jesus has clearly told us we can do, based on the things He did while incarnate, which would supersede anything else when seen in context. I believe what Jesus says in this regard as to our spiritual gifts, which is indeed in conflict with that verse, but you may believe what you wish. That will continue to be my position.

[Tj3]

I believe it is very germane to the subject matter inasmuch as other Scripture cannot supersede what Jesus Himself has told us we can do in JOHN 14:12 (KJV).

Only if it is taken in context. Your comments about Lazarus are not found in scripture, nor are they in concert with scripture nor is your use of John 14:12 in context of scripture. You cannot simply take verses out of context, or add to scripture and then say that is is the word of God and we have to accept it.

That is the point that I have made with reference to the context of scripture many times.

[SkyGem]

Only if it is taken in context. Your comments about Lazarus are not found in scripture, nor are they in concert with scripture nor is your use of John 14:12 in context of scripture. You cannot simply take verses out of context, or add to scripture and then say that is is the word of God and we have to accept it.

That is the point that I have made with reference to the context of scripture many times.

It is obvious that you wish to believe as you will and again that is your prerogative. But I maintain my position in this matter and will continue to as long as we maintain this discussion. If what you are saying was to be accurate then no matter what Jesus did it would not count when compared to other Scripture you prefer, even when He tells us that we too can do it. Can one be greater and purport to know more than He who is God? Certainly only the misinformed would think so. It is not expected that the Holy Bible list, in chronological order or sequence in JOHN 14:12 (KJV) all Our Heavenly Father Jesus did and then compare it with everything else in other Scriptures. It is apparent that you cannot or will not see what is being said in JOHN 14:12 that very much applies to ALL works that Jesus did that can be compared with other Biblical passages, to include not only that with Lazarus but with many others. To discount it is to be a non-believer in the works that Jesus has done and has told us we too can do. If JOHN 14:12 (KJV) was to be compared only to the raising of Lazarus from the grave as Jesus did, and the statement was "Jesus tells us in this Scripture that we too can do that", I strongly believe you would not be able to accept His word. Therefore, as to your having to accept it, that is your individual choice due to free will that God gave you. I, likewise maintain the same prerogative in my belief from what I see the Word say in JOHN 14:12 (KJV).

[Tj3]

[B]It is obvious that you wish to believe as you will and again that is your prerogative. But I maintain my position in this matter and will continue to as long as we maintain this discussion.

I am simply asking you to validate your claims using scripture. You do indeed have the right to add to what scripture says, and to subtract from what it says, but if you do so, you do not have the right to expect anyone else to accept it as though it were part of scripture.

If you wish to have me accept it, then you must validate it. That is the one point where I will not budge.

If what you are saying was to be accurate then no matter what Jesus did it would not count when compared to other Scripture you prefer, even when He tells us that we too can do it.

The problem is that you added something to scripture which is not there (claiming that Jesus communicated to the dead as a man) but that is not found in scripture, and then you try to make John 14:12, which is not in that context, as an authoritative verse on that matter. IO accept ALL of the 66 books of the Bible as authoritative, but I do not accept what others choose to change as authoritative. That is why we are coming to a stalemate here.

[SkyGem]

I am simply asking you to validate your claims using scripture. You do indeed have the right to add to what scripture says, and to subtract from what it says, but if you do so, you do not have the right to expect anyone else to accept it as though it were part of scripture.

If you wish to have me accept it, then you must validate it. That is the the one point where I will not budge.



The problem is that you added something to scripture which is not there (claiming that Jesus communicated to the dead as a man) but that is not found in scripture, and then you try to make John 14:12, which is not in that context, as an authoritative verse on that matter. IO accept ALL of the 66 books of the Bible as authoritative, but I do not accept what others choose to change as authoritative. That is why we are coming to a stalemate here.

You keep saying that if I wish for you to accept it, to validate it. I have told you time and again you are free to believe as you choose just as am I based on what I see in context to things. The Bible has not been changed in any way, shape or form I can assure you of that. But I do understand your angle here in trying to make it seem as if it has. There are many things contained in the Bible which are not fully explained and one needs to understand that. Even Jesus spoke in parables, remember? Those who wished to know what He meant had to figure out what He was saying. Some didn't, just as is prevalent here.

[SkyGem]

You keep saying that if I wish for you to accept it, to validate it. I have told you time and again you are free to believe as you choose just as am I based on what I see in context to things. The Bible has not been changed in any way, shape or form I can assure you of that. But I do understand your angle here in trying to make it seem as if it has. There are many things contained in the Bible which are not fully explained and one needs to understand that. Even Jesus spoke in parables, remember? Those who wished to know what He meant had to figure out what He was saying. Some didn't, just as is prevalent here.

Now that we have hopefully had what should be our final words on this, we can get back to the Original topic and discuss why the VATICAN permits communication with the deceased and says it is no longer sinful to do so. Everyone is certainly more than WELCOME to come on in and join this important discussion.

Fr. Gino Concetti, a theologian with authority at the Vatican has apparently informed the flock it is alright to communicate with the departed. What I want to find out in this original thread is what people think of that. Is it right to allow such communication? If not, why not and what should be done about it? Please go to the top of the page for the link to the website.

[Galveston1]

Okay. I read the page from the Vatican. I probably won't post again on this subject. I will offend some of you by this, but no man, not even the Pope has authority to contramand the command of God. I also noticed with interest the article about priests trained in exorcism. If these priests are not filled with the Holy Ghost, they will find themselves in the same predicament as the sons of Sceva:
Acts 19:14-16
14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
(KJV)

[Tj3]

[B]You keep saying that if I wish for you to accept it, to validate it. I have told you time and again you are free to believe as you choose just as am I based on what I see in context to things.

Anyone can believe what they wish, but that does not mean that it is appropriate exegesis to take passages out of context or alter it to agree with what you want to believe. Anyone is certainly able to do so, if they do so, they are no closer to what scripture actually teaches.

But I do understand your angle here in trying to make it seem as if it has. There are many things contained in the Bible which are not fully explained and one needs to understand that. Even Jesus spoke in parables, remember?

Yes, but there are many things clearly and specifically spoken and this is one area where scripture is specific. Also, where scripture is not clear, that is not an invite to fill in the blanks to suit our personal theology.

As for parables - was Jesus unclear?

Matt 13:10-17
10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" 11 He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.'

16 "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
NKJV

When you look in the context of this passage, you will see that Jesus DID explain the parables - it was those who have the kingdom of heaven within them who understand. Those who do not see them as mysteries, according to Jesus.

[SkyGem]

Okay. I read the page from the Vatican. I probably won't post again on this subject. I will offend some of you by this, but no man, not even the Pope has authority to contramand the command of God. I also noticed with interest the article about priests trained in exorcism. If these priests are not filled with the Holy Ghost, they will find themselves in the same predicament as the sons of Sceva:
Acts 19:14-16
14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
(KJV)

Thank you, Galveston1. This original thread is about the Vatican and EVP. It got side-tracked somehow with posts and another person. People should not feel offended when one presents their truth as they see it. It may not be agreeable to them but one's truth is their truth. Thanks again.

[SkyGem]

16 "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
NKJV

When you look in the context of this passage, you will see that Jesus DID explain the parables - it was those who have the kingdom of heaven within them who understand. Those who do not see them as mysteries, according to Jesus.

That is precisely the passage I had hoped you would post and why I feel that JOHN 14:12 (KJV) was revealed to me by God in context with other's use of Scriptures. Perhaps it is that God wishes for people to understand that Jesus' word is Supreme to other passages that unfortunately have been translated and re-translated time and time again by man, many who may have held certain prejudices about things since Jesus was incarnate. I feel blessed in knowing this truth and again I say I will maintain this as my position.

As for the continuation of dialog about this matter, I know I had said I would be glad to repost what I have already said but in consideration of the owner to this website and the great amount of bandwidth it takes to repost basically the same thing, since my viewpoint will not change, I will now entertain dialog concerning the Original Posting concerning the Vatican and EVP. Please know that my position is clear and firm in what you have replied to when we dialog. Now, I want to hear only on the Vatican and EVP or communication with those who have passed on and the Vatican's allowance of it. Should you not wish to discuss that, please let this serve as notice that I will not reply further as you can simply go back and re-read my previous postings to remind you of my basic position and thereby save bandwidth. Galveston 1 has already understood this and has replied with an answer. Can you do the same? You will find the link to the website at the top of the page. I would be interested in hearing your comments on this.

[Fr_Chuck]

I can find no direct evidence that the Vatican has a stance on this beyond that of bibical obedence.

The fact that some priests are doing this or that, sorry but there are nuns handing out condoms ( does not mean the vatican supports it) There are preists walking in gay parades and there were even a group of priests who had a magizine in support of gay life style ( it was finally shut down by the church but not before it was in operation for years.
There are Bishops who in secret ordain women priests each year, and the list of these things can go on and on.

[Tj3]

[B]That is precisely the passage I had hoped you would post and why I feel that JOHN 14:12 (KJV) was revealed to me by God in context with other's use of Scriptures. Perhaps it is that God wishes for people to understand that Jesus' word is Supreme to other passages that unfortunately have been translated and re-translated time and time again by man, many who may have held certain prejudices about things since Jesus was incarnate. I feel blessed in knowing this truth and again I say I will maintain this as my position.

God never contradicts His word, and so when someone tells me that He has been revealed something from God in opposition to His word, then I have no choice but to reject it.

[SkyGem]

I can find no direct evidence that the Vatican has a stance on this beyond that of bibical obedence.

The fact that some priests are doing this or that, sorry but there are nuns handing out condoms ( does not mean the vatican supports it) There are preists walking in gay parades and there were even a group of priests who had a magizine in support of gay life style ( it was finally shut down by the church but not before it was in operation for years.
There are Bishops who in secret ordain women priests each year, and the list of these things can go on and on.

Um, glad you brought that out. And on top of all that, the sex scandals that have literally brought many dioceses to their knees! Doesn't sound good at all for a denomination that claims to be the only true religion does it! And to further think that many of those you speak about were supposed to be giving their life to Jesus as part of their calling! What would Jesus say? What would He say of the Vatican that knew about all of this, for the most part, but did nothing about it for years until it got to be too much.

[SkyGem]

God never contradicts His word, and so when someone tells me that He has been revealed something from God in opposition to His word, then I have no choice but to reject it.

Again, as is your choice. Sure wish you had been at THE INQUISITION to tell all of those crazy people to stop the killings as murder is against God's Sixth Commandment. Sorry you weren't! God certainly speaks to people and works in mysterious ways much of which we shall never fully understand. But the only contradiction about what others may be receiving from God is only in your mind as you are of that mind-set already in that things have to be a certain way or no way at all. Knowing you for the short amount of time that I have, I certainly understand that only too well.