[excon]

Because of you, I have changed my mind on marijuana..... Just to let you know ;)

Hello in:

Thank you, in. I appreciate the feedback. Makes me all warm and fuzzy inside... or, maybe it was the joint I just smoked.

excon

[RubyPitbull]

Wow. So people do listen to you. I am impressed ex. ;)

Inthebox, what about the atheistic viewpoint, has he gotten through to you? Have you learned anything new? Because that was more along the lines of what I was referring to in my posts. The Atheism vs Christianity debates that go on here.

[Dark_crow]

Atheism to me is not so much a question of whether a God exists or not, but rather whether what people attribute to their God is true. For instance, to quote Thomas Paine:
Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.

“That God cannot lie, is no advantage to your argument, because it is no proof that priests can not, or that the Bible does not”

[ordinaryguy]

Yeah, I’m a Republican in spite of the fact that I am embarrassed by the Christian right.:)

I feel your pain. Are you also embarrassed by the fiscal irresponsibility that has plagued every Republican Administration since Reagan's? Oops, off topic. Sorry.

[inthebox]

Wow. So people do listen to you. I am impressed ex. ;)

Inthebox, what about the atheistic viewpoint, has he gotten through to you? Have you learned anything new? Because that was more along the lines of what I was referring to in my posts. The Atheism vs Christianity debates that go on here.

No. Learned a lot, yes. Most of the atheist I know of in real life are ex- Christians. I can understand that the legalistic aspect of organized religion does that. The challenges to what one believes, I think keeps me from being complacent. That I am thankful for.

[ordinaryguy]

Most of the atheist I know of in real life are ex- Christians. I can understand that the legalistic aspect of organized religion does that.

I am an ex-Christian, though not exactly an atheist. What you call "the legalistic aspect of organized religion" was the principal reason for my leaving the fellowship of a church, but it really didn't have much to do with my changing beliefs about God. On that front, I just came to the realization that if there was a God worthy of my belief and worship, it certainly wasn't THAT one. J. B. Phillips (the Bible translator) wrote a book that I read about that time, Your God is too Small. I had to admit, it was true.

The challenges to what one believes, I think keeps me from being complacent. That I am thankful for.

The way we react to challenges to our core beliefs says a lot about our character, I think, and thankfulness is a virtue.

[De Maria]

There are threads created under Christianity which, IMO, don't really belong there. "Prayer in school" and that "Happy Holidays" threads. But, they were started by Christians and even though it appears all opinions are welcome, in actuality, they are not. We are reminded constantly by the Christian responders when they get frustrated and upset, that "this is a Christian thread." That tells me either one of two things. 1. The original intention in posting there was actually not to collect opinions from every camp but, to have their own kind agree with them and make them feel better about whatever propelled them to post in the first place. 2. They view those boards as their area to share a camaraderie with fellow Christians. The "why" of number two is various. It depends on the person and what is happening in their life.....

No, no, no.

C'mon Ruby. I was handling them left and right and then they accused me of being a "troll"? What? So, I pointed out to them that the ones who are trolling are they, themselves. I didn't go looking for them in the atheist section.

How did an atheist get to be the mod on the Christian section?

Sincerely,

De Maria

[RubyPitbull]

No, no, no.

C'mon Ruby. I was handling them left and right and then they accused me of being a "troll"? What? So, I pointed out to them that the ones who are trolling are they, themselves. I didn't go looking for them in the atheist section.

How did an atheist get to be the mod on the Christian section?

Sincerely,

De Maria

DM I don't understand the point you are making re: trolls. I know you "didn't go looking
for them in the atheist section." That was a large part of my point throughout my posts here.

As far as the mods go, you have many of them throughout the site. They patrol all the threads and make sure nothing starts to veer off topic or breaks down into name calling & abuse, among other duties. Most of the mods are affiliated with a religion as far as I know. In addition, as members, we all have a responsibility to the site to ensure that everyone is adhering to the rules.

[ordinaryguy]

I was handling them left and right

Your characterization of what you were doing says a lot about your motivation for doing it.

[De Maria]

DM I don't understand the point you are making re: trolls. I know you "didn't go looking for them in the atheist section." That was a large part of my point throughout my posts here.

You jumped in to help them. Now you want to make it sound like you were helping the Christians.

I do like one thing you pointed out. It is they who have trouble with freedom of speech. This little group of atheists and nonChristians wants to say whatever they want to say and go unchallenged. But Christians have a say too. They'll have to get used to it.

[RubyPitbull]

You jumped in to help them.

What are you talking about? If you are referring to the "prayer in school" thread, tempers were flaring, you were being accused of saying a lot more than you actually said, which I thought was unfair, and I was trying to bring the thread back to point. I believe I defended your right to your opinion if I am not mistaken. So what if you and I have opposing viewpoints? I was really enjoying our exchanges. I do like the way you lay out your arguments. You have an interesting way of getting your points across. I never told you I thought you were wrong for wanting what you want, I didn't attack you, and I certainly wasn't helping anyone else attack you. Perhaps the problem here is that you are misinterpreting the intent behind my later responses? I am sorry you are choosing to read something negative into them rather than appreciate the truly benign intent behind them.

Now you wanna make it sound like you were helping the Christians.

I think you need to read all my posts here. I don't like anyone purposefully trying to force their opinions or beliefs down the throat of another. Eventually one or more people become abusive in their responses and the result leaves people upset. The Christian threads seem to be the area where this happens with the most frequency. It always seems to break down into a devout Christian vs Atheist (or non-Christian) argument. Why? Perhaps, as I stated, the Christians don't want the Atheists to voice their opinions on the Christian forum. From some of the responses received in those threads, that is exactly what has been said.

I do like one thing you pointed out. It is they who have trouble with freedom of speech. This little group of atheists and nonChristians wants to say whatever they want to say and go unchallenged. But Christians have a say too. They'll have to get used to it.

I think both sides "have to get used to it." Of course you have a say, but so do they. The problem comes into play in how people choose to respond to a viewpoint that is diametrically opposed to theirs. You are one of the handful of Christians on this site that plays the persecution card, which doesn't help in these discussions. Christians aren't the only people of faith on this planet that feel persecuted. There are other faiths that have been dealing with this problem much longer (centuries and millennia longer) than the devout Christians in the United States. If we look at just the Christian threads here, why do some devout Christians choose to claim they feel persecuted simply because someone doesn't agree with them and chooses to continue a dialogue about the differences, when others just as devout in their Christianity, don't do that? It appears to me to be a control issue.

In reference to your previous post here regarding the troll accusation you received, there are variations to the definition of "troll." It not just the one you pulled up on the "Holy Days" thread. Here is another one from Troll (Internet) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia :

"An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who intentionally posts controversial messages in an on-line community such as an on-line discussion forum with the intention of baiting other users into an argumentative response.[1] "Troll" is also used in a broader pejorative sense to question the good faith of any Internet user who has annoyed the person using the term."

And another definition: What is an Internet Troll? (Posting Guidelines - Netiquette) What is a Forum Troll?

"An "Internet troll" or "Forum Troll" or "Message Board Troll" is a person who posts outrageous message to bait people to answer. Forum Troll delights in sowing discord on the forums. A troll is someone who inspires flaming rhetoric, someone who is purposely provoking and pulling people into flaming discussion. Flaming discussions usually end with name calling and a flame war.

A classic" .... "troll is trying to make us believe that he is a genuine skeptic with no hidden agenda. He is divisive and argumentative with need-to-be-right attitude, "searching for the truth", flaming discussion, and sometimes insulting people or provoking people to insult him. Troll is usually an expert in reusing the same words of its opponents and in turning it against them.

A" ...... "Troll" ....... "is generally interested to make other forum members look stupid. A troll will sometimes use insults to provoke other people to insult him. Then, he will complain to moderators of being insulted......"

P.S. excon, sorry to go off topic here but I felt DM deserved a response.

[De Maria]

Ok, this turned out to be more of a big deal than anticipated. My post on this thread started kind of as a joke with a point. Joke being that I was kickin' behind and takin' names.

Point being what you just said, " If you are referring to the "prayer in school" thread, tempers were flaring, you were being accused of saying a lot more than you actually said, which I thought was unfair...."

I was really enjoying our exchanges. I do like the way you lay out your arguments.

Thanks. Likewise. In the few exchanges I've had with you, I've learned that you actually go to the trouble of reading the message. Rare quality on this forum. But I like it.

You are one of the handful of Christians on this site that plays the persecution card,

Sorry. Sometimes I revert to old atheist habits. I'll try to be more Christain in the future. ;)

If you want me to answer in more detail, I can, just let me know. But I was really just pa"trolling" on this thread. Just studying the competition.

Sincerely,

[Galveston1]

Can another christian intrude on your thread? What I see as a problem is those claiming to be Atheists attacking traditional values, Christianity, etc. A real Atheist would never bother to attack someone or something that he does not believe exists in the first place. To attack admits belief. Does this make sense to you who are Atheists?

[excon]

Can another christian intrude on your thread? What I see as a problem is those claiming to be Atheists attacking traditional values, Christianity, etc.....

Sorry. Sometimes I revert to old atheist habits. I'll try to be more Christain in the future. ;)

Hello Gal:

I don't know. The above looks like an attack on atheists values to me... but maybe I don't comprehend English very well.

In fact, I don't think you can show me ANY attacks on Christians here in this thread... Certainly not from me. Can show me where I've attacked individual Christians or traditional values or Christianity as a whole?

I think you're feeling a little persecuted.

excon

[NeedKarma]

What I see as a problem is those claiming to be Atheists attacking traditional values, Christianity, etc.

What are "traditional values" anyway?

[jillianleab]

It makes sense, Galveston, but what do you consider "attacking" Christianity and traditional values?

[michealb]

When an atheist disagrees with a traditional value of a religion. We are not disagreeing with the god of that religion we are disagreeing with the members of that religion. We don't have to believe in your god in order to disagree with your actions. Example say you believe that at the at the bottom the bay is a pot of gold and you think that you need to jump off the bridge to get that gold. I don't believe that there is a pot of gold at the bottom of the bay but I still might attack your idea to jump off the bridge to get it. I might even suggest a better way for you to go looking for the gold even though I'm sure there is no gold to be found. Now for why do I care if you jump of the bridge that depends, maybe I'm handcuffed to you, maybe your holding up traffic on the bridge and I'm late getting home, maybe your throwing your children off the bridge first there are any number of reasons I might care what your doing but the point is that I don't have to believe what you do to care about your actions.

[Galveston1]

OK. Traditional values; Christmas, voluntary public prayers, under God (pledge of allegiance), in God we trust (on money). There's 4 anyway. Now I know none of you would ever attack any of these, but I recall Madelyn O'Hare, and now we have Newdow. I don't think either of these was/is an Atheist, but are anti-God. Surely you can see the distinction?

[jillianleab]

The things you mention aren't attacking Christianity, they are enforcing equality.

Christmas - assuming you mean the "Happy Holidays" "Merry Christmas" thing, why is it unreasonable to want a greeting that is inclusive instead of exclusive? Remember, "Merry Christmas" only applies to Christians, why should everyone else be excluded?

Voluntary public prayers - I'll give you this, an atheist who attacks someone's right to pray is simply a bad person in my book. But it sort of depends on what you mean by "voluntary". If you mean a time in public school where students are led in Christian prayer and non-Christians are expected to sit quietly, that's a violation of the Constitution. Christians may pray to themselves in school whenever they want; they cannot, however, be led in prayer BY the school. Again, it's an inclusive/exclusive thing.

Under God/In God we Trust - A lot of people don't know this phrase was added to our pledge in 1954, so it doesn't hold the historical significance some think it does. Again, it can be seen as a constitutional violation. "In God we Trust" wasn't present on all money until 1957, and holds the same constitutional violation as "Under God". Contrary to popular opinion/belief, this is NOT a Christian nation, merely a nation which is dominated by Christians.

So if you see those things as an "attack" on Christian values instead of a battle for equal treatment and application of the Constitution, then certainly you are entitled to that opinion. But fighting for those things doesn't imply a belief in a god, so there is great reason why an atheist or non-Christian should care.

[NeedKarma]

OK. Traditional values; Christmas, voluntary public prayers, under God (pledge of allegiance), in God we trust (on money). There's 4 anyway. Now I know none of you would ever attack any of these, but I recall Madelyn O'Hare, and now we have Newdow. I don't think either of these was/is an Atheist, but are anti-God. Surely you can see the distinction?

That what I thought you meant for some reason. Christians have hijacked that phrase and twisted for their political gain. More details here:
Traditional values - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Traditional values refer to those beliefs, moral codes, and mores that are passed down from generation to generation within a culture, subculture or community. Since the late 1970s in the U.S., the term "traditional values" has become synonymous with "family values" and imply a congruence with orthodox Christianity. However "family values" is arguably a modern politicized subset of traditional values, which is a larger concept, anthropologically speaking. It is also not necessarily a political idea, though has come to be associated with a particular vein of Evangelism and politics, embodied by some American politicians such as Ronald Reagan, Dan Quayle, and George W. Bush, and the Christian right more broadly, as embodied for example by Pat Robertson.. . The term can also refer to an intention to preserve ancient or traditional customs and values against anything deemed "innovation."