[Hope12]

The whole problem with your argument is you put "gay" sin above all others, and that is discrimination of one sin over another. Not only is it prejudicial, but short sighted as sin is sin, and there is no priority set, only by man. God commands us to love the sinner, but if you discriminate against him you are going against what God commands us to do. You have effectively negated what God has told us, and put the sin before what is Gods' commandment. Okay hate the sin, but why make the person an object of your hate??? Justifying your position is putting your own opinions before Gods, and we know that will not work, and makes you a self richeous ------, and a hypocrite to the teachings of the Creator. That sin is greater than homosexuality!!!

Hello Skell, No sin is sin, all sin is bad, the only difference is that the sin of homosexuality is the sin being discusse here in this post. No one but yourself seems to think that the discussion is prejudicial. We should and will always love the person who sins, but we must hate what God hates, the act of the sin. We hate the act of homosexuals but we do not hate those who are homosexuals. When I wrote my original post there is not hate for the homosexual person/s but there is only hate for the actions of the homosexual because this is what God hates. Really then if the sinner or the act of sin they committ cause hate of others to come up into their heart, is it not the homosexual themselves who promote the hate or make themselves objects of hate?

No post I have ever posted, either this one or any other posts would show hate towards any person. I only show hate towards there sinful actions. If they continue in their sinful actions then they cause people to hate them. Is that wrong for people to hate the person? Yes it is, but I do not promote or condon that hate. God teaches us to hate the sin they commit not the sinner.

The hate of the act of homosexuality is what God hates and warning others is the doing of God's will not putting myself first but God and what he states is right and wrong, what is sin and what is not sin. How can one approve of the sinful act of homosexuality and say they love God? They can not, but they can place the homosexual person above the sin when it come to loving the person who commits the sinful act of homosexuality. Yes we must hate the sin and not the sinner.

Take care,
Hope12

[Hope12]

SnaveLeber - you said:

"homosexuality is not something that is instilled from birth. Sorry to break it to you. Its a choice."

Do you have any evidence for this? Or is just something you believe because it fits with your world view of homosexuality being a sin, therefore if anyone is pre-disposed to it they must be sinful? How do you know it's not simply a matter of whatever genes one happens to be born with?

This is really the crux of the matter - one side (yours) views homosexuality as a choice, like deciding to rob a bank, and the other side (mine) views homosexuality, or heterosexuality for that matter, as a pre-disposition one is born with, like having red hair.

Hello Ebaines,

It is a choice because why would God condemn something like homsexuality and then allow infants to be born with homosexuality born in them? That just don't make sense.

A father would not tell his son, I will punish you if you smoke one more time. Then take cigirettes and give them to his son.

Come on, lets get real here. God did not put these feeling in humans and then condemn them and tell us it is a sin and they will be punished unless they change. The only way a child is pre-disposed to homosexality is if that is what they learn as they are growing up, then they choose to follow that course.

I can't believe that people believe in such false propaganda as people being born homosexuals. It just is so unbelievable the extent some would go to practice a sinful course and then try to justify it with unreasonable comments as, "they were born that way." That is just wrong, they did not inherit homosexuality, they have chosen to be that way themselves.

Take care,
Hope12

[talaniman]

Your entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong, or close minded it is.

[Pete Hanysz]

The man is an idiot!

[Treeny]

We are all born sinners, even an evil thought is considered a sin. That is why Jesus died on the cross, so that we can be forgiven for our humanly sins.
As far as being a minister who is homosexual or bisexual I personally feel like a minister should be the ultimate example of purity and living accordingly to the bible.

[ebaines]

Hello Ebaines,

It is a choice because why would God condemn something like homsexuality and then allow infants to be born with homosexuality born in them? That just don't make sense.

This is the crux of the discussion: you argue that homosexuality is a sin and therefore must be a personal choice; I argue that homosexuality is not a choice and therefore is not a sin. Your belief is based on a literal interpretation of a few passages in the bible (the "clobber" passages). My belief is based on a broader interpretation of general biblical themes (love, fairness, etc.), scientific findings, and personal experiences.

[margarita_momma]

I am glad this thread was resurrected. Makes me even happier that I am now an atheist. I don't have to judge anyone and I can look at everyone in the same light and not be judging people on who they want to love or be with. This is why I don't believe in God or the bible. I believe you should love everyone EQUALLY. Shame on some of you... shame. :D

P.S.

Karma Karma Karma

[phil_stl]

Every part of your statement doesn't make any sense regarding those you are blatantly accusing of judging others.

Makes me even happier that I am now an atheist. I don't have to judge anyone.

My question for you is: what CULT were you a part of that required you to judge someone else?
Because it definitely wasn't any religion I have heard of! More specifically it definitely couldn't have been Christianity (which is what this thread is talking about), which means you are either off topic if you are talking about a cult you were in, or you are ill-informed regarding the Bible if you are talking about Christianity.

Why? Because Christians are taught in many different scriptures that judging others is a sin and that they are not to do it (just like they are taught homosexuality is a sin). A sin is a sin and all are viewed in the same light in God's eyes (this is from the Bible by the way). People that feel that they are to judge homosexuals have miss-interpreted the Bible and have ignored important scriptures as Christians should not hate homosexuals but instead their choice to continually sin! Therefore people that choose to sin continually should not be rewarded – especially with the job of teaching others how to stay away from sin.

They should also look at the conclusion of the Bible and act on that… what is it?… well it's the New Testament and what does it incite us to do? Follow Jesus's example! Jesus doesn't treat gays unfairly nor should any Christian do so because Christians should follow his example!

This is why I don't believe in God or the bible. I believe you should love everyone EQUALLY.

And so does the Bible and Jesus shows this through his actions in the New Testament! So wait… why was it again that you don't believe in the Bible??

Shame on some of you....shame.

This phrase says a lot regarding the integrity of your whole statement/argument! You condemn people that judge others; you accuse the Bible (unless you really were talking about some cult you were in) of being a book that incites people to judge others and also say that this is the reason you have lost your faith BUT you are finishing by using a word that is intended for judgment!

P.S. Karma Karma Karma

In case you didn't know, Karma is a Buddhist term. You are atheist. Now I understand what you are probably trying to say is you use this as your morals so all I have to say is that is wonderful that you still have good morals, but don't forget the definition/explanation of the word is also found in the Bible when it says to “treat others as you yourself would like to be treated.”

Need I say more? Every part of your statement does not flow with the rest of itself or hold water period. If you are going to say something don't contradict it seconds later. I think you should also try reading the Bible without putting your own twist on what it says. Because I know for a fact even though English may not be my mother tongue, Matthew 7:1 "Do not judge so that you will not be judged" is pretty straight forward and doesn't mean "You have to judge anyone" like you said at the start of your message, but actually "Do not judge" means... Do not judge! No matter what language you translate that to.

[talaniman]

If someone is attracted to the same sex, but is celibate, does that make a difference? Is just being gay a sin? This is a double edge sword because it may include in this sin, a committed monogamous couple, who can never marry his/her partner.

[Christian at Heart]

Hi Everybody,
Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; what is detestable. Lev. 18: 22 are clearcut words that should not be ignored. Detestable stands for abhorred, atrrocious, god-awful, despicable , disgusting. God says we should love them as we are suppose to love our neighbors, but He also says not to condone their sin. To give someone that is homosexual a leading position in church, is therefore clearly wrong.

[Christian at Heart]

Hi Magarita Moma,
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities- his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
For although they new God , they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkend. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fool,s and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impuruty for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped created things rather than the Creator- who is forever praised. Amen
This is taken word for word from God's true word the bible in Romans 1: 20-25 NIV
It would not hurt you to read the rest of the chapter. I hope you did not burn your bible. It is never to late to repent.

[talaniman]

I'm still confused since how do you know if someone is gay or not, unless they say so?? I mean if the head minister never says he is gay, how can you not stop him from being head minister, or whatever title is correct?

[Fr_Chuck]

Hope12:
How many 'divorced' men are serving as leaders in your church???? Jesus denounced 'divorce' in no uncertain terms. He never denounced Homosexuals!

Perhaps because there were no open homosexuals at that time, and of course he did when he accepted all of the scriptures as valid and taught from them in the temple.

And of course since all sin can be forgiven a divorced person can be forgiven for his divorce, and a homosexual can be forgiven, all he has to do is stop his sexual activities, since being forgiveen needs repentance, so the sinner has to admit their sin ( at least to thierself) and ask to be forgiven, That is the homosexuals problem, they can not truly get forgiven, since they are not turning from their sin

[talaniman]

My question was a gay person who is celibate, being a leader of the church.

[Fr_Chuck]

A gay person who is celebrate is not in sin, and can easily be a leader in the church, we have several in our church who are priests, Bishops and also hermits who are gay but have turned from the active life style.

[margarita_momma]

Every part of your statement doesn’t make any sense regarding those you are blatantly accusing of judging others.



My question for you is: what CULT were you a part of that required you to judge someone else?
Because it definitely wasn’t any religion I have heard of! More specifically it definitely couldn’t have been Christianity (which is what this thread is talking about), which means you are either off topic if you are talking about a cult you were in, or you are ill-informed regarding the Bible if you are talking about Christianity.

Why? Because Christians are taught in many different scriptures that judging others is a sin and that they are not to do it (just like they are taught homosexuality is a sin). A sin is a sin and all are viewed in the same light in God’s eyes (this is from the Bible by the way). People that feel that they are to judge homosexuals have miss-interpreted the Bible and have ignored important scriptures as Christians should not hate homosexuals but instead their choice to continually sin! Therefore people that choose to sin continually should not be rewarded – especially with the job of teaching others how to stay away from sin.

They should also look at the conclusion of the Bible and act on that… what is it?… well it’s the New Testament and what does it incite us to do? Follow Jesus’s example! Jesus doesn’t treat gays unfairly nor should any Christian do so because Christians should follow his example!




And so does the Bible and Jesus shows this through his actions in the New Testament! So wait… why was it again that you don’t believe in the Bible?!??





This phrase says a lot regarding the integrity of your whole statement/argument! You condemn people that judge others; you accuse the Bible (unless you really were talking about some cult you were in) of being a book that incites people to judge others and also say that this is the reason you have lost your faith BUT you are finishing by using a word that is intended for judgment!




In case you didn’t know, Karma is a Buddhist term. You are atheist. Now I understand what you are probably trying to say is you use this as your morals so all I have to say is that is wonderful that you still have good morals, but don’t forget the definition/explanation of the word is also found in the Bible when it says to “treat others as you yourself would like to be treated.”

Need I say more? Every part of your statement does not flow with the rest of itself or hold water period. If you are going to say something don't contradict it seconds later. I think you should also try reading the Bible without putting your own twist on what it says. Because I know for a fact even though English may not be my mother tongue, Matthew 7:1 "Do not judge so that you will not be judged" is pretty straight forward and doesn't mean "You have to judge anyone" like you said at the start of your message, but actually "Do not judge" means... Do not judge! No matter what language you translate that to.

Wow! Didn't you have a whole mouth full of pent up bible crap that you just had to get out on someone? Do you feel better now? Good! I'm happy for you. I started out commenting on all your little snide comments and bible versus but what is the use. You are just a brainwashed bible thumper and I am an atheist heathern. I have my thoughts and views and you have your bible and god.

And yes, you are correct. I use Karma as a moral reference and I know the terms religious background, but seriously, there was no need for you to quote your little bible versus to me.

I suppose in my original post I did judge some people by insinuating that a lot of them were just judging homosexuals because the bible says its bad. But in my defense, any God that would say a good, God-fearing person that happens to love someone of the same sex will burn in hell when they die just because He doesn't like it, is a little sick to me. When I was a believer, I had my own image of God that didn't include the bible, only to be shuned from my church because I didn't believe in the so called Word of God. How can people believe in and live by a book that wasn't even written in the same century as when Jesus supposedly walked. Anyways...good luck with bashing other non believers. Its been fun. Happy New Year Everyone! :cool:

[NeedKarma]

A gay person who is celebrate is not in sin, and can easily be a leader in the church, we have several in our church who are priests, Bishops and also hermits who are gay but have turned from the active life style.

If someone is celibate to the extent that they have absolutely no sex life then how are they gay... or even heterosexual? Wouldn't they just be 'celebate', or 'neutral'?

[Tj3]

If someone is celibate to the extent that they have absolutely no sex life then how are they gay...or even heterosexual? Wouldn't they just be 'celebate', or 'neutral'?

The term generally used is sexual orientation. If I were to take your argument for a moment, and apply it to every young person who is a virgin, then the logical conclusion would be that every virgin is non-sexual. My point is that whether a person is homosexual or heterosexual has nothing to do with whether they are active but has everything to do with what they choose to be attracted to.

Now for this reason I disagree that the orientation is not a sin. Jesus spoke a great deal about our orientation in Matthew Chapter 5:

Matt 5:21-30
21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder,' and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment. 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you are thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
NKJV

Notice that it is not the act which is considered a sin, but rather Jesus tells us that it is what is first in our heart - our orientation. For this reason, I would take the position that a person needs to deal with that orientation first in order to be a leader in the church.

[desidario]

What you are referring to is NOT orientation, but desire!! Attraction is not a choice; and orientation is no more a choice than is left-handedness.

[desidario]

Bravo Mama. It has always amazed me that certain Christians feel it is o.k. to dump on non-believers, but go ballistic when they get some of their own back!!