[ETWolverine]

No, the truth is that you two are now giving me the good cop, bad cop routine.

Which one am I? Can I be the bad cop this time?

You wouldn't know the truth if it fell out of the sky, landed on your face and started wigglin.

Oh... is that how you get your facts? Waiting for them to fall out of the sky?

Elliot

[ETWolverine]

So, tell me Mag. Was the NIE correct about whether Sadam had WMDs or not?

If it was, then the War in Iraq is justified.

If it wasn't, then why should we believe that they've done any better this time... especially given the weaknesses in the report that Tom has pointed out?

And if the EU, which tends to be more inclined than we are toward negotiation, is saying that we need sanctions against Iran, what does that tell you?

And finally, if we don't go along with the EU and the UN and the other Middle Eastern countries that wish to impose sanctions, and we instead decide to take a different course of action, will we be accused of acting unilaterally?

Please, answer these questions. Don't give me conspiracy websites and talk about the nature of currencies, and the global consparacy to control the world through the value of the dollar. Just answer the questions.

Elliot

[magprob]

I told you what is really happening. Bush is running around the globe trying to keep the dollar as the worlds reserve currency. His, and a lot of other peoples wealth depends on it. Imperial America depends upon it. This is an economic war, that's all it is. He will use any means at his diposal to that end.
As far as your coveted NIE goes, I wish I had a pickup load of them as I am now running low on toilet paper and it is a long way into town.
In a political world that is for the most part smoke and mirrors, you see the smoke, not the fire.

[tomder55]

Did you see where Russia just delivered nuclear fuel to Iran's non-existant nuclear program ?

The smoke and mirror part goes like this : The fuel the Ruskies delivered is low grade and the Iranians will return the spent fuelto Russia after it is used for safe keeping .

The fire part goes like this :

That part will tie up the UN IAEA inspectors while the 3000 centrifuges continue to produce
Weapon grade plutonium in various undisclosed places . Iran has 3000 centrifuges but wants to increase their number to 50,000 .

[magprob]

But why do we tell other countries they can't have power plants or anything else for that matter. The only country that ever dropped a nuke is who? Smoke and mirrors.

[ETWolverine]

I told you what is really happening. Bush is running around the globe trying to keep the dollar as the worlds reserve currency. His, and a lot of other peoples wealth depends on it. Imperial America depends upon it. This is an economic war, that's all it is. He will use any means at his diposal to that end.
As far as your coveted NIE goes, I wish I had a pickup load of them as I am now running low on toilet paper and it is a long way into town.
In a political world that is for the most part smoke and mirrors, you see the smoke, not the fire.

Mag, did you read the part of my last post where I said "Please, answer these questions. Don't give me conspiracy websites and talk about the nature of currencies, and the global consparacy to control the world through the value of the dollar. Just answer the questions"? If you do that, you will see how ridiculous your conspiracy theories are.

Have you ever heard of Occam's Razor? It is a theory that says that the most simple explanation for events is most likely the right one. Obviously that isn't true 100% of the time. But in most cases, it tends to be true.

So... do your explanations of what is going on fit Occam's Razor? Are they the simplest explanations of why we would be interested in keeping Iran from getting nuclear weapons?

But why do we tell other countries they can't have power plants or anything else for that matter. The only country that ever dropped a nuke is who? Smoke and mirrors.

We DON'T say it to every country. The UK, Australia, Germany, France, Canada, Turkey, Israel and many other countries have nuclear power. As far as I can tell, we didn't stand in the way of any of those countries getting nuclear power.

But... all of those countries obtained nuclear power above-board. They didn't do so in secret. (Israel obtained nuclear WEAPONS in secret, as did Pakistan, but not nuclear energy plants.) These countries all submitted to international scrutiny and still do. The IAEA still inspects American nuclear plants on a regular basis, as well as those of other countries. Nuclear materiels that are produced by these countries are documented and that documentation is made available to the regulating agencies.

Iran hasn't done that. Iran has been acting without allowing IAEA and other regulatory bodies to inspect their work. (Similar to what Iraq was doing under Saddam.) If all they really want is clean nuclear energy, then why not prove it by allowing inspections?

The only answer for this is that they are trying to hide something about their nuclear program. There are only two possible reasons for this. 1) They don't want us to know that they are really trying to produce nuclear WEAPONS, or 2) they wish to make us THINK that they are producing nuclear weapons in order to give an appearance of being stronger than they really are.

If the reality is number 2, then I really don't have a problem with it. But unless we are sure that it is number 2, we MUST assume that it is number 1. If we don't, we're playing a fools game.

So, what's the big problem with Iran having nuclear weapons?

How about the fact that Ahmadinjad has said that Israel must be wiped off the map. (World Without Zionism speech, 10/26/05) If he had nuclear weapons, does anyone doubt that he would use them against Israel? Would you trust Ahmadinejad with nukes?

But if Iran would submit to inspections of their nuclear program and would make their nuclear program above-board, nobody would have a problem with them having nuclear power plants. Bush has made that clear on numerous occasions. He has specifically stated that all he wants is Iran to be open and above-board. The fact that they are hiding their nuclear program means that we HAVE to take action to prevent a nuclear war.

So leave all those conspiracy theories about currencies and global domination home. The simplest reason for Bush's actions is to keep Iran from getting nuclear weapons, because they have threatened to use those weapons against other countries. And in this case, the simplest explanation really is the correct one.

Elliot

[magprob]

You are the only one calling the truth a conspiracy. That's how you try to discredit people. The axis of evil are the only OPEC nations that are trying to pull out of American controlled oil exports. You know that. Why do you not admit it. If I didn't know better, I would say you are part of some strange conspiracy?
Let Israel Nuke them. Then they can nuke Russia too. They will have to. See what Sampson can really do other than stir SH!T.

[magprob]

Here is another conspiracy site for you. A lot of people call it "TRUTH." but we know you will have none of it.

Feasta - Oil, Currency and the War on Iraq

Oh yea, and let's through this story out to keep them on the edge of their seats. What better timing. (SMOKE AND MIRRORS)

Bush orders cuts in nuclear stockpile - Politics - MSNBC.com

OH! Hey! Let's throw this one out too . Even though we know Ethanol will never be cheap enough, it will make us look good.
Congress approves auto fuel economy increase - Autos - MSNBC.com

[ETWolverine]

Mag, again you haven't answered a single one of my questions or points. You have simply said "I know the truth" and attached a bunch of conspiracy stories to that statement. I have, on several occasions, already told you why those conspiracies don't make any sense, how switching away from the dollar to some other currency to purchase oil wouldn't change anything, etc

The Axis of Evil are Iran, Iraq and North Korea. I had no idea that North Korea was a member of OPEC.

As for the claim that the Axis of Evil are the only OPEC nations that are trying to pull out of American-controlled oil exports, what about Venezuela? What about Libya? Why were they never named as part of the Axis of Evil, if the point is to control oil-exports?

And finally, if the US controls OPEC's oil exports, why are oil prices in the USA so high right now? Why haven't we gotten OPEC (the parts of it that we supposedly still control) to increase their exports and lower prices?

Are you aware that Iran and Iraq together only produce 7% of the total world production of oil? Even if we "lost control" of that 7%, would it interfere with our ability obtain oil? And since we are not in danger of "losing control" of Iraq's oil supplies any time soon, are you arguing that we are taking action against Iran over what comes out to just under 5% of world production?

Finally, you still have not answered the point that Iran is a net oil IMPORTER. It exports crude but imports refined fuel because it has no refining capacity of its own. So how is their non-dollar oil-bourse a threat to us? They need the oil that we refine. We produce more refined fuel than all of Europe combined, and three times as much as the entire Middle East combined. We produce 3 times as much refined oil as the next largest producer of refined oil, which is China. If it was a matter of controlling the oil markets, we already have that control by virtue of the fact that we are the largest exporter of refined fuel in the world, producing roughly 22.5% of the entire world's capacity of refined fuel products. Iran and the rest of the world cannot survive without US refined fuel production. We are already in de-facto control of the world oil market, and it has nothing to do with the fact that oil is traded in US dollars.

The entire idea makes absolutely no economic sense. It costs more to go to war with Iraq and Iran than we gain in oil dollars by winning those wars. The "rich people" who's wealth Bush is supposedly trying to protect and maintain by going to war with Iran and Iraq know that, and would actively keep Bush from doing something so stupid, if it really was about controlling the oil market.

The actions Bush has been taking in Iran and Iraq have nothing to do with oil or currency.

Elliot

[magprob]

That is the most naïve thing I have ever heard. There are refineries all over the world. You are a banker and you don't understand how money really works and now you say we refine all of the worlds oil or they would have none. OK, I'm convinced, you are just spreading propaganda. You don't even understand how Trade works. The American dollar as the world reserve currency and the way other countries must have it to buy oil. I'm sorry but either you are just here to spread propaganda or you are just naïve. There is no real debate with you. You try to intimidate people by making them unsure and question their stand. Well Bud, that don't work with me. You don't understand enough about the world economy as related to politics or how it all works to understand what I have laid out for you.

GLOBAL: World Oil Refining & Trading Map (oil refineries in the world)

[TheUnboundOne]

Dear Magprob,

Just curious: When you talk about Israel's "Holocaust on the Palestinian people," are you talking about the same Israel that has Arabic and Islamic citizens who are equal before the law?

Are you talking about the Israel that has Arabic and Islamic political parties in the Knesset?

Are you talking about the Israel that has political proceedings, schools, and road signs with Arabic, English, and Hebrew as the official languages?

Are you talking about the Israel that gave up the Sinai, Gaza, and the Golan Heights and with a neighboring sovereign Palestinian Authority in the West Bank?

Are you talking about the Israel that has more Arabs and Muslims in it than it had before Israel became established as a nation?

When you say that Israel is engaged in a "Holocaust," it sounds to me like you are equating apples and Zyklon-B cyanide pellets.

[TheUnboundOne]

Dear Magprob,

I don't see where Iran allegedly flooding the world with oil would be a problem.

Heck, I wish the United States would flood itself and the world with oil by getting rid of the environmental restrictions that prevent us from digging and building refineries. I would love to wake up every morning and see an oil rig in my back yard and/or a line of offshore rigs parallel to Carolina Beach or Myrtle Beach. Then, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, and every one of the anti-American, terrorist funding OPEC regimes would collapse of their own weight.

In the meantime, just because the Iranian Hitler may not be using a nuclear program for fission or fusion bombs or missiles, that doesn't keep him from using nuclear material for a "dirty bomb." In fact, a "dirty bomb," which disperses radioactive material with conventional explosives, would be far easier to construct and would still inflict mass death.

Nor does the lack of fission and fusion bombs or missiles keep the Iranian Hitler from making biological or chemical weapons.

Regardless of what the NIE report said, the Iranian Hitler and his Islamic henchmen and counterparts want the Planet for themselves, they have explicitly said as much, and they will resort to any means to get their ultimate goal. Lovers of freedom, keep your powder dry!

[George_1950]

Does anyone recall how many times the UN sanctioned Saddam's Iraq? Weren't the sanctions pertaining to Saddam's nuclear program and chemical program? All he had to do was allow inspectors to do their job.