[Alty]

To me. If they have to try to deal with the problem on their own for a while without success, they will HAVE to come to me eventually.

In Alchoholics Anonymous, they call it hitting a bottom. When the problem becomes so overriding and so unmanageable that you have no choice but to seek help, you are ready to get help and start recovery. The alchoholic needs to feel the desperation of having no other choice but to seek help.

If my kids try to deal with such issues by themselves, but are unable to, and if the problem gets more unmanageable every day, they will eventually HAVE to come to the only people who can help them... their parents.

But if you give the kids a way out through school or PP, then they'll NEVER come to me. Why should they? The problem hasn't become unmanageable, and they don't feel the need to seek help.

So stop giving kids a way around their parents backs, and start making them feel the need to go to their parents with their sex-related problems. That's where these problems should be solved... not by school nurses and strangers from PP.

Elliot

The thing that worries me about this is the fact that teenagers don't always think things through in a logical fashion, there is another option to what you are suggesting, and that is suicide. Some kids would rather end their own lives than go to their parents with a problem, it happens everyday. Some of these kids really don't feel that they have any choice, they'd rather end their lives then risk the anger, disappointment etc. of their parents. You would obviously be there for your kids no matter what (for which you deserve a pat on the back) and I think that most of us would do the same, but are you sure that your kids know this, are you absolutely sure that if push came to shove they'd come to you? I'm just saying that things don't always go the way we think they will, you can have the best relationship with your kids, open communication and support and they can still make the wrong decisions. What if you take away every available option to them? They might just make the worst decision yet, to end their lives.

[ETWolverine]

Altweg,

You raise an excellent point regarding teen suicide.

But will the chances of a parent figuring out that their kids suffer from depression increase or decrease if we allow kids to avoid communicating with their parents? Will it be better or worse if we make kids and parents communicate?

Allowing kids to avoid speaking with their parents about major problems doesn't solve the issue of teen suicide, it just postpones it until the next major problem comes up. But making sure that kids HAVE to go to their parents for help increases the chances that a parent will spot a problem and help their kid through that depression.

And by the way, I speak as a sufferer of clinical depression who is on medication and in therapy for such. I know that when I was able to AVOID dealing with my daily problems, the depression actually got worse because I felt that NOBODY could ever understand where I was coming from. But when I was forced to CONFRONT my daily problems and get help for solving them, I was making a connection with my fellow human beings, and suddenly I realized that they understood me and cared for me. (Granted, the Zoloft helped too, but that was only part of the solution.)

By making kids CONNECT with their parents, chances are that they will come to understand that their parents care for them, will help them, and understand what they are going through, thus limiting the impact of their depression. But by giving them the opportunity to AVOID connecting with their parents, what you are doing is reinforcing the (usually unreal) idea that their parents wouldn't understand, don't care, and wouldn't want to help them. That results in an increase in the impact of depression.

So while I agree that teen suicide and teen depression is something to consider in this discussion, I believe that getting kids to connect with theior parents only helps the situation, by increasing the chances that parents will spot a problem before it happens, and by making the kid realize that he is cared for and loved by his parents.

Does this make any sense to you? I realize that some of it comes off as pop-psychology or armchair psychology, but this really does come under the heading of "systems theory" in psychology. There's a lot of literature to back up the idea of creating the healthy support system to counter depressive feelings. And also in support of addiction recovery, trauma recovery, and other areas of psychology. And it worked/is working for me in my own case.

Elliot

[NeedKarma]

But making sure that kids HAVE to go to their parents for help increases the chances that a parent will spot a problem and help their kid through that depression.

Altenweg's question referred to the "what if they don't" scenario; then where does a child turn to? There is no 100% foolproof way to make sure that the kids will go to their parents for those that feel shamed by their situation. I feel that a third party outfit that can help the children is a good last resort. Beats losing your child forever.

[speechlesstx]

So stop giving kids a way around their parents backs, and start making them feel the need to go to their parents with their sex-related problems. That's where these problems should be solved... not by school nurses and strangers from PP.

Bingo, just the words I was looking for.

[speechlesstx]

Altenweg's question referred to the "what if they don't" scenario; then where does a child turn to? There is no 100% foolproof way to make sure that the kids will go to their parents for those that feel shamed by their situation. I feel that a third party outfit that can help the children is a good last resort. Beats losing your child forever.

I have no problem with a third party solution but I think that party should be a mediator, make every effort first to reach a solution between parent and child. That may not be ideal but it beats the heck out of as Elliot so aptly put it, "giving kids a way around their parents backs." The group most mentioned, Planned Parenthood, makes it clear that when it comes right down to it they don't really care what the parents want. That's the problem.

[Synnen]

And yet... what if their parents really ARE more concerned about "how things look" or what it means to THEM than the welfare of their child?

I have a friend whose mother literally beat her, in hopes of making her miscarry, when she went to her to tell her that she was pregnant. The reason she told her mom? Because she needed parental permission for an abortion (she was 15 at the time, and had been raped by a guy she had been dating). She didn't feel her mother would believe her about the rape (and she didn't) and felt that an abortion was better than bringing her child up in the household with her mother.

What of those parents would would force an abortion or an adoption because "I'm not old enough to be a grandparent!" or "What will the neighbors think about how I'm bringing you up!"

If you take away other options than parents, you are also taking away a teen's right to choose her own options for an unplanned pregnancy.

And regardless what you think--there are ALWAYS ways to coerce your child to do what you want--like not signing permission for an abortion, or kicking you out, pregnant and alone with no support if you want to parent, or refusing to help in any way unless you sign something while you are still pregnant stating that you will give the child up for adoption. It may not be legal--but what teenager is going to NOT believe what their parents say when they hold all of the legal power over them.

Again--schools should not be dispensing medication, but I can't say that teens shouldn't NOT have the option to protect themselves either.

[NeedKarma]

The group most mentioned, Planned Parenthood, makes it clear that when it comes right down to it they don't really care what the parents want. That's the problem.

That's your opinion of course, but it's not fact.

Planned Parenthood Connecticut, Birth Control, Reproductive health, Women's Rights

COMMUNITY EDUCATION
PPC’s Education and Training Department staff are available to provide community education workshops to your parent or youth group. Our highly interactive, practical workshops are designed to maximize learning about sexuality and sexuality-related topics in a comfortable, positive environment. Our age-appropriate, medically accurate materials and resources reflect our cultural competence and commitment to meeting the needs of our audience. Workshops can range in time from an hour to multiple sessions to best meet your needs.

Planned Parenthood Southeastern Pennsylvania :: Educational Programs

Youth First is a comprehensive, multi-dimensional program designed in partnership with Philadelphia area middle and high schools to help young people make responsible decisions about their sexuality and health. Youth First consists of six specific components: long-term, comprehensive, age-specific, sexuality education; leadership development; social services/counseling; youth-friendly, accessible health services; professional development; and parental education and support.

Planned Parenthood Comprehensive Sex Ed Bills -

Involving Parents
For states facing opposition to comprehensive sex education, Planned Parenthood Federation of America has drafted the Parents Right to Know Act, state legislation asserting that parents have a right to be involved in their children's education and must be notified if their sexual health curriculum is lacking accurate information about preventing pregnancy and STIs.

[Alty]

Wow, we've gone full circle and still haven't managed to find a common ground on this issue. Let's face it, we could talk until we're blue in the face and never agree on every point. I understand and respect everyone's point of view, but I do think that some of you are wearing rose colored glasses with respect to teenagers. I had a good head on my shoulders as a teenager, I knew the difference between right and wrong and had a very close relationship with my parents. Although they didn't expect me to wait until I was married to have sex, they did hope that I'd wait until I was in a committed loving relationship with the man that I would eventually marry before I took that step, I respected their opinion and honestly had ever intention of going with their wishes. I didn't. I fell into Lust (for lack of a better word) with a boy that I barely knew and one night I decided to push everything my parents had told me aside and we had sex. He did use a condom and we were careful but I didn't love him and I did feel guilty about going against my parents wishes. We ended up having a sexual relationship for a few months and one time the condom broke and I ended up being two weeks late. I was in a panic and didn't feel that I could go to my loving parents with this problem. I called up the boy and we decided to go to a walk in clinic for a pregnancy test. Thankfully it turned out to be a false alarm, but had it not I would have been grateful for the services available to me. I don't believe that I would have had an abortion, that is not something I could ever choose, although I do believe in a woman's right to make that choice for herself. I know that my parents would have supported me, they would have stood behind me, even having known that I would have done anything possible for them not to find out. Yes, I would have had to tell them eventually, but I don't think that we should make it impossible for teens to find a way out by themselves. Yes, they are still kids in a lot of ways, no they are not always intelligent enough to make responsible decisions, but at least we should give them options if they have no where else to turn. If you take away PP etc then you will force all teens to go to there parents, not everyone is a good parent, not all parents will support their kids, your kids will be fine, what about the others?

[NeedKarma]

Some parents will even kids the teens out of the house. :(

[Alty]

Some parents will even kids the teens out of the house. :(

My point exactly, some kids really have nowhere to turn to.

[speechlesstx]

That's your opinion of course, but it's not fact.

Interesting requirement of the Involving Parents segment:

The draft legislation sets up a process for parents to review curricula and would require that parents be notified if their children are receiving abstinence-only sex education.

But would it require parental notification if their children were being indoctrinated otherwise? Anyway, I'll see your parental involvement clause and raise you a double standard:

Rep. John Fritchey yesterday proposed a bill in Illinois that expands the definition of parental notification for teens seeking an abortion. The Adolescent Health Care Safety Act (HB 317) would allow teens seeking an abortion to consult with a trusted adult other than a parent. State Attorney General Lisa Madigan on Friday requested that the injunction on the Parental Notification of Abortion Act be lifted, allowing the 12-year-old law to be enforced.

“We are disappointed that Attorney General Madigan has gone before the Federal Court to lift the injunction on this extremely old law. It is harmful and dangerous to the teens in our communities. We strongly support Rep. Fritchey’s legislation to allow another trusted adult—a priest or member of the clergy or other adult family member—to be notified when a teen is dealing with a difficult decision regarding her pregnancy,” said Karla Peterson, president and CEO of Planned Parenthood of East Central Illinois.

We're pleased that the Florida Supreme Court ruled five to one today that parental notification requirements abridge a minor's right to privacy, as explicitly protected by the Florida Constitution. Mandatory parental notification laws create the opposite of their proposed purpose by scaring young people away from seeking vital health care services. Erecting barriers to health care will increase the numbers of teen pregnancy and sexually transmitted infection and endanger the emotional and physical health of young women who seek abortion services.

Planned Parenthood encourages young women to involve their parents when making reproductive health decisions, but not every family is a model family. Teens most at risk for unintended pregnancy may be least able to turn to their parents.

Planned Parenthood and Parental Notification

Of all the abortion-related policy issues facing decision-makers in this country today, parental consent or notification before a minor may obtain an abortion is one of the most difficult. Planned Parenthood wholeheartedly encourages parental involvement when a young woman is faced with an unplanned pregnancy. In fact, in our health centers, 73% of our clients who are teenage girls already involve a parent.

Unfortunately, some young women cannot involve their parents because they come from homes where physical violence and emotional abuse are prevalent or because their pregnancies are the result of incest. In other cases, young women may not realize how supportive their parents might be. In some circumstances, teens facing a crisis pregnancy feel compelled to travel to another state where there is a less stringent parental involvement law or no such law at all, to avoid involving their parents and maintain their privacy. In the direst circumstances, some pregnant young women who fear telling their parents may feel so desperate that they resort to illegal or self-induced abortions that may result in death.

Recognizing this, Colorado legislators incorporated into the law the right for a minor to apply for a judicial bypass of the parental notification. This judicial bypass process can be intimidating and, most importantly, time-consuming. Delays at this crucial time will heighten both physical and emotional health risks, as well as substantially increase the cost of an abortion.

We know that these hurdles can overwhelm teens. Some young women cannot maneuver the legal procedures required or cannot attend hearings scheduled during school hours. Others do not connect with the system because they fear that the proceedings are not confidential or that people at the courthouse will recognize them. Many may experience denial or panic. They cannot imagine revealing intimate details of their personal lives in court. These teens will become overwhelmed with navigating the system alone.

We will not stand by and watch this happen. We have created a free and private statewide response system to the legal needs of minors who seek the judicial bypass option...

Through our toll-free hotline (1.866.277.2771) Colorado minors can learn more about the parental notification law and receive attorney referrals for representation. By organizing a network of attorneys, health care providers and crisis intervention specialists, Planned Parenthood of the Rocky Mountains can stay on top of the real-life issues facing these minors as they access their constitutional right to choose.

JDP is fighting on just one front of a growing state-by-state struggle against parental involvement legislation. Pro-choice advocates encourage healthy teen-parent communication. Such laws, they say, do not. They not only threaten the rights and safety of teen girls, but they also chip away at the reproductive freedom of all women. "Minors do have reproductive rights," says former JDP Executive Director Diana Philip, noting the supreme irony that minors can give birth without a parent's knowledge, but they can't get an abortion. "But they're an easy target. If you go after the population of people who don't have a vote and take away their rights first, it's easier to take away the rights of all. Roe v. Wade is deteriorating because of these measures."

Because Planned Parenthood is so worried about the health and safety of pregnant teens, we have proposed HB 317, the Adolescent Health Care Safety Act to replace the old 1995 law. This new bill will expand the definition of adult family member (pdf) who can waive the 48 hour notification so that a young woman can turn to an aunt, uncle, or adult sibling in addition to her parents or grandparents. Clergy are also included to receive notification. In addition, if a teen can not talk to any eligible adult family member or clergy, she can talk to a licensed health or mental health professional who will ensure she receives complete options information. Once she has received the required counseling from one of these professional, the notification requirement can be waived.

While parental notification laws might seem reasonable (pdf) at first glance, they actually place the safety of vulnerable teens in jeopardy. If a teen feels unable to talk to her parents about sensitive issues like abortion, or is reluctant to disappoint her parents by telling them she is pregnant, or comes from an abusive home, parental notification laws may delay or prevent her from obtaining safe medical care. Still worse, they can drive a frightened teen to risk her life and her health by resorting to dangerous, medically unsound means of ending her pregnancy.

Oh, and my favorite today, recruiting kids to promote their agenda...

NK, PP always tries to insert the PC phrases in their articles like "Planned Parenthood encourages young women to involve their parents" - BUT...

It's the 'buts' that are worrisome. They are actively fighting against parental consent/notification laws. They are actively engaged in passing legislation to "expand the definition of adult family member" to just about anyone. They do furnish information on consent/notification laws followed by telling kids what states they can go to to avoid the law and get an abortion anyway. All the while inserting their patented scare phrases like "they can drive a frightened teen to risk her life and her health by resorting to dangerous, medically unsound means of ending her pregnancy" and the gratuitous "we care about teens health" line.

The facts show exactly what I said, PP doesn't care what parents want. Oh they give their ideal family situation, but they make darn sure everyone knows the child's "right to privacy," "reproductive rights" or whatever term they choose at the moment trumps parental involvement. So if a teen "feels" unable to talk to her parents or is "reluctant to disappoint her parents" they shouldn't have to talk to their parents. I'm sorry, a kid's "reluctance" or "feeling" unable to talk to their parents is no excuse to exclude the parents.

[Synnen]

Out of curiosity, Speech--would PP informing you have made a difference in your daughter's health?

I had no problem with the pro-choice ideas they gave. Even teens have ideas on whether abortion should happen--or do you think that people turn 18 before they have any political ideas?

All of those things you posted seems extremely reasonable to me. Trying involve family in some way is GREAT--but there ARE young women out there for whom informing their family could have detrimental or fatal results. Period. For every worse-case scenario you could give me where a parent should have been involved from the start, I can give you one where the parent shouldn't EVER be informed.

What it comes down to is that there NEEDS to be someplace teens can go to get medical help when they can't go to their families, or FEEL like they can't. I respect that you don't care for Planned Parenthood and their "agenda"--but what would you put in its place?

[NeedKarma]

Sorry mate, I would rather see my child see PP rather than a clergy member, we all know what problems the clergy caused with children (hint: they have ruined more young lives that PP ever will). Regardless of that talking to a trusted family member is preferable.

I see that this is a personal issue with you because of an event with your daughter and thus no argument is good enough. I respectfully unsubscribe from this thread.

[speechlesstx]

what about the others?

Believe it or not I think we all agree there is the issue of "what about the others?" Of course they need options, I've never denied that - I just think there has to be a better option than PP. I've already shared my personal experience with why I feel that way, and the hell we went through thanks in part to them I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. Our lives were forever changed because our daughter made some poor choices, among them turning to PP instead of us, and besides the child she still mourns for their incompetent "health care" left her a physical disaster for what may be a needlessly short life. That's also what happens when a child takes the easy way out with strangers with an agenda rather than turn to the people that truly love them, because she "feels" she can't or is "reluctant" to talk to her parents.

[magprob]

Contraception in schools? For who? The teachers? Yes, by all means. When a teacher has sex with a student, they should use contraception. By all means.

[speechlesstx]

Out of curiosity, Speech--would PP informing you have made a difference in your daughter's health?

If you mean them informing me of their "care" of my daughter, heck yeah it would have made a difference. It's a lot better to treat HIV early before it turns to AIDS, your CD4 count gets down below 20, your kidneys fail and you acquire PCP and other opportunistic diseases.

but there ARE young women out there for whom informing their family could have detrimental or fatal results. Period.

I've never denied that. I just think there are far more good parents than bad parents and they will end up paying the price for this movement to bypass parental consent.

What it comes down to is that there NEEDS to be someplace teens can go to get medical help when they can't go to their families, or FEEL like they can't. I respect that you don't care for Planned Parenthood and their "agenda"--but what would you put in its place?

Good question, I don't know, but I would think everyone would be happy with a center without an agenda other than doing what's absolutely best for all, that makes every effort to include the parents in any decisions for minor children. Apparently that's not a crisis pregnancy center and it darn sure ain't PP.

[speechlesstx]

Sorry mate, I would rather see my child see PP rather than a clergy member, we all know what problems the clergy caused with children (hint: they have ruined more young lives that PP ever will). Regardless of that talking to a trusted family member is preferable.

I see that this is a personal issue with you because of an event with your daughter and thus no argument is good enough. I respectfully unsubscribe from this thread.

Hey, if you look at my last response to you it's PP that wants to make clergy a substitute family member, not me. And I do think there is a middle ground, I haven't called for a crisis pregnancy center as the alternative but without fail every advocate on this subject has listed PP as the place to turn to. Offer me something else...

[Alty]

Believe it or not I think we all agree there is the issue of "what about the others?" Of course they need options, I've never denied that - I just think there has to be a better option than PP. I've already shared my personal experience with why I feel that way, and the hell we went through thanks in part to them I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. Our lives were forever changed because our daughter made some poor choices, among them turning to PP instead of us, and besides the child she still mourns for their incompetent "health care" left her a physical disaster for what may be a needlessly short life. That's also what happens when a child takes the easy way out with strangers with an agenda rather than turn to the people that truly love them, because she "feels" she can't or is "reluctant" to talk to her parents.

I am truly sorry that you and your daughter had to go through this. I think that I've mentioned before that I don't live in the US, I live in Canada. Things are very different here, and I speak from that experience. I will risk being politically incorrect and tell you that you are in my prayers. I now understand why you feel the way you do. You obviously feel very strongly about this, maybe the experiences you had is a hint that you were meant to make things change for the better. I don't know what that would entail, I wish I had the answers, I only have opinions based of the things I've gone through and the things I've seen other people go through. Judging by all the different opinions here, I would venture to say that we will never find a solution that will make everyone happy and safe. Best of luck to you.

[speechlesstx]

I am truly sorry that you and your daughter had to go through this. I think that I've mentioned before that I don't live in the US, I live in Canada. Things are very different here, and I speak from that experience. I will risk being politically incorrect and tell you that you are in my prayers. I now understand why you feel the way you do. You obviously feel very strongly about this, maybe the experiences you had is a hint that you were meant to make things change for the better. I don't know what that would entail, I wish I had the answers, I only have opinions based of the things I've gone through and the things I've seen other people go through. Judging by all the different opinions here, I would venture to say that we will never find a solution that will make everyone happy and safe. Best of luck to you.

No need to feel bad for me but prayers are always welcome on this end. Besides, I think I've risked being a little politically incorrect here, lol :)

You hit the key for why I speak as I do, though, I feel if one person avoids the mess we've experienced all my ranting will have been worth it. But when it gets down to it I reluctantly agree that "we will never find a solution that will make everyone happy and safe."

Steve

[godsbabygirl267]

I think school nurses should be able to sell preventatives to students because if one is already planning to have sex, then they should at least be able to prevent getting pregnant or impregnating a girl.