[speechlesstx]

I think we can both agree there are extremists on both sides of the fence (like oh so many other things....). There are the pro-lifers who assault or murder doctors, or assault women who are going into a clinic. There are pro-choicers who take a cavalier attitude to abortion, and certainly those who lie to women about the developmental phase the fetus is in (though I've seen pro-lifers exaggerate this as well).

I would hope you can tell by now I don't care for extremists on either side (although I'm sure some here think I'm the extremist, lol). That's part of the problem though, there seems to be no room for rational debate. And I had much more to say but decided to just leave it at that :)

[Synnen]

It's all spin-on BOTH sides.

"Pro-choice" is now "murdering babies". Adoption is "better than killing your baby". People getting abortions are always made out to be ignorant murderers who don't give a damn about anyone but themselves, rather than scared young women who made a very hard choice when their birth control failed.

(Just wanted to throw the other side out there)

I don't believe that ANYONE but a parent should decide what sort of medical treatment a minor child should get.

But... at the same time... there are parents out there who are NOT available to their children. Where should THEY go? We've been telling kids for years that if they can't talk to their parents about something, they should go to their teacher, their counselor, their pastor/priest when they need help.

Well, unfortunately, talking about sex with a teen can get those people into trouble, too--all it takes is one person taking the wrong spin on it, and all of a sudden there are child abuse and pedophilia charges--who'd want to take the chance?

IMO--start educating parents. Make THEM take a sex ed course when their kids reach 12-13 years old. If the PARENT doesn't show up for the class, then the kid goes to a comprehensive sex ed class, covering every subject under the sexual sun. Have several dates available--but put it on the PARENT'S shoulders to teach their kids so that we can stop playing the blame game about the whole thing.

[charlotte234s]

I agree J_9.

And I believe scientific facts over pictures that may or may not even be properly labele,d they could be a fetus much older made to be a 20 week fetus by the anti-abortion fleet.

18-Year-Old Hides Pregnancy, Then Allegedly Throws Newborn Down Trash Chute in Florida While on Vacation - Associated Content

Here's a story about a girl who threw her newborn down a trash chute.

WZTV FOX 17/Nashville

Here's the same basic story except it's a Nashville girl. I could find probably a ton more if you'd like.


And you don't have a right to tell people what to do, no one forces you to have an abortion, why do you want to tell people they can't? It's just not anyone's place to tell other people what they can and can't do with their lives.

And for one, I have an aunt who chose not to have an abortion and her and her son lived in squalor for years afterwards, she did not even have the money to pay for repairing his severely cleft lip, so I know that young, uneducated, scared, poor, single mothers will be more miserable and broke if they are forced to have a child. She lived with her parents who FORCED her to have the baby, after they told her that birth control was for sluts just a year before. She was 17.

[ETWolverine]

I'd rather see a teenager with a condom in their pocket that a baby in their arms.

It doesn't do any good in their POCKET.

And wouldn't you prefer it if they didn't need that condom in the first place?

Elliot

[NeedKarma]

And wouldn't you prefer it if they didn't need that condom in the first place?

Sure but I'm a realist.

[Alty]

It doesn't do any good in their POCKET.

And wouldn't you prefer it if they didn't need that condom in the first place?

Elliot

The original question was asking about contraceptives in schools, saying that I'd rather see a condom in their pocket implied that I agree to allowing children access to contraception. Of course they can't leave it in their pocket if it's to work, that's rather obvious (or so I thought). So to make it very clear "I would rather they put a condom on their penis (or their partners penis) before sexual contact and ejaculation." Is that accurate enough?

As to your other question, yes, I would rather they didn't need a condom in the first place, but I'd rather they be prepared than end up with an unwanted pregnancy. It would be a wonderful world indeed if teenagers actually listened to their parents and waited to have sex, but they don't, they never have, I know I didn't, did you?

Sorry if I sound condescending but I feel very strongly about this issue as do all of you. I have a feeling that we're all just going to have to agree to disagree and raise our children according to our beliefs and hope for the best. I'm just trying to be realistic about this issue.

[ETWolverine]

Here's a twist on things.

For all those who believe that teens are old enough (physically and emotionally) to make decisions about sex, and therefore should be able to get condoms, BC and abortions at will without parental consent... would you guys have a problem with a 14 year old girl having sex with a 35 year old guy?

If you have a problem with it, why? After all, they're old enough to decide for themselves without parental concent. What's the difference between a 14 year old having sex with another teenager and having sex with an adult? If they are old enough to decide, then they are old enough to decide.

And if you don't have a problem with it, why not? Do you feel that teens having sex with adults is okay? Do you feel that there's no such thing as statutory rape?

You see, the issue here is whether these kids have the capacity to make these life-and-death decisions without the consent of a parent. Either they do or they don't. You can't have it both ways. If they are mature enough to make decisions on abortion, BC, condoms and having sex with other teens, then they are mature enough to make those decisions vis-à-vis adults as well. In that case, we need to stop prosecuting adults for statutory rape in cases of consenting sex with a minor.

But if you feel that teens are not mature enough to make those decisions regarding sex with adults, then why do we assume that because they are having sex with other teens its different and they are mature enough for that? To me, there doesn't seem to be any real difference. The decision-making process is the same, and if they are too immature for one, then they should be too immature for the other.

And if they are not mature enough, then PP should not be advocating abortions (a medical procedure) without parental consent, and schools should not be pushing condoms and BC (medication) without parental permission. And schools should not be teaching kids how to have sex... safely or otherwise. They should be teaching kids NOT to have sex.

Seems simple to me.

Elliot

[speechlesstx]

And I believe scientific facts over pictures that may or may not even be properly labele,d they could be a fetus much older made to be a 20 week fetus by the anti-abortion fleet.

Did I not mention where those pictures were from? That's right I did, the Texas State Department of Health... precisely to preempt the improperly labeled photos from "the anti-abortion fleet" argument. Why on earth would the State of Texas use improperly labeled pictures? State of Texas not good enough?

10 weeks courtesy of National Geographic:


14 weeks courtesy The Science Museum in London:


24 weeks courtesy of the University of California, San Francisco:


Will those sources do?

18-Year-Old Hides Pregnancy, Then Allegedly Throws Newborn Down Trash Chute in Florida While on Vacation - Associated Content

Here's a story about a girl who threw her newborn down a trash chute.

WZTV FOX 17/Nashville

Here's the same basic story except it's a Nashville girl. I could find probably a ton more if you'd like.

An example from June and one from October is a long way from the claim that I should see it in the news happening "every day."

And you don't have a right to tell people what to do, no one forces you to have an abortion, why do you want to tell people they can't? It's just not anyone's place to tell other people what they can and can't do with their lives.

Haven't we been here before? I said "I have every right to express my opinion just as you do," I don't recall telling anyone they can't have an abortion. I don't recall even asking for a ban on abortions. I'd appreciate it very much if you would point out where I am telling people what they can or can't do, where I'm forcing my will on anyone. If you can find it I'll apologize, otherwise I think it would be appropriate to stop painting that false impression of me. This is only a discussion.

And for one, I have an aunt who chose not to have an abortion and her and her son lived in squalor for years afterwards, she did not even have the money to pay for repairing his severely cleft lip, so I know that young, uneducated, scared, poor, single mothers will be more miserable and broke if they are forced to have a child. She lived with her parents who FORCED her to have the baby, after they told her that birth control was for sluts just a year before. She was 17.

I'm sorry for your aunt and her son's years of squalor, how are they doing now? Does she love her son? Do you love your cousin? Does she regret his life? Should she tell him he should have been aborted, that he didn't deserve a chance to live, laugh, love and be loved?

How does that one example mean you "know that young, uneducated, scared, poor, single mothers will be more miserable and broke if they are forced to have a child?" If my daughter had only come to us and allowed us to help her through her pregnancy I guarantee we would have done everything in our power to make sure they both had anything they needed. I've sat and mourned with friends devastated by the decision to have an abortion 20 years after the fact. I've watched a loving, childless couple struggle, jump through all the hoops and spend a fortune to adopt a child only to be disappointed by the court when it gave him back to his drug addicted mother - and I've been with them through the joy of finally holding an adopted newborn of their own thanks to a courageous teen mother that gave this child a chance.

To condemn a child on the assumption of a miserable and broke life is surrender. It shows an astounding lack of faith in people to rise above circumstances and turn a potentially difficult situation into a triumphant victory. Such cynicism is really sad.

[tomder55]

Great point Elliot. How do most states deal with any male having sex with an underaged girl ?

[Alty]

[QUOTE=speechlesstx]Alt, I watch the news every day, read the paper every day, get glimpses of the news on the internet every day... I cannot recall the last time I heard or read a story about some teenager "tossing it in a trash can or leaving it on the bathroom floor of a public restroom." Can you point those out for me please?


Watch Nancy Grace, at least once a week there are newborns being left for dead by teenage mothers that just weren't ready for motherhood. The last one was a girl that was heavily into sports, she left the baby in a trash can in her school, she was arrested for killing her infant. Before that there was a newborn found in the public bathroom of a hospital, that baby was lucky, it lived. The mother disappeared, she left a note with her infant saying that she fed the baby. I could write a book about the number of teenagers that end up committing this desperate act. Most of them hide their pregnancies from their families and friends by binding their growing bellies. I realize that this is the extreme end of teenage pregnancies, but it happens often enough that it should be a very big concern.

I myself would never get an abortion, it's something that I cannot do because to me it's a baby as soon as I find out I'm pregnant (I have two children). But that doesn't mean that you should take that choice away from someone else. I was 27 years old when I had my first child, married for 3 years, financially stable etc. etc. If I had been 17 years old or even younger it would have been very difficult. Try and put yourself in the shoes of these young girls, maybe you'll see a different side of this issue.:)

[NeedKarma]

great point Elliot. How do most states deal with any male having sex with an underaged girl ?

And what does that have to do with contraception in schools? Are you implying that if contraception were not available in schools then we would have no incidences of underage girls having sex with older men?

[ETWolverine]

And what does that have to do with contraception in schools? Are you implying that if contraception were not available in schools then we would have no incidences of underage girls having sex with older men?

Read my post #87.

My point is that if a child has the wherewithal to make decisions about sex vis-à-vis condoms, BC and abortions, then that same child should be able to make decisions about sex with adults. In which case there is no such thing as statutory rape.

But if a child does not have the capacity to make decisions about sex with adults, then why do we say that they have the capacity to make decisions about sex with teens, abortions, condoms and birth control.

You can't have it both ways. Either they are able to decide, or they are not. Which is it?

If they are able to decide, then we can expect to see adults having consentual sex with kids without prosecuting the adults for statutory rape. And if they are unable to decide, then schools and PP have no right to be giving these kids abortions and condoms and birth control pills without parental consent.

Which way do you go, NK?

THAT is my point.

Elliot

[NeedKarma]

Sorry mate, those incidences of underage girls having sex with older men is not a situation cured by the teachings of abstinence or by the teachings of contraception (although if they know about conttraception then pregnancy and STD rates for those girls would be lower). Those girls obviously have absent parenting and would have done what they did regardless of what they are being taught in school. People need to take responsibility for their kids and stop making the school liable for everything.

Elliot, do you talk to your kids? Do you know their friends and what they do online?

[Alty]

Here's a twist on things.

For all those who believe that teens are old enough (physically and emotionally) to make decisions about sex, and therefore should be able to get condoms, BC and abortions at will without parental consent... would you guys have a problem with a 14 year old girl having sex with a 35 year old guy?

If you have a problem with it, why? After all, they're old enough to decide for themselves without parental concent. What's the difference between a 14 year old having sex with another teenager and having sex with an adult? If they are old enough to decide, then they are old enough to decide.

And if you don't have a problem with it, why not? Do you feel that teens having sex with adults is okay? Do you feel that there's no such thing as statutory rape?

You see, the issue here is whether these kids have the capacity to make these life-and-death decisions without the consent of a parent. Either they do or they don't. You can't have it both ways. If they are mature enough to make decisions on abortion, BC, condoms and having sex with other teens, then they are mature enough to make those decisions vis-a-vis adults as well. In that case, we need to stop prosecuting adults for statutory rape in cases of consenting sex with a minor.

But if you feel that teens are not mature enough to make those decisions regarding sex with adults, then why do we assume that because they are having sex with other teens its different and they are mature enough for that? To me, there doesn't seem to be any real difference. The decision-making process is the same, and if they are too immature for one, then they should be too immature for the other.

And if they are not mature enough, then PP should not be advocating abortions (a medical procedure) without parental consent, and schools should not be pushing condoms and BC (medication) without parental permission. And schools should not be teaching kids how to have sex... safely or otherwise. They should be teaching kids NOT to have sex.

Seems simple to me.

Elliot

Wow, that's a twisted view of things. I live in Canada, the age here for sexual consent is 16 years old, I don't know what it is were you live. No I don't believe that teens should be having sex with 35 year old pedophiles (because that's what they are) and yes I believe that those "adults" should be prosecuted for statutory rape. Teenagers aren't adults, when it comes to sex, drugs etc. they are very naïve and should be told all the risks involved i.e. pregnancy, std's etc." I believe in sex ed, not to teach them how to have sex but to teach them about sex, especially safe sex (although there is no such thing).

I find this debate very interesting, you seem to think that I want teenagers to have sex, I don't. What I am trying to say is that short of locking them in a convent or putting on a chastity belt we can't stop them from doing this. You can talk to them about being abstinent until you're blue in the face, but you can't be with them 24/7 and stuff happens. Teens are notorious for acting before thinking, it's part of being a teen. We all learned lessons from mistakes we made as teens, do you want the lesson to be parenthood or worse, aids, because you were unwilling to talk to your kids about contraception. Keeping the lines of communication open with your teens is very important. Tell them about contraception but also tell them that waiting until they're ready is the way to go.

I hope all this makes sense, I'm typing extremely fast trying to get all of my thoughts out. Having said that I'd like to remind everyone that this is a very touchy subject (obviously) and that we all have very different opinions on this subject. Everyone has valid points but it's hard to see someone else's point of view when you feel so passionately about a subject. Please keep that in mind, because I realize that I've been and am continuing to be (for lack of a better term) snarky with some of you. I do feel passionately about this issue, and even though I may not sound like it I do respect and value all of your opinions, please try to respect mine too.

[jillianleab]

And if they are not mature enough, then PP should not be advocating abortions (a medical procedure) without parental consent, and schools should not be pushing condoms and BC (medication) without parental permission. And schools should not be teaching kids how to have sex... safely or otherwise. They should be teaching kids NOT to have sex.

Some good points there, ETW.

I asked earlier and I think my questions got lost in the mix - does anyone know the legal age for informed medical consent in the US? The information I got in a quick web search was unclear. I THINK it's 16, and if it is, PP providing abortions without parental consent is part of the law (to individuals over 16, that is) and if someone doesn't agree with that, they should fight the LAW, not PP. Do they provide abortions to individuals under 16 without consent? I'm not sure, but if they are, and it violates the law, well, something should be done about that.

ETW, regarding condoms being available in schools; you said the schools should not be pushing condoms without parental permission - does this mean you think condoms should only be sold to those over 18 (or 16, or whatever)? I'm just trying to clarify, honestly. Because if they can be sold to anyone of any age, what's the difference if they get them at school, from PP, the grocery store, 7-11, or the gas station bathroom? I agree that the pill should not be handed out without parental consent, but this clinic got around that by having parents sign a blanket consent form, so technically, they have consent. As underhanded and loop-holish (is that a word?) as that is, they do have consent. That must be how they've gotten around the legality of it all...

[speechlesstx]

Seems simple to me.

Seems simple to me, too Elliot... even obvious.

[speechlesstx]

I find this debate very interesting, you seem to think that I want teenagers to have sex, I don't. What I am trying to say is that short of locking them in a convent or putting on a chastity belt we can't stop them from doing this. You can talk to them about being abstinent until you're blue in the face, but you can't be with them 24/7 and stuff happens. Teens are notorious for acting before thinking, it's part of being a teen. We all learned lessons from mistakes we made as teens, do you want the lesson to be parenthood or worse, aids, because you were unwilling to talk to your kids about contraception. Keeping the lines of communication open with your teens is very important. Tell them about contraception but also tell them that waiting until they're ready is the way to go.

I think we all agree teens are bound to make poor decisions and we can't lock them up to protect them from themselves, and that parents need to involved in their kids' lives. What I disagree with is the expanding role of the state as the parent - the erosion of parental rights.

On that note, Planned parenthood is the main proponent of sex education in schools and they will not tolerate any that does not follow their ideology. PP is a chief advocate of child rights, i.e. bypassing parental authority and values on issues such as BC, abortion and sex education. In essence, they don't think parents should have a say if their minor child wants to have sex, get BC or have an abortion, and if anyone - pro-life, pro-choice, pro-sex ed or not - cares about having a say in raising their children they should be appalled at the power grabs taking place. If anything this should be a bipartisan effort to make sure parents are still the parents and that kids can just be kids again.

Please keep that in mind, because I realize that I've been and am continuing to be (for lack of a better term) snarky with some of you. I do feel passionately about this issue, and even though I may not sound like it I do respect and value all of your opinions, please try to respect mine too.

Duly noted and appreciated. And, I like to get a little snarky, too :)

[ETWolverine]

NK,

Sorry mate, those incidences of underage girls having sex with older men is not a situation cured by the teachings of abstinence or by the teachings of contraception (although if they know about conttraception then pregnancy and STD rates for those girls would be lower). Those girls obviously have absent parenting and would have done what they did regardless of what they are being taught in school. People need to take responsibility for their kids and stop making the school liable for everything.

AHHHH, so now we are getting to the real cause of the problem... parental absenteeism. Parents not teaching their kids not to have sex. We are in agreement on this point.

So, do you think we should solve this point by making schools and PP more responsible, or by making the parents live up to their responsibilities?

And again, the point is not about kids having sex with adults, NK. The point is about whether kids have the capacity to DECIDE.

Elliot, do you talk to your kids? Do you know their friends and what they do online?

My kids are 7 and 5, so it's really a moot point right now. But yes, I know what my kids are doing, who they do it with, and where they are. And I intend to continue that trend until they are adults capable of making their own decisions. We also don't have cable TV in the house, and only my wife's computer has internet access, and that is monitored by her.

Furthermore, because all the kids my children are in school (Yeshiva) with have the same religious/moral values, and because those religious values are stressed in both the home and the school, the incidence of teen sex is minimal, and the incidence of teem pregnancy is virtually nil. I think the last known case of unmarried teen pregnancy in the Orthodox Jewish community took place about 20 years ago, and was the talk of the entire religious Jewish community world-wide. It hasn't happened since. There is a stigma attached to teen sex and teen pregnancy in yeshivas that doesn't exist in most of the rest of American society.

So the fact is that if schools and parents work together to teach a moral value system in which abstinence is the norm, in which pre-marital sex is stigmatized, and in which teen pregnancy is a complete no-no, the result is that kids don't have sex with each other. No condoms or birth control are needed, no abortions are required and there is no fear of STDs. And given the number of kids that Orthodox Jewish families have, you can't say that they are uneducated in sex.

Abstinence training can and does work.

Altenweg

Teenagers aren't adults, when it comes to sex, drugs etc. they are very naïve and should be told all the risks involved i.e. pregnancy, std's etc." I believe in sex ed, not to teach them how to have sex but to teach them about sex, especially safe sex (although there is no such thing).

Exactly. They do not have the capacity to make such decisions. They are babies.

So why are we allowing them to get BC and have abortions without parental concent?

THAT is the entire thrust of my argument, Altenweg.

You can talk to them about being abstinent until you're blue in the face, but you can't be with them 24/7 and stuff happens.

Not where I come from. See above. Stuff doesn't just happen. It only happens if parents don't do their jobs right or expect the school to do their jobs for them. And it would happen a lot less if both the parents and the schools were giving the same message, that kids should not be having sex. Period. No "but ifs", no "here's what to do if..." Just DON'T DO IT.

I hope all this makes sense, I'm typing extremely fast trying to get all of my thoughts out.

That's okay. I'm a speed reader. :cool:

I do feel passionately about this issue, and even though I may not sound like it I do respect and value all of your opinions, please try to respect mine too.

I do respect your opinion, Altenweg. And I must say that you state your opinion very well. I disagree with it, which is why I give my opposing arguments. But I respect it, and your right to have it. I would never say that you don't have the right to that opinion, and I don't think I have intimated such a thing here. If I did, or if something I have said is taken that way, please accept my apology.

Elliot

[speechlesstx]

I asked earlier and I think my questions got lost in the mix - does anyone know the legal age for informed medical consent in the US? The information I got in a quick web search was unclear. I THINK it's 16, and if it is, PP providing abortions without parental consent is part of the law (to individuals over 16, that is) and if someone doesn't agree with that, they should fight the LAW, not PP. Do they provide abortions to individuals under 16 without consent? I'm not sure, but if they are, and it violates the law, well, something should be done about that.

Whether they are now or not is unclear I believe, but they have shown their willingness to do so in the past and they make no bones about fighting for the right to minor abortion without parental consent. There is a PP clinic in Kansas under Grand Jury investigation for over 100 various violations but I'm going to withhold comment on that until it goes through the system.

Loop-holish, I like it. Much better than Webster's newest addition, w00t. And yes, that's how many get by with this type of thing, a blanket consent. If a kid goes in for a snotty nose and gets treated he can then go in and get BC.

Oh, and I imagine state laws vary on consent.

[charlotte234s]

[On that note, Planned parenthood is the main proponent of sex education in schools and they will not tolerate any that does not follow their ideology. PP is a chief advocate of child rights, i.e. bypassing parental authority and values on issues such as BC, abortion and sex education. In essence, they don't think parents should have a say if their minor child wants to have sex, get BC or have an abortion, and if anyone - pro-life, pro-choice, pro-sex ed or not - cares about having a say in raising their children they should be appalled at the power grabs taking place. If anything this should be a bipartisan effort to make sure parents are still the parents and that kids can just be kids again.

Eh, if the parent hadn't failed already, the child wouldn't be bothering to go to PP for BC, Abortion, etc.