[necoutis]

Hey gang,

First off this is a cool website, and this is my first time using it, so thanks for all responses!

My girlfriend is a student at a major publicly-funded art college in the US. The college provides studio space to students in a large building. For a large part of the school year, students come and go as they please, with supervision by campus security. Students frequently bring laptop PCs and equipment to their studio spaces to do work.

There has been, to my knowledge, an ongoing problem with theft of big-ticket items (electronics, especially) in this environment. My girlfriend's laptop was recently stolen.

Here's my question: If the laptop is not recovered, does she have a lawsuit against them for failing to provide a secure environment? The building lacks security cameras, and the attitude of campus security has been lax, and disappointing at best. There is an individual that was seen acting suspiciously in the area at the time of this incident, and this individual is also known to have sold a laptop earlier in the year that he claimed "he bought from the school lost and found."

It's only been 24 hours since the laptop went missing, and we're still hoping it will be recovered data intact. I want to cover this as a contingency should that not be the case.

Thanks for any response,
Nicholas

[N0help4u]

It would most likely depend on the circumstances of how it was stolen because they could say that it was due to her negligence and it would be her word against theirs. She would have to prove that it was a direct result of lack of security ---like a broken lock on her dorm room.

[Fr_Chuck]

No of course she has no law suit, the owner of anything is liable to provide proper security for their own items, the school is no more liable than a city is for people breaking into someone's home.

Next this is common on all colleges, and sadly those people walking down the public sidewalk on a college cample can not be stopped if the campus is not a closed campus. Which most are not.

Now as noted if there as a bad lock which was reported and not fixed then the school may have some liablity

Also all colleges that I know of first of the year have programs warning students about safety.

[shygrneyzs]

No, the college is not liable. Your girlfriend left the laptop unsupervised and it was taken. That is her responsibility. Now if the college had security cameras, one would hope that there could be some kind of clue as to who took it. Neither college I attended had security cameras in the 1970's and 1980's and they still do not.

You cannot really say that this suspicious looking person took it either - no proof. Also, for all you know, he did buy that laptop from the college lost and found. If you accuse, you got to have proof.

[necoutis]

First of all the laptop wasn't completely unattended, it was in an open room of student studio spaces. There were other students around, and we have at least one witness to this suspicious student hovering around her property and sitting at her desk.

Also we have checked the school's records and they did not have a laptop in their lost and found during the time that he sold a laptop claiming that as the source. His story doesn't check out, and makes him look more suspicious.

He also is a sculpture student, and was hanging around in graphic designers' studio space at 2am when he had no business there, looking suspicious and sitting at my girlfriend's desk right around the time her property went missing.

We have lots of circumstantial evidence, multiple witnesses to attest to suspicious behavior &c.

The school does not have surveillance equipment setup in this building, nor does their security check identities of everyone coming and going from this building.

[Emland]

She left her laptop in a common room and you are surprised it was stolen? The other people are not responsible for looking out for her property - she is.

It is an expensive lesson. I hope she learns from it.

[necoutis]

Almost any other facility would be responsible for the security of its premises in a comparable situation. Why do schools get a free pass? We have all the circumstantial evidence in the world, but with the lack of the school providing surveillance cameras and keeping tabs on who is in the building at what time, we are unable to come up with non-circumstantial evidence.

All I'm saying is shouldn't the school be at fault for facilitating an environment conducive to theft? She was not with the laptop but it was not unattended.

I'm aware that she is responsible for looking out for her property, which is why we have gone to the lengths that we have to retrieve it. The school is not being cooperative and would not have reported an active thief among its students to the police if she had not taken it to the police on her own. In my mind, this makes the school look like it is if not actively facilitating theft and criminal enterprise (dealing of stolen goods potentially to other students) is at least passively permitting it by not providing security cameras etc.

If this were a building belonging to a private enterprise, you bet there would be a lawsuit.

[Emland]

If someone left their personal property in our work lunch area and it was stolen, no court is going to say that the company is responsible for it.

Whomever she left in charge of her laptop is responsible for it. If she left it in a room full of people thinking they would look out for her best interests, she was just proven wrong.

[shygrneyzs]

Circumstantial evidence does not mean that this "suspicious" guy did the deed. For all you and your girlfriend know, someone else in that room could have taken the laptop. I know what you are saying about this guy but until you have the absolute evidence, I would not go around saying he did it. He could turn around and sue you for defamation of character.

[froggy7]

Almost any other facility would be responsible for the security of its premises in a comparable situation. Why do schools get a free pass? We have all the circumstantial evidence in the world, but with the lack of the school providing surveillance cameras and keeping tabs on who is in the building at what time, we are unable to come up with non-circumstantial evidence.

[stuff snipped]

If this were a building belonging to a private enterprise, you bet there would be a lawsuit.

Umm... most likely, no, there wouldn't be. If it is something like a business, they own the equipment. And I have worked at some companies that have sent around an e-mail saying that items had been stolen from lockers/purses/cars, and to be sure to secure your belongings, but that's about the extent that companies will go in these situations.

And spots like stores, restaurants, etc. generally have a sign posted somewhere saying that they are not liable for damages or losses that occur to patron's property while on their premises.

[Fr_Chuck]

This just shows a total lack of people taking personal responsibility, they think someone else should be held responsible for their lack of personal care. If anyone else needs to be held responsible, it would be the friends sharing the common area that let the laptop go, why were they not watching it , oh yeah it was not there's.

And of course no other place would be liable. If you went to mcdonalds and left it on the table and went to the counter, and it disappeared, they would laugh at you if you thought they would pay. If you were at work, and left it laying at your work station, it is your problem, not where you work, I can't believe anyone would think the school should pay, that is just silly. But after working some years at GA Tech, I know about 1 or more lap tops a week disappear, from being left on the buss, to being left in a class room, leaving a dorm door open and more.
Even if they left it on the front seat of the car, they should know better and have put it in the trunk

[necoutis]

Wow you guys are unhelpful. I'm trying to get the college to change their policy of not providing an environment absolutely conducive to theft. In most buildings where business of this nature would occur, I would assume a reasonable expectation of security. That is at the very least the school ought to know who is in the building at a given time.

In this building there is no such thing. There are no security cameras in this entire building, which houses the school administration, business offices, café, classrooms, mail room, av labs. This is a city building essentially housing the entire college campus within a 13-story building. I repeat, this entire enterprise is unsecured. No cameras in the elevators, no sign-in at the security desk upon entry and exit. That is to me a case of negligence or failure to secure the property they are responsible for protecting. The school's failure to do this amounts to the school negligently facilitating a criminal enterprise within its premises.

I am asked to provide absolute evidence that he committed the crime. The evidence is all over the CC videotapes from that hour of the thief walking into the building empty-handed, taking the elevator upstairs to the floor my girlfriend occupies. Taking her laptop, and then hopping on the elevator back down to the ground floor with a bagful of stolen property.

Except whoops... this college does not provide basic security apparatus for solving crimes committed on its property and again, in effect facilitates criminal enterprise by negligence in its failure to do so.

Blaming the victim for not sufficiently defending their property against a predator is a really really sick way to think of law and order. The right tack is to provide the right way to catch the one who is to blame - the thief.

And you say he can sue me for defamation of character? How? I haven't named him. I don't even know his name, and I'm sure as hell not defaming his character by describing the actions of an unnamed individual at an unnamed institution.

[shygrneyzs]

But I bet you are sure telling this at the school and to anyone in real life that will listen. Someone might know him and tell him. Now if he did take this laptop, then he should be investigated and the rest that goes with that.

It is always easier to blame someone or something else than take responsibility for one's own actions. That has become the American Way.

Take your anger and channel it into something prodcutive. AS in meeting with the college dean and/or president with a signed petition from the students calling for tighter security on the campus sites.

[N0help4u]

The only thing you can do to get them to do what you are suggesting is get petitions signed that say you want security cameras and secured doors with a guards desk... then tuition would most likely go up.

[Emland]

Even if the school did put in security cameras, they would be for the benefit of the school, not for your personal property safety. I went to Disneyworld last summer and carelessly put down my digital camera. Within 2 minutes I realized what I had done and returned to the shop. Yep, it was gone. Was it the clerks fault who was standing 1 foot away? No. Was it MGM's fault that they allowed a thief in? No. Should I have screamed that they pull their security tapes and locate the thief? NO I was careless and it was my fault.

You might think a US warship is the safest place to be. Nope. My husband had a gold chain taken off him while he slept! There are thieves everywhere. Heck, I even lost a favorite casserole dish at a church potluck once.

YOU are responsible for YOUR property. If the school is so horrible, find one with better security.

[excon]

She was not with the laptop but it was not unattended.

Hello n:

Who was attending it? Sue THEM. This is a public area. EVEN if there was a guard watching the ROOM, how would the guard know that somebody, who wasn't supposed to, picked up the computer?

Tell me, if you left your luggage alone at the airport, which is very well "attended", and it disappeared, would you think the airport is responsible?? I don't think you would.

excon

[necoutis]

"Even if the school did put in security cameras, they would be for the benefit of the school, not for your personal property safety. I went to Disneyworld last summer and carelessly put down my digital camera. Within 2 minutes I realized what I had done and returned to the shop. Yep, it was gone. Was it the clerks fault who was standing 1 foot away? No. Was it MGM's fault that they allowed a thief in? No. Should I have screamed that they pull their security tapes and locate the thief? NO I was careless and it was my fault."

No, it was the thief's *fault* that property was stolen. If they had a camera that pointed in that direction, it wouldn't have been unreasonable to ask to have seen the tape.

"It is always easier to blame someone or something else than take responsibility for one's own actions. That has become the American Way.

Take your anger and channel it into something prodcutive. AS in meeting with the college dean and/or president with a signed petition from the students calling for tighter security on the campus sites."

I am not blaming the school per se for theft - I am saying simply that they haven't allowed for the proper prosecution of theft. It's one thing that the property was stolen. It's another entirely that they have no security tapes to review or logs of who is in the building to provide enough hard evidence to get a warrant to search the suspect's property. I want the school to change their policy. I'm not a student though, I'm a concerned friend of the victim trying to help motivate her to solve the crime.

You know I'm all for personal responsibility and accountability, and that applies to this case as well. Blaming the victim for the crime is just as distorted as blaming the venue. I blame the thief, and think the operator of the venue has a reasonable responsibility to provide for investigating crimes that take place on its premises.

We have gone to the highest levels in administration and security to get this worked on, along with the police, and we are working on a petition to change the school's security policy to provide a level of security that can be used to deter and to investigate crimes that take place on premises.

What disappoints me is the sad fatalistic attitude on this forum and from the students at the school. This allows for criminals to prey on victims who, when taken advantage of, do not seek justice for the crime but instead crow amongst themselves about who didn't do enough to prevent the crime, like rape victims in dismay that they didn't wear clothing that distorted their appearance enough to not provoke the rapist. You think you advocate personal responsibility, but you do not. The only person responsible for this crime is the criminal.

[froggy7]

Be careful of what you ask for. As has been stated, even if there was a guard in the room, he doesn't necessarily know who has been authorized to pick up which laptop. And are you going to be back on here complaining when you can't go up and see your girlfriend because that would "violate security"? I've heard stories of college campuses in the "old days", when you could only visit students at certain hours, in certain rooms, had to sign in and out, etc. If you showed up a minute after visiting time, you couldn't "legally" get in, which means that students would have to sneak in dates, friends, relatives, etc. And then what does that do to your security?

And, let's take your idea and run with it. There are security cameras, there are sign-in sheets. First off, the security cameras are not going to be concentrating on one spot 100% of the time. So, the most likely thing is that they see someone put down a laptop, or they see someone pick one up, not both. Can you prove that the laptop picked up is the same one that your girlfriend put down? If there's no picture of someone else picking it up, can you prove your girlfriend is not making a fraudulent claim? And, given that this is a 13 story building, are you going to ask _everyone_ who was in it what they saw? You will have some serious invasion of privacy issues there, and a lot of non-compliance. Are you willing to sign in if you are only going to be there 5 minutes picking your girlfriend up for lunch, and sign back out when you leave?

No, quite frankly, I am surprised that your girlfriend would allow a valuable item like a laptop be anywhere outside her immediate control. Would she have left her purse alone in the same place she left the laptop?

Also, in your initial post you said "students come and go as they please, with supervision by campus security." If there is supervision by campus security, the school is probably going to come back and say that they are providing adequate security, and that there is some personal responsibility involved here.

[Fr_Chuck]

Yes, the poster here is asking and wanting something that is first not within the ability of the school, and something the students would not want if they school would, guards at every door, ID requirements to enter any building, and so on. I worked for a major university and with the 100's of buildings and 1000's of students and visitors, complete security can not happen, ever.

This is the problem and we see it in the poster, they want to hold someone else liable for their problem, they are careless and don't want to take personal responsibility for their own care and actions. And then when told it is their fault, wish to attack those who are telling them the basic truths.

[necoutis]

"And, let's take your idea and run with it. There are security cameras, there are sign-in sheets. First off, the security cameras are not going to be concentrating on one spot 100% of the time. So, the most likely thing is that they see someone put down a laptop, or they see someone pick one up, not both. Can you prove that the laptop picked up is the same one that your girlfriend put down? If there's no picture of someone else picking it up, can you prove your girlfriend is not making a fraudulent claim? And, given that this is a 13 story building, are you going to ask _everyone_ who was in it what they saw? You will have some serious invasion of privacy issues there, and a lot of non-compliance. Are you willing to sign in if you are only going to be there 5 minutes picking your girlfriend up for lunch, and sign back out when you leave?"

I have no problem being seen on security cameras. I think that students in this building have the right to expect a reasonable - not police-state level, but reasonable and minimally-intrusive level of security. It is the norm in this day and age to expect to be filmed by closed-circuit TV when inside of a building. CCTV cameras provide a reasonable deterrent to criminal activity and reasonably contribute to solving crimes that are committed.

The majority of this college campus is in this single building. I am not advocating for a big brother police state, just a minimal effort to secure a single piece of property. I never advocated for cameras covering every corner of the room, just for a few cameras on elevators and stairwells, entry and exit points and a sign-in/sign-out sheet or scancards that log who is entering and leaving the building. These are again minimally intrusive measures that are commonly seen in well-trafficked city locations, like this one.

We are pursuing a petition and are getting great enthusiasm from the student population, that has been victimized by theft and vandalism that has gone unpunished in an environment that has not up to this point provided adequately for security.

The school can easily say that it adequately provides for security, but the students it serves disagrees. We have mounting evidence of criminal enterprise taking place there with very little deterrence and enforcement of policy.

Blaming the victims of crimes for their victimization does not in any way amount to a coherent doctrine of "personal responsibility" and my telling you so does not amount to me "attacking those who are telling (me) basic truths." It amounts to me simply trying to refine my argument here by exposing it to basic criticism, and again I thank all who have responded to me. You've helped me do exactly what I needed and, as of today, helped us get her laptop back. We've also hopefully gotten a lot closer to changing the school's policy for the better and helped close what may be a criminal enterprise.

Getting justice for a criminal who has preyed on hard-working and (fairly) innocent college students is not advocating for a "big bro nanny state." My girlfriend did nothing wrong except be outside of a room where she thought her property was safe. Getting her property back took more fighting than we expected, but was definitely worth it.

Again, thanks to all for help. If we get the petition out there, I'll post in here a follow up with a note about our success.

God bless!