[MoonlitWaves]

There's this rabbi who devoted his whole life to pleasing God, and he did many wonderful things to help people in need throughout his life. Now if I ask do Christians believe that this man will burn in hell for eternity because he did not accept Jesus Christ as his Savior? Go ahead and cite scripture if you must.

But if I ask how you as a Christian can accept such a hidious belief, I'm not looking for scripture! I want to know how you reconcile this fact and live with it. That's a question that requires your honest human response. Does that make any sense?

In this instance I would say that had he devoted his life to pleasing God then He would have accepted Jesus as his savior.

Yes, if he does not accept Jesus as his savior then he will go to hell. I don't think this is a hidious belief. God tells us what we must do to go to heaven and how to avoid hell. Therefore if you do not do ask for salvation then who do you have to blame other than yourself? How can you blame God that people go to hell when they have the opportunity to be saved and go to heaven? When they know if they don't accept Christ they will go to hell? How is it God's fault that they chose hell?

You guide your child and tell them what they should and shouldn't do. If they do what you tell them not to, is that your fault? Do you think you are wrong for punishing them? Does punishing them for their wrong doings make you a bad person?

Read the page I provide as a link below. This may help you to better understand what Christians believe happen to children, mentally handicapped and other people who are incapable of understanding God's Word. You may not agree and you may have more questions on it, but give it a go. Maybe you will gain more understanding.
Do mentally ill people go to heaven? Does God show mercy to those who are mentally retarded, challenged, disabled, or handicapped?

And read this answer about why God allows some to suffer and why He heals some.
Why do so many people have to experience terrible suffering before death?

An answer to the question, "How is eternity in hell a fair punishment for sin?"
How is eternity in hell a fair punishment for sin?

[lobrobster]

In this instance I would say that had he devoted his life to pleasing God then He would have accepted Jesus as his savior.

But how?! He's a Jewish rabbi for cryin' out loud! Rabbis do not, cannot, believe that Jesus was the Son of God.

Yes, if he does not accept Jesus as his savior then he will go to hell. I don't think this is a hidious belief.

How can you find it anything but morally obscene that a good, gentle, pious man who had devoted his entire life to God, is sentenced (by the very same God he worshipped) to eternal torture and punishment on a technicality? This is what I mean. Scripture doesn't cut it here. You are accepting a complete abomination of morality and justice. How are you justifying calling this a loving god, when no human being with an ounce of compassion would treat their worst enemy this way?

God tells us what we must do to go to heaven and how to avoid hell.

Let me ask you a serious question... Do you honestly think that if you had been born in Iraq to Muslim parents that you wouldn't be worshipping Allah and the koran right now? I think if you had been born in Israel, you'd be Jewish right now. Had you been born in India, you'd be Hindu, or a Buddhist. Had you been born someplace in Africa, you'd be worshing the ju-ju on the mountain. It is only by the sheerest of accidents you happen to be Christian. And THIS is what has you convinced you're religion is right?

Or is it that you think Christians are smarter than Muslims? Or Jews? Or Hindus who are just as convinced they are right about their beliefs?

The point I'm making is, that rabbi is every bit as convinced he's right about god as you are! And you have no edge over a practicing rabbi. He's just as likely to be right about god as you are, and undoubtedly more so.

Certainly if there's a loving God He understands this. He understands that a Jew cannot believe what a Christian does. So you've got a HUGE problem if you believe he did everything else right, but will still burn in hell for eternity because he got one technicality about Jesus wrong. Like I said, it's a hidious concept. What if YOU'RE wrong and it is Allah you should be worshipping?

[savedsinner7]

I would rather spend my life pursuing Jesus and be wrong, then not follow Him and find our He really is.

[lobrobster]

I would rather spend my life pursuing Jesus and be wrong, then not follow Him and find our He really is.

No problem. We can let this die. I've enjoyed corresponding with you. But I hope you consider that there are hundreds of different religions out there practiced by people just as smart as yourself. So Christianity is a huge longshot to be the right belief. And if there really IS a god who sends people to hell, and He's NOT the Christian God... You're probably in more trouble than an atheist.

[MoonlitWaves]

Let me ask you a serious question... Do you honestly think that if you had been born in Iraq to Muslim parents that you wouldn't be worshipping Allah and the koran right now? I think if you had been born in Israel, you'd be Jewish right now. Had you been born in India, you'd be Hindu, or a Buddhist. Had you been born someplace in Africa, you'd be worshing the ju-ju on the mountain. It is only by the sheerest of accidents you happen to be Christian. And THIS is what has you convinced you're religion is right?

No, I have said on this board before in another thread that I am grateful to God that I was born to Chrisitian parents. I am grateful that I did not have to sort through all other religions to find what I believe to be Truth. I also stated that I would like to think and hope that I would still be a Christian had I been born to believers of something different even if in another country, but I can't know for sure. Therefore I am grateful I didn't have to find out.
No, What convinces me that my religion is right is my faith in God. My faith that He is Truth. No, I don't believe this makes me better than anyone else or smarter than anyone else. But because of my faith, I do believe that what I believe in is correct. Do I go around telling people who believe differently that I'm right and they're wrong? No. I would tell them using the Word why I believe the way I do. I will let God do the rest. Because after I have told them, there is nothing I can do any longer other than pray. It will then be between the person and God.

Or is it that you think Christians are smarter than Muslims? Or Jews? Or Hindus who are just as convinced they are right about their beliefs?

Of course not! Again, it because of my faith that I am a Christian.

Certainly if there's a loving God He understands this. He understands that a Jew cannot believe what a Christian does. So you've got a HUGE problem if you believe he did everything else right, but will still burn in hell for eternity because he got one technicality about Jesus wrong. Like I said, it's a hidious concept. What if YOU'RE wrong and it is Allah you should be worshipping?

I cannot tell you what God will and won't do in these difficult situations. It is not nor will it ever be my place to judge anyone. And thank God for that! With that said this is what I believe...

I believe that God knows all people's hearts. Only He can and will judge in the end. He will know, for one, if He went to that person in spirit. Two, He will know whether that person truly accepted Him or denied Him. God is a just God. He is loving and merciful and graceful. Therefore I believe this... Let's take babies and children for example. It is my belief that if a child/baby dies before their ability to understand that they are sinners, that they must accept Jesus as their savior then they will not be sent to hell. I do not believe that our loving and merciful God will send someone to hell who does not have the ability to understand the things in which they must understand to make a choice. Same goes for mentally hanicapped. I believe this also goes for anyone in this world. I do not believe that anyone will go to hell, no matter their age or intellectual status, if they do not have the ability to know that they must except Jesus as their savior in order to go to heaven.
But understand this... God gives us all the ability to know right from wrong. This is instilled in us. The Bibe tells us that we will ALL stand before the Judgement Seat and will be judged for our doings, good or bad. People who have never heard His Word are not exempt from this because they still know right from wrong. I do not believe that these people can nor will be held accountable for not excepting Jesus if they never knew they must except Jesus.
I believe God is just. I believe that God knows what's in our hearts. God knows what we know and what we don't know. He knows us better than we know ourselves. Therefore I believe God will judge people justly based upon these things.

:EDIT: I wanted to add something else to this that I forgot to mention.
But know this as well. It is my belief that if a person denies God's salvation they will go to hell. There is no excuse. It is my belief that if a person denies salvation they KNOW what it is they are denying. They know what will happen if they deny. It is my belief that God gives them this understanding when He comes to them. As I said before, God knows our hearts and because I believe Him to be just, His decision is the just and correct one.

[MoonlitWaves]

Lobrobster,
Also let me add this... Do you remember the story of Lazurus and the rich man? But notice this one particular thing out of the whole story and out of all the rich man said. Never once did the rich man ask to come out of hell. He asked for a drop of water, but he did not ask to come out of hell. Why do you think that is?

[lobrobster]

I am grateful that I did not have to sort through all other religions to find what I believe to be Truth.

So let's think about this... You have not researched any other religion, yet you are convinced that your religion is right. Do you buy cars like this? Would you make any other important decision in your life having learned only one side of a story? And this decision is so much MORE important than any earthly purchase or decision you could make! It involves your eternal soul! Yet you are not even willing to look into Islam or any other religion, preferring instead to just hope you were born into the right one? My you ARE a risk taker!

Seriously... I find it so hard to make these common sense points without coming off as insulting. I'm really trying hard to be respectful. But this is the epitome of arrogance! It's poor decision making at it's finest, barren of any semblence of logic whatsoever.

God is a just God. He is loving and merciful and graceful.

Yet we just concluded (with savedsinner) that God will sentence a gentle pious rabbi to eternity in hell. This is a man who devoted his entire life to God, but missed the fact that Jesus was divine, and instead just thought of him as a great teacher. Now God sends him to burn in hell forever. In no way, shape, or form, is this a loving just God.

I do not believe that our loving and merciful God will send someone to hell who does not have the ability to understand the things in which they must understand to make a choice.

Well then you must be including me here. I do not have the ability to suspend all logic and believe some of the outrageous claims in the bible. So I can still be saved, right?

Same goes for mentally hanicapped. I believe this also goes for anyone in this world. I do not believe that anyone will go to hell, no matter their age or intellectual status, if they do not have the ability to know that they must except Jesus as their savior in order to go to heaven.

At last! You are using logic and I can finally agree with you on something. I still don't think there's a god, but if there is, and He's loving, what you stated here is the only thing that makes sense.

It is my belief that if a person denies God's salvation they will go to hell. There is no excuse.

Well when do we get to make that determination? You see, right now I have no compelling reason to think a god exists. None... While the bible is good enough for you, it isn't for me. I don't believe what ancient man had to say about sky gods, because they didn't understand the world they were living in, the way we do now. They didn't know why volcanos erupted, or why tsunamis occurred. They didn't even know why the sun rose every day! There was once a volcano god, a god of the sea, a god of thunder, etc. Eventually all these gods went away as we began to understand our world. So what I'm asking is this...

I live a good life. I automatically do unto others as I would have them do unto me. I give to charity. I love and respect my fellow man. And while I do not believe in your god, I do not worship false gods. So when I die, if I come face to face with God or Jesus, I will obviously believe. It will be the very first time I ever had evidence they existed. So at that point, if God looks over my life and sees I was good, and He ask me to accept Him, I certainly would. So do I get into heaven? Or does He send me straight to hell?

[MoonlitWaves]

So let's think about this... You have not researched any other religion, yet you are convinced that your religion is right. Do you buy cars like this? Would you make any other important decision in your life having learned only one side of a story? And this decision is so much MORE important than any earthly purchase or decision you could make! It involves your eternal soul! Yet you are not even willing to look into Islam or any other religion, preferring instead to just hope you were born into the right one? My you ARE a risk taker!

Actually I have researched other religions, not thoroughly, but I have, and not all of them either. But I will also admit that I was a Christian before learning anything of other religions. Even still I find Truth in Christianity so there is no point, that I find, in researching other religions. Call it risky, call it what you will, but it is how I feel. I am comforted in my choice, I am content in my choice, and I believe with all my heart that my choice is the correct choice, therefore I am not afraid for my eternal soul. And no, I am not hoping I was born into the right religion, I believe I WAS born into the right religion. Whether I was born into a Christian family or not I still had to make a choice. And I made it. This may not be good enough for you personally, and you may feel I am careless in my reasoning and ways, but I am content with it, therefore that is what matters to me. You do what is important and what matters to you. You're the one who must answer for your choices, not only in the end but even now.

Seriously... I find it so hard to make these common sense points without coming off as insulting. I'm really trying hard to be respectful. But this is the epitome of arrogance! It's poor decision making at it's finest, barren of any semblence of logic whatsoever.

I don't feel insulted by your opinions of my choices and beliefs. I mean it would be different if your intentions were to insult me, but I don't feel however, that this is your intentions. Even if I am wrong it still doesn't change anything. I enjoy discussing this with you. I want you to ask whatever you want to. I want you to understand my beliefs. I want you to comment about how you feel about it. I can explain to you why I feel and believe it is not the way you think it to be. Whether you agree in the end or not at least we know we talked about your questions and comments. See what I mean?
With that said let me comment on your comments. See, to you, it is common sense that my beliefs are wrong or not logical, but to me it is common sense to believe the way I do. I feel it is easy to see and know the same Truth that I know and see. Therefore, just as you can't understand why I can't see your point of view, I can't understand why you can't see mine. I don't believe that my contentment with my belief and decisions are arrogant at all! How is finding what I believe to be the correct choice, even if on the first try, bad decision making? But remember this lobrobster, even if you feel it is bad decision making who is the one that must answer for MY choices? Me.

Yet we just concluded (with savedsinner) that God will sentence a gentle pious rabbi to eternity in hell. This is a man who devoted his entire life to God, but missed the fact that Jesus was divine, and instead just thought of him as a great teacher. Now God sends him to burn in hell forever. In no way, shape, or form, is this a loving just God.

As I said before it is not my place to answer to why God chooses to do what He does. I am in no place to judge anyone. But I can tell you what I believe to be the way God will judge people. God knows whether that rabbi knew He must accept Jesus as his savior to enter heaven. Only God knows whether He came to that rabbi. Again, I believe God to be just. Therefore I do not think God will send anyone to heaven or hell unjustly.

Well then you must be including me here. I do not have the ability to suspend all logic and believe some of the outrageous claims in the bible. So I can still be saved, right?

This is not for me to say, and I won't say. I would not even look at an unsaved person and tell them they are going to hell. This is not my place. I will however read them the scripture and let God take care of the convicting and judging.

At last! You are using logic and I can finally agree with you on something. I still don't think there's a god, but if there is, and He's loving, what you stated here is the only thing that makes sense.

I am not just now using logic. It has always been my belief that God would not send someone to hell who, for one, could not understand it, or two, didn't have the knowledge necessary to know how to be saved and enter heaven. Never did I say otherwise.

Well when do we get to make that determination? You see, right now I have no compelling reason to think a god exists. None... While the bible is good enough for you, it isn't for me. I don't believe what ancient man had to say about sky gods, because they didn't understand the world they were living in, the way we do now. They didn't know why volcanos erupted, or why tsunamis occured. They didn't even know why the sun rose every day! There was once a volcano god, a god of the sea, a god of thunder, etc. Eventually all these gods went away as we began to understand our world. So what I'm asking is this...

I live a good life. I automatically do unto others as I would have them do unto me. I give to charity. I love and respect my fellow man. And while I do not believe in your god, I do not worship false gods. So when I die, if I come face to face with God or Jesus, I will obviously believe. It will be the very first time I ever had evidence they existed. So at that point, if God looks over my life and sees I was good, and He ask me to accept Him, I certainly would. So do I get into heaven? Or does He send me straight to hell?

No, I believe that once you die you have no other chances. So when you do see Jesus face to face it will be too late to make a choice. Because after you see Him there is no choice to be made. You will have no choice but to believe in Him as you will have the proof right in front of you. This is not what God wants. He wants you to have faith. Please don't wait until you see Him.
Again, accepting Jesus as your savior is how you get into heaven. Just being good will not get you into heaven. Therefore there will be people who did good things on this earth who will go to hell. You may think it is cruel. But let me ask you this... and I truly want you to think about this... If you do not believe in God then you do not believe in heaven. Why should you go to heaven when you don't believe there is one, even if you are a good person? Or if you denied the opportunity to go while you were on earth? Why should God allow a person into heaven who is being good "just in case" there is a heaven? God makes it clear what must be done to enter heaven. Why then, should He allow you there if you don't do what you clearly know you must do to get there?

[savedsinner7]

lobrobster, may I ask you a question?

You are a parent. If your child is willfully disobedient, do you discipline?

If your child was to refuse to listen to your words of wisdom and chose a life of rebellion, drugs, destitution, or other unfavorable life, would you still love them?

Would you force them to follow your way?

Would you allow them the natural consequences associated with such choices?

[lobrobster]

lobrobster, may I ask you a question?

You are a parent. If your child is willfully disobedient, do you discipline?

If your child was to refuse to listen to your words of wisdom and chose a life of rebellion, drugs, destitution, or other unfavorable life, would you still love them?

Would you force them to follow your way?

Would you allow them the natural consequences associated with such choices?

All very good questions!

*I remember the first time I spanked my daughter. She was about 4, and 'll never forget the look on her face. It was at once a look of defiance, disbelief, and shock, as if she didn't know who I was. She didn't even cry, which surprised me because I gave her a pretty good whack. I spanked her again, harder this time wanting her to get the message. But it was the same thing. She still didn't cry! Her look was even more defiant this time, more of shock, and more like I was some stranger to her. I decided right then that I would never want to break such a strong will. It was the last time I ever spanked my kids. But of course, I do discipline them in other ways now.

As for your other questions, I think I might see what you're getting at.

Yes, you can only do so much for your kids to prepare them for the real world and if they stray into trouble or from your love, I suppose you have to let them go at some point. But here's the thing...

My love for my children is unconditional. They are always welcome to come back to me, no matter what their transgressions. And I would never lock them in a dungeonness basement even for a moment, let alone eternity!

This is what I ask YOU to think about! What loving parent would ever wish such a fate upon their child? There is no transgression my kids could make that would cause me to want to send them to hell where they suffer for eternity. On the contrary...

I would gladly take their place in hell, if it meant sparing them such a fate. Such is the love of a parent. Yet somehow you justify such a barbaric sentence as the product of a loving god? I just don't understand how.

Please don't say, "God does not/cannot"... Please! You claim god to be omnipotent. That means all-powerful, all knowing, and able to do anything (within logical reason). And we are to believe He can't spare his own children the hidious fate of hell? I don't buy it.

[MoonlitWaves]

Yet somehow you justify such a barbaric sentence as the product of a loving god? I just don't understand how.

Oh how God is loving! So loving that He sent His Son, who never sinned, to carry and die for our sins so the we would not suffer in hell for eternity.
You, and not just you, but a lot of people who find it difficult to believe in God, do so because He will send people to hell. But you are not focusing on the right thing. God is love, mercy, grace and goodness. If you were focusing on God you wouldn't even be thinking about hell. Other than trying to spead His gospel so that everyone else will rejoice in heaven with you and not suffer hell. Too many people assosiate God with hell, and this is not correct thinking. Why do you all focus so much on the fact that people will go to hell rather than focusing on the grace God provides to keep you out of there? And letting others know Truth as well so that they will stay out of hell?

Please don't say, "God does not/cannot"... Please! You claim god to be omnipotent. That means all-powerful, all knowing, and able to do anything (within logical reason). And we are to believe He can't spare his own children the hidious fate of hell? I don't buy it.

Any Christian who knows anything about God should know that God CAN do anything and everything. But God only does what it is in His will to do.

[lobrobster]

With each response from you, I have new questions. We could go on forever it seems. I hope you don't mind one more...

So loving that He sent His Son, who never sinned, to carry and die for our sins so the we would not suffer in hell for eternity.

Why do you find this loving? Why couldn't He have just forgave us without putting Jesus through all that? He IS God, isn't He? Are you saying there was no other way we could've been forgiven for our sins? If you had any other way, would you ever allow your child to be tortured like that? I'm sure this little nugget of illogic doesn't bother you, but it sure bothers me. It makes no sense. Also, according to you, Many of us are STILL not saved and will wind up burning in hell for eternity anyway.

You, and not just you, but a lot of people who find it difficult to believe in God, do so because He will send people to hell.

That's but one, of many reasons yes. But there are tons more why I find it difficult to believe in God.

But you are not focusing on the right thing. God is love, mercy, grace and goodness.

Well He didn't seem so loving, merciful, gracious, or good, when he wiped out the entire human race except for Noah and his family. Or when he slew every first born in the land of Egypt. Or when He commands that those who don't observe the Sabbath day be killed, or when He says to stone your fiancé to death if she's not a virgin, or... Need I go on?

Too many people assosiate God with hell, and this is not correct thinking. Why do you all focus so much on the fact that people will go to hell rather than focusing on the grace God provides to keep you out of there? And letting others know Truth as well so that they will stay out of hell?

I'll be glad to drop hell from my list of seemingly never-ending questions about what doesn't make sense in the bible and move on. Perhaps you can explain the story of Noah's ark to me?

[MoonlitWaves]

Lobrobseter,
I am going to attempt to try to get you to understand why I believe God sends people to hell (other than because they are not saved), and why I do not believe this makes Him a cruel God.

First of all I have the feeling that you think people are deserving of heaven. If I am wrong then please correct me, but I believe this may be the reason why you can only focus on the fact that God will send people to hell. The reason why you can't see that God is nothing but good. That He is just in His decision for our eternity.

None of us, not one, deserves God's grace, mercy, salvation and heaven.

We on our own accord are not deserving of heaven/salvation/grace. God makes us deserving by washing us in the blood of the Lamb when we accept Jesus as our savior. Sin cannot enter heaven, therefore we must be washed in the blood of the Lamb (saved). This is why just being good will not get you into heaven.

Here's the thing lobrobster. This world must end. God is not going to continue to allow all the bad in this world to go on forever. The reason being is because God did not intend for the world to be sinful in the first place. It will go back to the way He intended it from the get go, which is perfect (heaven). With that said, think about this. Since our souls live for eternity they must live somewhere. If God will not allow them to continue in this sinful world, then what will He do with them? If those who are still sinful (unsaved) do not and cannot enter heaven, where then should they go? One day the sin in this world will stop. Sin will stop period. Even for those who are in hell, even they do not get to continue in their sin. They will spend their eternal lives being punished for their wrong doings. So... even if their punishment is not hell, they still must spend an eternity being punished. What punishment do you honestly think someone could spend an eternity receiving that would not be excruciating (even if not painful), terrifying, sorrowful, etc.
Why then, you may ask, doesn't He just eliminate those who will receive punishment altogether instead of sending them to an eternity of punishment? Because our souls are eternal. Why should He destroy you? Why should you get out of your punishment.
Surely you will agree lobrobster, that when people do wrong they should receive punishment for it. Why then do you have a problem with God dishing out punishment for our disobedience?

[De Maria]

Lobrobseter,
I am going to attempt to try to get you to understand why I believe God sends people to hell (other than because they are not saved), and why I do not believe this makes Him a cruel God.

In my opinion, God doesn't send anyone to hell. God gives you free will. With your free will you can select God and heaven or reject God and select hell. Whoever has gone to hell, is there of their own free will.

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end.
CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 1037

Sincerely,

De Maria

[lobrobster]

Moonlitwaves-

I think you've explained God and heaven adequately and to my satisfaction. If I understand you correctly, you are saying:

God and heaven are perfection. They are absolute. Heaven is not so much a place as it is a state of perfection. Of all that is good and the complete absence of evil and all that is bad.

Since none of us are perfect (or can ever hope to be), it is impossible to be worthy of God's grace and His presence in heaven. In this way, heaven cannot be earned. We are never fully deserving of God or heaven. However...

God so loves us He is willing to provide us with a way to join Him in the glory of heaven. This is why He sent Jesus His only Son down to die for us. In this way, if we accept Jesus as our Savior, we might hope to be cleansed of our sins enough to enter heaven.

I might have a few things wrong here and there, but is this about right?

You've explained this all very well and I greatly appreciate it. It's even starting to make some logical sense to me when put in this way. Although I still don't get why Jesus had to be so brutally tortured. I'm also unclear on why God can't just forgive us. Or why there is an earthly time limit for our souls to be cleansed. Why can't those of us who don't believe all this stuff take care of it in the eternal afterlife? Exactly what is it about my soul that changes after accepting Jesus? What you're saying is that even if I sin less than you do, you're soul is cleansed with your acceptance of Jesus. Why is that? If I see Jesus after death I would accept Him as well. Now we both accepted Him, but I have sinned less than you (hypothetical... I'm not saying I really sin less than you). Why are you saved, but I am not?

[lobrobster]

In my opinion, God doesn't send anyone to hell. God gives you free will. With your free will you can select God and heaven or reject God and select hell. Whoever has gone to hell, is there of their own free will.

Except if you happen to have the misfortune of being born in Pakistan.

This is why I say you're intolerant De Maria. Can you really not see that if you had been born in an Islamic fundamentalist part of the world that YOU yourself would be a Muslim worshipping Allah right now? Or are you so conceited to think that you would have somehow saw the light, where millions have not? Been brave enough to commit apostasy against the Koran (punishable by death), where millions have not? And been praising Jesus instead of Allah, when millions do not?

Yes... De Maria super Christian! Would've somehow saw the light of Christianity, avoided being beheaded, and saved his soul, where MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of Muslims have utterly failed. They must all be so much dumber than you, huh? Please...

[MoonlitWaves]

With each response from you, I have new questions. We could go on forever it seems. I hope you don't mind one more...

I'm sorry, but I am trying to answer your questions to the best of my knowledge. Knowing God is never ending therefore we could talk about this until we die. Don't worry if you have new questions, I have questions all the time too. I don't mind answering your questions, do not feel as though you are getting on my nerves because you are not. I will answr what I can for.

Why do you find this loving? Why couldn't He have just forgave us without putting Jesus through all that? He IS God, isn't He? Are you saying there was no other way we could've been forgiven for our sins? If you had any other way, would you ever allow your child to be tortured like that?

First of all I believe that Jesus was willing. Secondly, blood is necessary in cleansing us of our sins. Hebrews 9:22 "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission." Jesus was sent as a final sacrifice. Once He fulfilled the prophecy we no longer have to sacrifice blood in order to receive forgivness for our sins.
Why must Jesus' blood be shed in order to receive salvation? When we receive salvation we receive life. Blood represents life. Leviticus 17:11 " For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul." Therefore the shedding of Jesus' blood, shed life. His blood must have been shed in order that we may have life (salvation).

I'm sure this little nugget of illogic doesn't bother you, but it sure bothers me. It makes no sense.

The reason I gave you above is logical to me. It makes perfect sense, and I am glad God loves us so much that He did this for us so that we may have life.

Also, according to you, Many of us are STILL not saved and will wind up burning in hell for eternity anyways.

Jesus did die so that we all could receive salvation, but you must believe in God whole heartedly and you must accept this offer to go to heaven.

That's but one, of many reasons yes. But there are tons more why I find it difficult to believe in God.

If you want to, we can talk about these things. I enjoy it and will discuss this with you so long as you want to. We may have to revert to private message as this is becoming discussion and asking questions that are not related to the original question asked.

Well He didn't seem so loving, merciful, gracious, or good, when he wiped out the entire human race except for Noah and his family. Or when he slew every first born in the land of Egypt. Or when He commands that those who don't observe the Sabbath day be killed, or when He says to stone your fiance to death if she's not a virgin, or... Need I go on?

Some of these things, in our human mind, find it hard to understand. I do not understand His reason's for everything He does. But because of my faith in God, because I believe He is good and just, I do not believe that these instances make Him cruel, unmerciful, not gracious, and bad.
Isaiah 55:8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord." Isaiah 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Because I know this, I know that what I may think of His actions, like the ones you mentioned, are not necessarily truth. For example if I was to think this is cruel of Him. This is my human thoughts and because His thoughts are higher than mine I may not be getting the true understanding of why He did what He did, because I am not thinking like He is. Do you see what I mean? Also, because it is my belief that God is good, I believe that everything He does is for the good, will make for a better outcome, is what was meant to be, etc. It is because I have faith that God is good and just that I trust His decisions are the right ones.

I'll be glad to drop hell from my list of seemingly never-ending questions about what doesn't make sense in the bible and move on.

Do that only if you want to, but don't do it because you think I don't want to answer or wish for you to stop asking. I want you to ask whatever you will. As I said before I will answer you what I can. And when I can't I will seek the answer for you, if it be through studying and asking God to give me the answer for you, or if I have to ask someone myself.

Perhaps you can explain the story of Noah's ark to me?

What is it you would like to know? If it is why God flooded the earth and killed all of those people I have answered the best I can above.

[savedsinner7]

lobrobster
Have you ever tried to forgive someone who refused to accept what you were offering?
God does not will that ANY should suffer the punishment, but many REFUSE to OPEN the GIFT He offers in Jesus. Can you imagine giving your child the most awesome gift that you spent much time planning and wrapping and then they just look at the paper and walk away?

Jesus was tortured so much so that we don't have to be. He loves us so incredibly that He was willing to give up His only Son for us. I have kids I will never give up that way. I'm too selfish. God is not. Jesus willingly laid His life down, He said so.
John 10:15
As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
John 10:14-16 (in Context) John 10 (Whole Chapter)
John 10:17
“Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
John 10:16-18 (in Context) John 10 (Whole Chapter)
John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.
John 15:12-14 (in Context) John 15 (Whole Chapter)


Jesus went willingly to His death, so that He could be raised again by the Father.

[savedsinner7]

lobrobster, there will always be arguments against believing in God as long as Satan is loose.

There are many things of God that I don't yet understand and that cause me to question. I ask God when I have questions and in time (His timing) He reveals the answers. Many things I may not know until I stand before Him. Still I seek Him.

[De Maria]

Except if you happen to have the misfortune of being born in Pakistan.

This is why I say you're intolerant De Maria.

I guess on this forum you are permitted to call me whatever you want. God forbid I tell you what I think of you however. I'll have the nonChristian thought police all over me.

Nevertheless, I will. I don't think you have any earthly idea what you are talking about.

Can you really not see that if you had been born in an Islamic fundamentalist part of the world that YOU yourself would be a Muslim worshipping Allah right now? Or are you so conceited to think that you would have somehow saw the light, where millions have not? Been brave enough to commit apostasy against the Koran (punishable by death), where millions have not? And been praising Jesus instead of Allah, when millions do not?

Yes... De Maria super Christian!

Praise God! That is precisely what I'm shooting for.

Would've somehow saw the light of Christianity, avoided being beheaded, and saved his soul, where MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of Muslims have utterly failed. They must all be so much dumber than you, huh? Please...

Well, you don't know what you are talking about. I happen to believe that many people who are not Christian will be in heaven before Christians. That is Catholic doctrine.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3

So, although yiou may think I'm intolerant, you have no grounds to do so. However, you have just proven your own ignorance about what the majority of Christians believe.

Sincerely,

De Maria