[De Maria]

Here, let me help you a bit, here is the definition of hypocrite:
1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

I am doing neither since I'm not putting on any false appearances of religion nor am I acting in contradiction of my stated beliefs.

I can put an angel at the top of my tree or hit my thumb and yell out "Jesus Christ!" and neither is related to religion. Weird huh? You seem to believe that your belief is the basis for every Christmas ritual. Celebrating the winter solstice has been going on since before there even was such a thing as christianity: Solstice a Cause for Celebration Since Ancient Times

" Many more people observe the solstice while participating in modern holidays—even if they do not always realize the connection.... "As the Christmas celebration moved west," Yeide said "the date that had traditionally been used to celebrate the winter solstice became sort of available for conversion to the observance of Christmas. In the Western church, the December date became the date for Christmas."
Traditional solstice celebrations existed in many cultures. The Roman feast of Saturnalia, honoring the God Saturn, was a weeklong December feast that included the observance of the winter solstice. Romans also celebrated the lengthening of days following the solstice by paying homage to Mithra—an ancient Persian god of light. "

Pretty weird response. Was the "solstice" born in a stable and laid in a manger? I didn't think so.

Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. If you wish to celebrate the solstice, it would be mighty funny doing it by singing Joy to the World the Lord has come.. or Come all ye faithful... or by yelling Jesus Christ at the top of your lungs.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[michealb]

First, about Christians saying that this forum is for christians only. I didn't see a sign on the door if the admins would like to add one. I'll gladly stay out. Otherwise I view this as a board of opinions and I am just as free to give mine as any fundy.

Second
De Maria I think you need to study history a bit more before you go around saying that Christmas traditions are christian in origin. The early germans before they were christionized had a festival at Yule. This festival was to celebrate the great hunt of Odin(the god of the germans at the time also a large man with a white beard). The children would put their boots by the fireplace and fill them with carrots, straw and sugar for Odin's flying horse. In return Odin would leave the children presents for the kindness that they had done. Sounds familiar doesn't it. Didn't you ever wonder what St. Nick and the tree have to do with the birth of Christ?

[De Maria]

First, about Christians saying that this forum is for christians only.

If you are referring to me, please read what I actually said. NonChristians on this topic have shown a nasty tendency to make up arguments and attribute them to others in order to shoot them down.

I didn't see a sign on the door if the admins would like to add one. I'll gladly stay out. Otherwise I view this as a board of opinions and I am just as free to give mine as any fundy.

And so are we. My complaint was directed at a nonChristian who objected to my defense of Christianity on a Christian forum.

Second
De Maria I think you need to study history a bit more before you go around saying that Christmas traditions are christian in origin.

I think you need to study up on real history if you believe that cacamaimie nonChristian spin on history.

The early germans before they were christionized had a festival at Yule.

Yule, the winter solstice, is not Christmas. Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Christ. We do no celebrate the winter solstice. We celebrate the birth of Christ.

This festival was to celebrate the great hunt of Odin(the god of the germans at the time also a large man with a white beard). The children would put their boots by the fireplace and fill them with carrots, straw and sugar for Odin's flying horse. In return Odin would leave the children presents for the kindness that they had done. Sounds familiar doesn't it. Didn't you ever wonder what St. Nick and the tree have to do with the birth of Christ?

No. I've never wondered about that.
1. As I explained before. St. Nick is St. Nicholas. He is a verifiable person who was once Bishop of Myra:
Saint Nicholas ::: A Real Person?

2. I actually enjoyed reading Norse mythology when I was young. But I knew it was fiction.

3. The Christmas tree and the yule log are two different traditions. They are related to Christ birth only in the fact that Christians decided to use these ornaments to celebrate the birth of Christ.

4. The giving of gifts to children during Christmas is an ancient custom amongst Christians derived from the fact that the three Kings brought gifts to the baby Jesus.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[michealb]

I thought giving gifts at Christmas was from St. Nick who became a saint because he was generous to the poor in particular children. We don't have 3 wise men who bring gifts on Christmas. Why are you celebrating a catholic saint anyway? Why is norse mythology any less true than Christian mythology? Did you know that in 1208 Odin was seen leading the charge of the Scandinavians against the Danish army. The Scandinavains won the battle thanks to Odin that day.

Back on topic though Christians are free to shop where ever they wish this Holiday season. I am free to shop where I wish. Since this is a private non government matter you can have all the Merry Christmas you can get as far as I'm concerned. Personally I think it is selfish to not want to include everyone this holiday season but I guess wanting to include people of all faiths and backgrounds is part of my morals and not christian morals.

[De Maria]

I thought giving gifts at Christmas was from St. Nick who became a saint because he was generous to the poor in particular children.

The tradition of giving gifts on Christmas predates St. Nick.

We don't have 3 wise men who bring gifts on Christmas.

Yes, we do. It is an old and cherished Christmas tradition. In many Christian countries, Santa was unknown until recently. In those countries, the Three Kings brought the gifts.

Why are you celebrating a catholic saint anyway?

On Christmas, we observe and celebrate the birth of Christ. The Saints are examples of how Christmas should be observed and celebrated.

Why is norse mythology any less true than Christian mythology?

I believe that is way beyond the scope of this topic. Suffice to say that there is no evidence that the Norse myths are true.

Christian history is not mythology. It is documented history with eyewitness testimony.

Did you know that in 1208 Odin was seen leading the charge of the Scandinavians against the Danish army. The Scandinavains won the battle thanks to Odin that day.

I know that a legend of that incident exists. However no one has ever been able to produce documented eyewitness testimony.

Back on topic though Christians are free to shop where ever they wish this Holiday season.

Thanks. But we know.

I am free to shop where I wish.

That is correct.

Since this is a private non government matter you can have all the Merry Christmas you can get as far as I'm concerned.

I intend to.

Personally I think it is selfish to not want to include everyone this holiday season but I guess wanting to include people of all faiths and backgrounds is part of my morals and not christian morals.

Thank God we live in a free country. No one is stopping you from celebrating your Holy day. We simply ask that you don't stop us from celebrating ours. And we reserve the right to shop at stores which recognize our Holy day.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[ordinaryguy]

We simply ask that you don't stop us from celebrating ours.

Does being wished "Happy Holidays" by a cashier stop you from celebrating your holy day?

And we reserve the right to shop at stores which recognize our Holy day.

The greeting "Happy Holidays" does recognize your Holy day, as well as all the other Holy days that happen to be celebrated this time of year. What seems to irritate you is that your Holy day is not being recognized exclusively. Why does it bother you so much to include others' holy days in a generic greeting? It seems really petty and small to be offended by the fact that the season's other holidays are being acknowledged along with your own.

[De Maria]

Does being wished "Happy Holidays" by a cashier stop you from celebrating your holy day?

No.

The greeting "Happy Holidays" does recognize your Holy day, as well as all the other Holy days that happen to be celebrated this time of year. What seems to irritate you is that your Holy day is not being recognized exclusively.

To irritate me? Where did you get that impression?

Why does it bother you so much to include others' holy days in a generic greeting? It seems really petty and small to be offended by the fact that the season's other holidays are being acknowledged along with your own.

Well, at least your tone is less aggressive and demeaning than the other nonChristians which I've spoken to on this forum. But you are either misunderstanding my posts or still putting words in my mouth. Where did you get the impression that I was offended if someone gave a generic greeting or if other holidays were acknowledged. Please quote me.

Because if you read my messages, you will see that I advocate "voting with your dollars". I couldn't care less if you or any other person wishes to say "Happy Holidays."

But many Christians do want Christmas to be acknowledged in their stores. And they have the right to vote with their dollars. And in fact, my wife and I do also. Not because we are offended but because its what our Christian friends want. When our Christian friends have a cause which is not unreasonable, we rally behind them.

Why does that bother you?

Sincerely,

De Maria

[michealb]

Doesn't bother me if you just don't shop there. What bothers me is when christians harass low paid holiday workers when they say "Happy Holidays".

[De Maria]

Doesn't bother me if you just don't shop there.

Then what's the problem? Is it that you don't want me to tell them why I won't shop there? It would be pretty stupid for us to boycott a store without telling them why we're boycotting. They wouldn't know how to correct their behavior.

What bothers me is when christians harass low paid holiday workers when they say "Happy Holidays".

I don't know what you mean by harassment. Is it only when Christians demonstrate their concerns with a store's policies that you consider it harassment? Or do you also consider it harassment when nonChristians express their dissatisfaction to low paid holiday workers for saying, "Merry Christmas"?

As for me, I recommend you vote with your dollars. If you don't like the way a store is treating you, let them know why you won't be back. As the saying goes, "the customer is always right."

Sincerely,

De Maria

[ordinaryguy]

Where did you get the impression that I was offended if someone gave a generic greeting or if other holidays were acknowledged. Please quote me.

OK, for example:

Its an annoyance. Its like someone coming to your birthday party and ignoring you. Or like someone, not the bride, coming to the wedding dressed all in white. Hey, its our Holy Day In fact, its our "Holy Season". If certain stores don't want to recognize it, we'll spend our dollars with those that will.

Your insistence that not only Christmas day, but the entire "Holy Season" is yours, and that stores "don't want to recognize it" is what led me to believe that you were offended by a more inclusive greeting.

I could care less if you or any other person wishes to say "Happy Holidays."

But many Christians do want Christmas to be acknowledged in their stores.

And "Happy Holidays" does acknowledge it, just not exclusively. So it doesn't seem to be a lack of acknowledgement of your own tradition that's the problem, it's the inclusion of other traditions along with yours.

And they have the right to vote with their dollars. And in fact, my wife and I do also. Not because we are offended but because its what our Christian friends want.

So even though you and your wife aren't personally offended by a greeting that includes other holidays as well as your own, many of your Christian friends are, so you boycott stores that say Happy Holidays to show your support of your friends' offense, even though you don't share it?

[Soldout]

Here, let me help you a bit, here is the definition of hypocrite:
1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

I am doing neither since I'm not putting on any false appearances of religion nor am I acting in contradiction of my stated beliefs.

I can put an angel at the top of my tree or hit my thumb and yell out "Jesus Christ!" and neither is related to religion. Weird huh? You seem to believe that your belief is the basis for every Christmas ritual. Celebrating the winter solstice has been going on since before there even was such a thing as christianity: Solstice a Cause for Celebration Since Ancient Times

" Many more people observe the solstice while participating in modern holidays—even if they do not always realize the connection.... "As the Christmas celebration moved west," Yeide said "the date that had traditionally been used to celebrate the winter solstice became sort of available for conversion to the observance of Christmas. In the Western church, the December date became the date for Christmas."
Traditional solstice celebrations existed in many cultures. The Roman feast of Saturnalia, honoring the God Saturn, was a weeklong December feast that included the observance of the winter solstice. Romans also celebrated the lengthening of days following the solstice by paying homage to Mithra—an ancient Persian god of light. "

I know the History of how Christmas came about so you don't need to educated me on that. Regardless of its roots, Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Christ. And all the pagon perks were adapted by Christians as a way to celebrate Christmas. So if you buy Christmas trees and put a star or angel on it, sing carols, take you kids to go see santa St Nic, you are celebrating a Christian tradition that has been established for centuries. So if you claim to be an atheist and participate in the latter traditions, you are nothing but a hypocryt by your own definition. Oh.. wait a minute, my bad, apparently you are not an atheist.. mmm... because you worship of the god saturn and the Sun god. So Christmas time, you celebrate your pagon gods, oh okey then that makes sense them, so I suppose you may not be a hypocrite. You have your own cause for celebration; your pagon sun gods. So Merry Sungod-mas to you!

[NeedKarma]

Gee Soldout, you seem to have a bitterness about you. Why? Why can't you relax and let other people celebrate the way they want to?

[Soldout]

Gee Soldout, you seem to have a bitterness about you. Why? Why can't you relax and let other people celebrate the way they want to?

Oh by all means I am not bitter... lol I am just amused. You people just crack me up because you all pretend like you are these "inteligent" athiests who could care less about religion & look down upon us "ignorant" religious people and yet the funny thing is that you (especiallY Needkarma) spend 16 hours of your day on a religious forum and the other 8 hours dreaming about what you are going to say next. For some who is supposed to be an atheist, you spend a lot of time and energy on religion. Why is that? You also participate in traditions that have been establish by "religious" people and You make excuses and lie to yourself till you believe it, as to why you are not being you are not sending mixed messages. But what ever makes you feel good. You can celebrate Zeus or the moon god on christmas day & couldn't care less.

[NeedKarma]

I forgive you.

[De Maria]

OK, for example:

Your insistence that not only Christmas day, but the entire "Holy Season" is yours, and that stores "don't want to recognize it" is what led me to believe that you were offended by a more inclusive greeting.

Oh, I guess you don't know?

The term "Happy Holidays" was not offensive before the 1960's. Why, because before 60's, "Happy Holidays" was synonymous with "Happy Christmas Holy Days".

In the Early Middle Ages, Christmas Day was overshadowed by Epiphany, which in the west focused on the visit of the magi. But the Medieval calendar was dominated by Christmas-related holidays. The forty days before Christmas became the "forty days of St. Martin" (which began on November 11, the feast of St. Martin of Tours), now known as Advent.... Around the 12th century, these traditions transferred again to the Twelve Days of Christmas (December 26 - January 6);
Christmas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As you can see, celebrating the CHRISTMAS holidays is an ancient tradition indeed.

It is still recognized as such by those who are knowledgeable of the matter. See the second definition in the Wikipedia:

In the United States, it can have several variations and meanings:
* As "Happy Holiday", a substitution for "Merry Christmas"
Holiday greetings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

NonChristians assume that Christmas is the celebration of Christmas day alone. But it isn't. For Christians, the celebration of Christmas begins Dec 1, the Advent of Christmas (fyi, the wreath which we hang on our doors is the advent wreath, frequently you will see four candles in the center representing the three weeks before Christmas and the week of Christmas). We begin our celebration by preparing ourselves for the coming of our Lord.

Then, on Dec 24th begins Christmas proper. The celebration of the Christmas season begins on Christmas eve and ends on January 6, the day of the Three Kings.

See the Liturgical Calendar:
Liturgical year - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Before the 1960's, when a Christian said, Happy Holidays, he meant, Happy Christmas holidays.

Suddenly, in the 1960's there was a left wing movement using fear and intimidation to censor Christians by removing the mention of Christ in the Public and Private forum. In public schools, prayer was forbidden. In the private sector, the ACLU and other left wing groups began suing people who said "Merry Christmas."

ACLU Sues Government over Christmas Holiday | Save Religion!
WorldNetDaily: Court: 'Merry Christmas' ACLU
Baptist Press - FIRST-PERSON: Merry Christmas -- it's okay to say it - News with a Christian Perspective
Denial of Free Speech by the Courts
Lobo's Links: 11/2005 - 12/2005

So, although some well meaning nonChristians believe that using the term "Happy Holidays" is an inclusive term, in reality, the ACLU has made it an exclusion of Christmas.

Suddenly Happy Holidays no longer mean Merry Christmas but something totally foreign to Christmas.

It has gotten to the point where a minority of people are trying to control the thoughts and expressions of the majority of people. That is not supposed to happen in a free republic. You might see that in a communist state or in a dictatorship, but not in a democratic government which is ruled by majority vote.

And so, the pendulum is swinging the other way. Christians are beginning to reassert their right to celebrate their Holy Days by saying Merry Christmas.

And "Happy Holidays" does acknowledge it,

Not anymore. Happy Holidays used to include Christmas. But if you are no longer permitted to mention Christmas then the new redefinition of Happy Holidays excludes Christmas.

just not exclusively. So it doesn't seem to be a lack of acknowledgement of your own tradition that's the problem, it's the inclusion of other traditions along with yours.

No, it's the censorship of the simple expression "Merry Christmas" and the redefinition of a long tradition wherein Happy Holy Days meant exactly what it has always meant, "Happy Christmas Holidays".

So even though you and your wife aren't personally offended by a greeting that includes other holidays as well as your own, many of your Christian friends are,

That is true. And I can see their point. Why should we, Christians, the majority in this country, be made afraid to say "Merry Christmas" under threat of litigation and harrassment:

... After she paid I said Merry Christmas to her as she left. Well, apparently she didn't like the fact that I said this... Back to the story. This lady started in on me about how insinsitive it was to say Merry Christmas to people I did not know were Christians. She apparently was not. This lady was almost near hysterics over this. Standing at the front counter yelling at me over the this phrase... At this point I was growing tired of being yelled at so I told her to just get out and take that chip on her shoulder with her.
History Channel: Merry Christmas ...

so you boycott stores that say Happy Holidays to show your support of your friends' offense, even though you don't share it?

I am not offended by those who say, "Happy Holidays" in good faith. Nor am I offended by any who want to say "Happy Hannakah" or "Happy Kwanzaa" or "Happy to be an atheist". I am offended by those who want to censor my right to say, "Merry Christmas"..

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Soldout]

First, about Christians saying that this forum is for christians only. I didn't see a sign on the door if the admins would like to add one. I'll gladly stay out. Otherwise I view this as a board of opinions and I am just as free to give mine as any fundy.

What religion do you adhere to if I may ask?

Second
De Maria I think you need to study history a bit more before you go around saying that Christmas traditions are christian in origin. The early germans before they were christionized had a festival at Yule. This festival was to celebrate the great hunt of Odin(the god of the germans at the time also a large man with a white beard). The children would put their boots by the fireplace and fill them with carrots, straw and sugar for Odin's flying horse. In return Odin would leave the children presents for the kindness that they had done. Sounds familiar doesn't it. Didn't you ever wonder what St. Nick and the tree have to do with the birth of Christ?

You all just have to admitt it... lol You all love Christmas and its perks but because you all have low tolerance to what it stands for, you want come up with a way to justfuly your participation in the Season. Because the bottom line is that it is irrelevant where the roots of the Christmas festival came from but what matters is that those tradtions were adopted by Christians for purpose of celebrating the Birth of Christ and this has been established for hundreds of years. So unless you worship the Sun god or Odin, (or what ever pagon religion from which the tradition is adapted) you are actually celebrating Jesus if you participate in going to see Santa, Christmas tree light.. etc Because all those traditions were adopted centuaries ago by Christians. Had Christians not adpted the traditions, they would not be present in modern times. And FYI St Nick is a Christian SAINT and the stars and angles you put on your christmas tree are religious symbols.

[NeedKarma]

Cool, I'm now a full-fledged christian.

[ordinaryguy]

Oh, I guess you don't know?

The term "Happy Holidays" was not offensive before the 1960's.

And it still isn't, except to a few hypersensitive people with a big chip on their shoulder.

Before the 1960's, when a Christian said, Happy Holidays, he meant, Happy Christmas holidays.

Suddenly, in the 1960's there was a left wing movement using fear and intimidation to censor Christians by removing the mention of Christ in the Public and Private forum. In public schools, prayer was forbidden. In the private sector, the ACLU and other left wing groups began suing people who said "Merry Christmas."

You are confusing the issue of government-sponsored actions that promote and establish Christianity with the issue of freedom of speech for private individuals and organizations.

So, although some well meaning nonChristians believe that using the term "Happy Holidays" is an inclusive term, in reality, the ACLU has made it an exclusion of Christmas.

Suddenly Happy Holidays no longer mean Merry Christmas but something totally foreign to Christmas.

If you want to attach an anti-Christian meaning to the term, I suppose you can do that, but don't blame the ACLU for it. They don't have that much influence.

It has gotten to the point where a minority of people are trying to control the thoughts and expressions of the majority of people. That is not supposed to happen in a free republic. You might see that in a communist state or in a dictatorship, but not in a democratic government which is ruled by majority vote.

Some people opt for a greeting that includes everyone, while others insist that their Holy day should be the only one to be acknowledged, even by (and to) people who don't celebrate it. So who's trying to control whom?

Christians are beginning to reassert their right to celebrate their Holy Days by saying Merry Christmas.

This right is not under attack, and never has been.

Happy Holidays used to include Christmas.

And it still does, by widely-shared usage and any reasonable definition. Your insistence that it doesn't is preposterous.

But if you are no longer permitted to mention Christmas then the new redefinition of Happy Holidays excludes Christmas.

No one is being prevented from mentioning Christmas, and no such redefinition of Happy Holidays has occurred.

No, it's the censorship of the simple expression "Merry Christmas" and the redefinition of a long tradition wherein Happy Holy Days meant exactly what it has always meant, "Happy Christmas Holidays".

No one is being censored, and no such redefinition has occurred.

I am not offended by those who say, "Happy Holidays" in good faith.

Then I trust that you will temper the tone of your future communications to avoid the misunderstandings that have occurred here.

I am offended by those who want to censor my right to say, "Merry Christmas"..

No one is trying to censor your right, and you are not being persecuted. You have the freedom to greet others and observe the holiday in any way that suits you.

[ordinaryguy]

Soldout disagrees: Christmas has always been traditionally exclusively celebrated In the US.

Even if this statement were factually correct, which it isn't, what would be your point? That people of other faiths are unwelcome here? That if they do come here they shouldn't expect their beliefs and traditions to be respected and recognized? What?

[Soldout]

Even if this statement were factually correct, which it isn't, what would be your point? That people of other faiths are unwelcome here? That if they do come here they shouldn't expect their beliefs and traditions to be respected and recognized? What?

It is an obvious fact that Christmas has been the most prominently celebrated traditionally in the US. & if you don't know that you are just in denial. It is only in recent years that people like you are whining about Christmas being more recognised than other minority religious festivals and demanding that people say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. Other religions have their own celebrations during the year and no one harasses them about anything. But because the spirit of the world despises Christ and Christians, anytime we want to celebrate our religious holiday people want to force us to call it something else. How come when Jewish people have Yom Kipper and Muslims have Ramadan, no one utters a word of complain? I don't see anyone causing such a controversy about it. Like I said before, democracy means majority rules. Christians are a majority in Christian Holidays are going to be more prominent. If you take offense to that then you can move to a country where the majority are atheist, muslim or what ever religious beliefs you subscribe to.