[De Maria]

Nah, other countries are equal or better - Canada for instance.

Too cold.

That seems to be a dominant theme for you. Have you ever travelled somewhere where you were the minority?

This very country. Abortion is the law of the land. Most Christians believe abortion is murder of the unborn.

We, responsible Christians, will continue to work through the Political System and the Law to have that overturned.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[NeedKarma]

That's what I figured. Travelling and meeting people from different religions, beliefs, colours, races, ethicities, etc. truly broadens the horizon. Living in fear of change is like being in your own little prison.

Us non-religious persons are also working towards making sure that no one religion or theocracy dominates.

[kp2171]

several years ago, disappointed over the retail push to have christmas stuff out starting in late sept, early oct at the latest, my wife and I started calling the corporate holiday marathon Christhankoween.

now, every year, when the blinking lights and ornaments are being shelved next to the back to school clearance racks, we blandly and coldy say

"oh goody. its Christhankoween already."

=P

but then I'm an irritable, cranky, judgemental hack and it gives me another thing to complain about.

[NeedKarma]

Happy Festivus!

[margog85]

De Maria:

I will make one final attempt to say my piece here, and leave it at that. I really don’t have the time and energy to say the same thing in 10 different ways, hoping to make myself clear, and then have what I say picked apart condescendingly by you. This, therefore, is my final post on the mater.

You accuse me of not being happy in the U.S. and basically indicate that since I’m not happy, I should just leave. I stated that I disagree with that mentality (‘if you don’t like it, leave’) and you pick at my use of the word ‘necessarily’... to make what point, I’m not quite sure... perhaps to paint me as wishy-washy and not saying what I mean? Whatever the reason for your comment may be, my belief is this: in certain situations, circumstances in a country can become unbearable and all hope of progress in the foreseeable future is lost- at which point, walking away may be justifiable. Until that point of hopelessness is reached, however, it is our duty as citizens of a democracy to stand up for our beliefs and work to make changes that we feel are for the betterment of our society and our country.

I have never once made a statement in this discussion in which I ‘beat up America in comparison to other countries’- if I remember correctly, it was YOU who drew the comparison of the U.S. to other countries- and I did not respond that other countries were better or worse, but simply that I am happy in the U.S. but that, as with any society, there are imperfections and things with which I am not entirely pleased, and stated my belief that it is the responsibility of each citizen to work for the changes they wish to see.

Do not try to make me out as ‘anti-American’ because I believe that religious holidays need not be recognized by corporations (which exploit the holiday and distort the true meaning anyway). If you think that an attack on my credibility by painting me as ‘unpatriotic’, or acting as though you are a victim to my relentless personal attacks, will sway people into agreeing with your perspective, you are wrong.

‘Again you accuse me of imposing beliefs on someone? Is it just your style or do you not know how to articulate your sentences to say what you actually mean? Or do you not understand what I’m saying?

I have made every effort to keep this discussion civil and respectful- there is absolutely no need for the condescending tone in this response. Your original statement was ‘All freedoms have a limit. The right to be married is limited by the sex of the individuals being married. That is what I believe.’ To which I responded that while that is your belief, it should not be imposed upon others who do not share your belief (by this belief being law, the belief IS imposed upon those who disagree). Maybe I should not fault you for your inability to understand, though... you simply may lack the ability to comprehend the difference between the statement ‘which you feel should be imposed upon others who do not share your belief’ (and see that law based on religious morals IS an imopsition of specific moral beliefs upon non-believers) and your accusation that I said ‘you are imposing your beliefs upon others’.

Religious beliefs should not play a role in the determination of laws for those who do not share those religious beliefs- doing so converts religious moral law to federal and/or state law, and therefore makes our country a theocracy. You make the absurd accusation that I would ‘be real happy if [I] could impose [my] beliefs on everyone’- an extremely idiotic and ignorant statement. If this were the case, I would be doing what oh so many Christians do… trying to enact a law prohibiting straight people from marrying- telling straight people that they can either find a nice person of the same sex and settle down, be alone, or settle for a relationship that deserves no legal recognition.

Instead, I believe there should be equality and that religious beliefs should not impact federal or state law- if you don’t agree that gay marriage is 'right', if it’s against your religious beliefs, then don’t marry someone of the same sex. Plain and simple. But don’t think that others, who do believe that gay marriage is fine based on their religious beliefs, or even based upon secular moral beliefs that reinforce a respect for the equality of all people, should be limited in legal protection and unable to marry the person they love. THAT is the imposition of the beliefs of one group upon another that does not share those beliefs. Whether you want to call it that or not, is up to you. But do not turn around and make accusations of me trying to impose my beliefs upon anyone. I think it is clear to any intelligent individual who has been following this discussion that that is far from the truth.

Once again, I am not getting any further into the gay marriage debate here, it is off topic. I will discuss this with you in another thread should you choose to start it, but I will not debate you on this issue in a thread relating to the asinine insistence that everyone everywhere, regardless of their religious belief should wish everyone everywhere a Merry Christmas, even if the person they are wishing it to doesn’t celebrate the holiday. It makes no sense. It's illogical.

If there is any issue to be fought here by Christias, it should be the COMMERCIALIZATION of your sacred holiday, not that the companies which are exploiting your religious tradition of exchanging gifts (a tradition stolen from the Pagan religions, mind you) say the holiday by name. You have the right to protest whatever you like- and I have the right to tell you that I think it’s ludicrous that of all things, THIS is a major issue for many Christians this time of year.

[De Maria]

De Maria:

I will make one final attempt to say my piece here, and leave it at that.. .

Are you sure?

You accuse me of not being happy in the U.S. and basically indicate that since I’m not happy, I should just leave. I stated that I disagree with that mentality (‘if you don’t like it, leave’) and you pick at my use of the word ‘necessarily’... to make what point, I’m not quite sure...

To make the point that in some cases you believe people should leave if they don't like the country in which they live. Its an anchor point. Establishing a point of agreement. You made it sound as though we disagree completely. As though leaving was altogether bad. But you did not make an absolute stance, since "necessarily" is absolute then 'not" necessarily is not..

perhaps to paint me as wishy-washy and not saying what I mean?

Well, yeah. The thought had crossed my mind.

Whatever the reason for your comment may be, my belief is... walking away may be justifiable.

My point exactly. It is obvious that our forefathers in this country left their homeland for that very reason.

Until that point of hopelessness is reached, however, it is our duty as citizens of a democracy to stand up for our beliefs and work to make changes that we feel are for the betterment of our society and our country.

And you see, coming from you that's sounds strange. Because you seem to object to Christians trying make things better for society and our country.

Ask yourself this question. If you don't care whether a person says "Happy Holidays" or "Merry Christmas", then why do you object when a Christian wants to say Merry Christmas?

And if you do care when one says "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays", why don't you understand when others care about it as well?

In this country we have the freedom to care. If you object to someone being vocal, then why only when Christians are vocal do you object? Why not when nonChristains are vocal?

I have never once made a statement in this discussion in which I ‘beat up America in comparison to other countries’-...

That's good. I simply made an explanation as to why I made the statement originally.

Do not try to make me out as ‘anti-American’... will sway people into agreeing with your perspective, you are wrong.

No actually. I'm just pointing out that you are very prone to tell people what you believe but you object vehemently when anyone expresses a belief which disagrees with yours.

I have made every effort to keep this discussion civil and respectful- there is absolutely no need for the condescending tone in this response. Your original statement was ‘All freedoms have a limit. The right to be married is limited by the sex of the individuals being married. That is what I believe.’

Note that I punctuated that with, "that is what I believe." Not with, "that is what you should believe". Therefore, I am simply informing you on where I stand on the matter.

If you feel that is an imposition of my belief upon yours, then where is the basis for a civil discussion? I can't speak my mind. Whenever I do, I am accused of imposing my belief.

To which I responded that while that is your belief, it should not be imposed upon others who do not share your belief (by this belief being law, the belief IS imposed upon those who disagree).

Well, you didn't quite quote yourself. You kind of tweaked the language a bit to make it more palatable. Your exact words were:

And that is your belief, based upon Christian morality, which you feel should be imposed upon others who may not share your belief. I don't want to get into this topic here, it's completely unrelated. But evidently just another instance of the imposition of Christian morality upon secular culture.

Maybe I should not fault you for your inability to understand, though... you simply may lack the ability to comprehend the difference between the statement ‘which you feel should be imposed upon others who do not share your belief’ (and see that law based on religious morals IS an imopsition of specific moral beliefs upon non-believers) and your accusation that I said ‘you are imposing your beliefs upon others’.

Uh? I think it is the other way around. I see a great big difference in the population getting together and peacefully voting whose belief will be implemented by majority rule AND the idea that I am imposing my belief upon anybody.

Have you ever heard of the term, "democracy"? That means we arrive at decisions based on voting. That means that the minority should not impose their will upon the majority. Its not a perfect system, but it works better than any other democracy or other government in the world today. In my opinion.

Religious beliefs should not play a role in the determination of laws...

I don't agree. Our religious beliefs, or lack thereof are intimate parts of our being. We can't shed them and act as though we believe one thing at one time and another thing the next.

Just as you have stated that you believe in standing up for your nonreligious beliefs, we believe in standing up for our religious beliefs.

And that seems to be your only problem. You don't mind imposing your beliefs on others. But you don't even want to consider that a majority of people might come to agreement on a Christian ethic as a part of our rule of law.

You make the absurd accusation that I would ‘be real happy if [I] could impose [my] beliefs on everyone’- an extremely idiotic and ignorant statement.

Which you don't find quite idiotic or ignorant when you make the same accusation towards me? Very interesting.

If this were the case, I would be doing what oh so many Christians do…

In other words, you believe everyone should be apathetic. You want Christians to quit trying to make the world better as they see fit.

Instead, I believe there should be equality and that religious beliefs should not impact federal or state law-

And I believe they should.

if you don’t agree that gay marriage is 'right', if it’s against your religious beliefs,.

Well, this is way off topic, but the argument isn't as simple as you make it. And the fact is that all rights have their limits. And imposing homosexuality upon society would be just that, an "imposition" to something which is against our very nature.

THAT is the imposition of the beliefs of one group upon another that does not share those beliefs.

And again, if homosexuals gather enough strength to change society's opinion, they can change the law. Just as abortionists have changed the law in their favor.

Whether you want to call it that or not, is up to you. But do not turn around and make accusations of me trying to impose my beliefs upon anyone. I think it is clear to any intelligent individual who has been following this discussion that that is far from the truth.

I too will let reasonable people decide.

Once again, I am not getting any further into the gay marriage debate here, it is off topic.

Agreed.

I will discuss this with you in another thread should you choose to start it, but I will not debate you on this issue in a thread relating to the asinine insistence that everyone everywhere, regardless of their religious belief should wish everyone everywhere a Merry Christmas, even if the person they are wishing it to doesn’t celebrate the holiday. It makes no sense. It's illogical.

Again, you are characterising me as making an "asinine insistence that everyone everywhere, irregardless of their religious belief should wish everyone everywhere a Merry Christmas, even if the person they are wishing it to doesn’t celebrate the holiday."

Obviously, anyone who reads my statements will see that my only insistence is that Christians also have the right to object and that Christians should also vote wth their dollars.

If there is any issue to be fought here by Christias, it should be the COMMERCIALIZATION of your sacred holiday,

Which we do.

not that the companies which are exploiting your religious tradition of exchanging gifts (a tradition stolen from the Pagan religions, mind you)

Not true. It is a strictly Christian tradition. Just because pagans may have also done something similar does not mean we copied them.

However, even if we did, which we didn't, what's the harm? And, what do you care? You aren't Christian.

say the holiday by name. You have the right to protest whatever you like- and I have the right to tell you that I think it’s ludicrous that of all things, THIS is a major issue for many Christians this time of year.

Actually, its not a MAJOR issue.. Its an annoyance. Its like someone coming to your birthday party and ignoring you. Or like someone, not the bride, coming to the wedding dressed all in white. Hey, its our [B]Holy Day[/B In fact, its our "Holy Season". If certain stores don't want to recognize it, we'll spend our dollars with those that will.

That;s freedom!

As for major issues. Feeding the hungry, caring for the sick and visiting the lonely. Those are major Christian issues.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

That's what I figured. Travelling and meeting people from different religions, beliefs, colours, races, ethicities, etc. truly broadens the horizon. Living in fear of change is like being in your own little prison.

Living in a metropolitan town helps also.

What change are you afraid of?

Us non-religious persons are also working towards making sure that no one religion or theocracy dominates.

That is fine. Please stick to legal means to do so.

[kp2171]

We, responsible Christians, will continue to work through the Political System and the Law to have that overturned.

De Maria

OK... no matter how I feel about all the other points in this fray, you just cannot whine about how those who aren't happy in this country won't leave, and then state proudly that you are happy to stay here and fight for what you believe through the political system.

You just got to drop the "if you dont like it leave" angle you threw in there. It weakens your argument.

Every time I hear that... and most of the time lately its someone b!tching about how people who are against the war are against the country and should leave... it just makes me think of 5th grade debate.

As a Christian, itd be personally nice for others to wish me a Merry Christmas, since thatd mean I was around others who believed as me, but I'm not getting my panties in a wad cause somebody tells me happy holidays. If a gay man wants to celebrate Felis Navidude I couldn't care less.

My son will learn about God through his family and his church. I don't need his school or his favorite toystore to indoctrinate him in any religious beliefs.

[De Maria]

De Maria I think you need to read my sig and my posts a little more carefully. You have twice, in two separate threads taken what I've said and looked at it in a way that I have a negative view or hatred of Christians, or that I wish to take other's rights away. Nothing in my post about protests indicated whatsoever that I felt Christians shouldn't have the same rights as others, so please stop trying to paint me as someone who applies freedoms unequally. I said very clearly in my first post of the things Christians specifically were doing, I never said they shouldn't do them, so for you to ask if I think Christians should not be allowed to protest and then say "That's what I wanted you to say" is ridiculous and pompous. Read more carefully and you will understand the messages instead of reading what you THINK I'm saying and trying to stir up trouble.

You've just confirmed that my simple words, "that is what I wanted you to say" were right on the money. I meant that I simiply wanted you to clarify your stance. Previously you sounded very one-sided. But when you specified that you believed in those freedoms also for Christians, that is what I wanted you to say. In other words, there is no argument there.

You've done it again with "are you insinuating that only Christians do childish things?". Where in my post, in ANY post did I say or indicate that?

See the little "?" at the end. That means it's a question. Since all you mentioned were Christians misbehaving, I wanted you to clarify whether you are insinuating that only Christians misbehave?

A simple "no" would have sufficed.

And passing off the information I passed on about pages being torn from books as "one person's allegations" and there is no "proof" implies you think either 1. I'm a liar or 2. The staff at my county library is full of liars. But you apparently think everyone is "out to get the Christians" so of course this must be made up.

I guess I need more than a stranger's say so on the internet. I'm sorry if you think that means I am accusing you of lying. But I've met quite a few people who make unsubstantiated statements. Now, if you could point to a headline or a news article or some tangible proof that Christians are known to go into your library and tear up books, then I'll be more likely to believe it.

Just last week I was in a debate with an atheist who said that "all intelligent people in this century were atheist". I challenged that statement and she got all bent out of shape. But it seems strange to me that only atheists should be intelligent and only Christians tear books apart in libraries.

Either way, I no longer wish to discuss things with you, as you are rude and try to provoke people. Consider yourself officially added to my "ignore" list.

Thanks. I reserve the right to respond to any anti-Christian messages you might write however.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

OK... no matter how I feel about all the other points in this fray, you just cannot whine about how those who aren't happy in this country won't leave, and then state proudly that you are happy to stay here and fight for what you believe through the political system.

Like you are whining now?

you just got to drop the "if you dont like it leave" angle you threw in there. It weakens your argument.

I don't think so.

every time I hear that... and most of the time lately its someone b!tching about how people who are against the war are against the country and should leave... it just makes me think of 5th grade debate.

That wasn't my point though, was it? When you decide to discuss what I actually said, let me know.

as a Christian, itd be personally nice for others to wish me a Merry Christmas, since thatd mean I was around others who believed as me, but I'm not getting my panties in a wad cause somebody tells me happy holidays. If a gay man wants to celebrate Felis Navidude I couldn't care less.

But your panties are in a wad because others don't act like you? Are you setting yourself up as the example we should all follow?

my son will learn about God through his family and his church. I don't need his school or his favorite toystore to indoctrinate him in any religious beliefs.

That's great. But that is pretty much off topic. There's another thread on prayer in school or you can start one of your own.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[kp2171]

I'm whining by pointing out how you are using a double standard in your argument when you wonder why people who are unhappy with the state of affairs in the US just don't leave?

Really? That's ALL you have?? The "im not but you are" rubber-glue playground argument?

Know what? you are right.

Though I agree with a lot of what you say, you are absolutely correct. You have the right to lace your discussions with faulty reasoning and bad logic. Its like the person with bad breath that is speaking useful things but you just can't stand to be near them. Oh well. Never mind. Carry on...

[ordinaryguy]

really? thats ALL you have??? the "im not but you are" rubber-glue playground arguement?

Yes, that is all she has. I smell a thread closure looming.

[jillianleab]

Yes, that is all she has. I smell a thread closure looming.

I was thinking the same thing. The word "troll" is also coming to mind, but maybe that's just me...

[De Maria]

I'm whining by pointing out how you are using a double standard in your argument when you wonder why people who are unhappy with the state of affairs in the US just don't leave?

Really? That's ALL you have?? The "im not but you are" rubber-glue playground argument?

I think you are projecting. Its kind of hard to debate intelligently with "got your panties tied in a knot" type comments. Since you had nothing more intelligent to contribute, I simply gave you the old faithful, "back at ya" response.

So, the old rubber glue playground response is still handy when someone makes juvenile comments.

know what? you are right.

I know.

though I agree with a lot of what you say, you are absolutely correct. You have the right to lace your discussions with faulty reasoning and bad logic.

Point out the faulty reasoning and bad logic. Please make sure and quote me. It seems a trait of the folks on this board to make up arguments and attribute them to their opponents in order to pretend to win an argument.

its like the person with bad breath that is speaking useful things but you just can't stand to be near them. Oh well. Never mind. Carry on...

There you go again. Back at you, fella.

[De Maria]

Yes, that is all she has. I smell a thread closure looming.

He.

If you can close it, do so.

[De Maria]

I was thinking the same thing. The word "troll" is also coming to mind, but maybe that's just me....

No, I thought so too.

[Soldout]

I really disagree with a lot of the anger and frustration revolving around this issue.

Here in the US, your can NO LONGER PRETEND TO BE MARTYRS FOR YOUR BELIEFS. THE WORLD IS NOT OUT TO GET YOU. STOP LOOKING FOR SOMETHING TO COMPLAIN ABOUT!

Nobody is picking on you by trying to include others who don't agree with you or share your beliefs. Nobody is putting down your holiday by not saying it by name- they're simply acknowledging the fact that our country is not a Theocracy, not everyone celebrates Christmas- so why make that assumption?

People who are shopping at this time of year could be doing so for a number of reasons- how is a store associate supposed to know what religion each customer they encounter is a member of, which holiday each customer celebrates and how to adequately wish that customer an enjoyable holiday season? And, on top of that, why give the associate a hard time? If you're so against the consumerism of the season, why would you put a minimum wage over-worked employee through hell for a policy that they didn't implement, and which they would likely lose their jobs for breaking? That's just the spirit of christmas these days, I suppose, hmm?

I would think it odd for someone to wish me a merry christmas if I were in a store- how do they know I'm not Jewish? Muslim? Or hell, even an atheist?

I would be insulted that someone would make an assumption about my religious beliefs, and actually am happy that people use more generic terms when wishing me well. In a situation where we don't have much time to get to know someone on a personal level, a wish of happiness during a season where many people are celebrating SOMETHING is welcome in my book.

Demanding that everyone acknowledge that it's the CHRISTMAS season implies that there is very little respect for those of other religious beliefs- while it may be the christmas season for you, it is NOT for everyone else. When do others get to demand, say, the Happy Chaunnuka they deserve? Are their beliefs not as signifcant as yours?

Why people focus so much on this is beyond me. Do you think Jesus would really give two s if people said 'Merry Christmas', 'Happy Channuka', 'Happy Ramadan', 'Happy Quanza', 'Happy Winter Solstice'... as long as they were being good to one another, loving eachother, and wishing eachother well? Would Jesus become as irate as many Christians I've seen over this issue?

We have no right and no place to mandate the religious beliefs of others- nor to mandate the holidays other people celebrate- so why make generalizations that may offend others? If you're offended by not being acknowledge directly, imagine the offense to those who are directly excluded in a 'Merry Christmas' wish-

Please.

I really think that there are bigger battles to fight than this, don't you?

I case you haven't noticed Christ is the reason for the season. For those who are not Christian and hate Christians you can pretend the holiday does not exist. Don't put decorations on your house, don't buy a christmas tree and don't get you kids presents and you can also go to work on the 25th. I don't understand why other religions or athiests are trying to dilute a christian celebration by trying to make it their own by saying Happy holiday. What is the Holiday for, I will tell you it is about the birth of our savior. If you don't believe in Him & it bothers you, lock yourself up in your house and cpme out on the 26th when the season is over. For every Holiday there is a reason! 4th of July -Independence, verterans day, memorial day etc all have reason for the day. The reason for the 25th of December is to celebrate the birth of Christ. It is not just a "holiday" for no reason.

[Soldout]

That's what I figured. Travelling and meeting people from different religions, beliefs, colours, races, ethicities, etc. truly broadens the horizon. Living in fear of change is like being in your own little prison.

Us non-religious persons are also working towards making sure that no one religion or theocracy dominates.

I am a Christian and I have been to 12 different countries on all 5 contenets so I am more likely than not more exposed than you are. So don't equate athiesim to being open minded because I can argue that atheist are the most close minded people on the planet. But I won't go there.

[NeedKarma]

So vindictive. Why?

[De Maria]

margog85 agrees: Apparently, it is the Christian way. To be condescending, self-righteous, and always see the ways they are 'victimized' by society.

You continually make statements such as these. That is a clear example of anti-Christian bigotry.

This is clear evidence, that if Christians feel victimized, it is because of people like you.