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Ultra Member
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Nov 23, 2007, 08:21 PM
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 Originally Posted by De Maria
I said taught, not forced upon. And remember, if you've been reading my messages, I believe that the parents are the ultimate teachers of their children and the schools should be extension of the parents. That means that I don't approve of children being taught anything against their parents' will.
Which happen also to be Commandments. Thou shalt not kill and thou shalt honor thy father and mother. So, what, you want to teach 8 out of the 10 Commandments?
Now if I'm the parent in question and I want the Public Schools to teach the Commandments, I want them to teach the complete set. The rest of the Commandments make no sense without the first, to love God with all your heart and soul, upon which all Commandments are based.
Sincerely,
De Maria
De Maria, you are clearly missing the point and do not understand why religion is not taught nor does (should) it have a presence in schools.
For one, parents don't determine a school's curriculum, therefore it doesn't matter if the parents want the ten commandments taught in school or the story or Adam and Eve - it's not up to them. It's up to the school board. If you are a parent and want your child to know the ten commandments, teach them yourself. Leave the school out of it. If you don't want to teach it, send your child to church. Leave the school out of it. I'm sure you would object to your child's school teaching the 11 Satanic Rules of the Earth, even though most of them consist of pretty good behaviors (such as not harming children). If you'd like to read them all, here's a link:
Eleven Rules of the Earth
I disagree that schools should be an extension of parents - I think it should be the other way around. It is up to the school to facilitate functional and informational knowledge (reading, writing, 'rithmatic) and it is up to the parents to reinforce that knowledge (helping children with homework, encouraging them to read, etc). Morality should be taught at home, not at school.
I'm well aware that listening to your parents and not killing people is part of the ten commandments, which is why I specifically referenced those points. THOSE behaviors benefit and apply to ALL not to a specific religious group. Not to mention murder is illegal and ought to be taught as a part of law or government class. The ten commandments have nothing to do with it. But if you prefer, yes, I only want those commandments taught - not ten, just two (you might want to check your math above, btw). But I don't want them called "2 of the 10 commandments" I want them to be called, "Ways to be a good person in any society on earth".
And sorry, but what kind of world do you live in that "Don't kill people" doesn't make sense without prefacing it with "Do not worship other gods"?
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Ultra Member
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Nov 25, 2007, 11:03 AM
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I would LOVE to have certain things taught in school. I know that is not realistic. So, should prayer be allowed in school?
Well, if my daughter wants to pray - then I think she should. Should she stop class to do it? No. Not in a public school.
But she is taught to say her blessing at meal times, she is taught if she is struggling or scared, to pray about it. So, if she needs to talk to God, she does. Is a big production made of it? No. She can quietly pray or just say the prayer in her head.
You can't govern what thoughts are running through someone's head.
And she does have Christian jewlery. She has a cross necklace and a ten commandments bracelet and has worn both to school. Nothing was ever said about it and I didn't think much of it until someone said something here.
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Ultra Member
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Nov 25, 2007, 11:52 AM
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NowWhat I think your daughter praying quietly or in her head is great; and it's great you recognize she should be able to do so without disturbing classtime or other students around her.
The thing about the jewelry was only made a big deal because the school has (or had, I don't know if they still do) a no-jewelry policy. I think such a policy is silly myself, and see no problem with students wearing necklaces, bracelets, etc. But, I'm not in charge of the school! :)
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Ultra Member
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Nov 26, 2007, 08:32 AM
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 Originally Posted by jillianleab
De Maria, you are clearly missing the point
No. I understand the point perfectly. I disagree with the point you are making.
and do not understand why religion is not taught
I understand precisely why religion is not taught in Public School. I disagree with the arguments.
nor does (should) it have a presence in schools.
I believe it should be prominent again.
For one, parents don't determine a school's curriculum,
But they should.
therefore it doesn't matter if the parents want the ten commandments taught in school or the story or Adam and Eve - it's not up to them. It's up to the school board. If you are a parent and want your child to know the ten commandments, teach them yourself. Leave the school out of it. If you don't want to teach it, send your child to church. Leave the school out of it. I'm sure you would object to your child's school teaching the 11 Satanic Rules of the Earth, even though most of them consist of pretty good behaviors (such as not harming children). If you'd like to read them all, here's a link:
Eleven Rules of the Earth
What we have here is a case of "straw man" argument. You build up a false case and attribute it to me and then tear it down.
I did not say and never have said that any religion should be forced on anybody. If the school which you theorize comprises Satanists and they decide to teach their children Satanism, I believe it is their right to do so.
I disagree that schools should be an extension of parents
And that is the true quarrel here. We are on opposite poles if that is your stance. I do not believe that my children are mine only part of the time. They are always mine whether send them to Public, private or any other type of school and the teachers should do as I say.
It is the classic case of the customer is always right. We pay for a product, the education of our children in the way we see fit. But the government, our servant, usurps our children and strips them of the values which we wish to be instilled in them.
- I think it should be the other way around. It is up to the school to facilitate functional and informational knowledge (reading, writing, 'rithmatic) and it is up to the parents to reinforce that knowledge (helping children with homework, encouraging them to read, etc). Morality should be taught at home, not at school.
I disagree. Parents are ultimately responsible for their children. Parents raise children in their own traditions and values. They don't want their children to become strangers to them.
Schools should be providing a servcie for the parents. Instead of usurping the parents' rights.
I'm well aware that listening to your parents and not killing people is part of the ten commandments, which is why I specifically referenced those points. THOSE behaviors benefit and apply to ALL not to a specific religious group. Not to mention murder is illegal and ought to be taught as a part of law or government class. The ten commandments have nothing to do with it. But if you prefer, yes, I only want those commandments taught - not ten, just two (you might want to check your math above, btw). But I don't want them called "2 of the 10 commandments" I want them to be called, "Ways to be a good person in any society on earth".
And you have the right to have your child taught the way you want. But I want my children to be taught the way I want. That is, in fact, why my wife and I teach our children at home.
And sorry, but what kind of world do you live in that "Don't kill people" doesn't make sense without prefacing it with "Do not worship other gods"?
I was atheist before I was Christian. I believed in abortion, euthanasia and selective killing of any type to advance the human race.
In the "dog game" it is called "culling". Have you ever heard the term, "cull the herd"?
Since these techniques seem to work with getting a better breed of animal, I figgered they would work with getting a better breed of human.
Without God, there is no reason not to kill. Your only limit is your conscience, or the lack thereof.
Sincerely,
De Maria
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Uber Member
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Nov 26, 2007, 08:47 AM
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 Originally Posted by De Maria
I did not say and never have said that any religion should be forced on anybody. If the school which you theorize is comprised of Satanists and they decide to teach their children Satanism, I believe it is their right to do so.
The same right is given to you: if the school you theorize comprises your denomination of christians and they decide to teach their children your brand of christianity, I believe it is their right to do so.
 Originally Posted by De Maria
Parents are ultimately responsible for their children. Parents raise children in their own traditions and values. They don't want their children to become strangers to them.
Schools should be providing a servcie for the parents. Instead of usurping the parents' rights.
On the one hand you want the schools to be partly responsible to raise your children but then you say that parents are ultimately responsible. Which is it? You and your wife cannot do this on your own as millions of others do? I don't feel that any school usurps my parental rights.
 Originally Posted by De Maria
And you have the right to have your child taught the way you want. But I want my children to be taught the way I want. That is, in fact, why my wife and I teach our children at home.
So why not send your children to a christian school then? It would appear that your have an issue with government schooling in its entirety. You should probably start your own thread then.
 Originally Posted by De Maria
Without God, there is no reason not to kill. Your only limit is your conscience, or the lack thereof.
I have no god yet I have no inkling to kill, there are millions like me, how do you explain that?
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Uber Member
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Nov 26, 2007, 09:08 AM
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Hello again, De Maria:
I misspoke earlier when I said you don't have a clue. You DO. I like your argument. In fact, I agree with you for the most part.
The problem is that with PUBLIC education, we can't have a jillion different schools teaching a jillion different things. The public (you) DOES have the right to say what is taught in school. They (you) do so by their local school boards.
If your public schools aren't teaching your children what YOU want them to, you have the right to take them out and home school them, just like you're doing. You also have the right to say that the schools are wrong. You also have the right to try to change them more to your liking.
But, in reality, it's the only way to run a public school system. Unless, you have something better? Let's hear it?
excon
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Junior Member
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Nov 26, 2007, 09:13 AM
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I don't think it should be forced on children but prayers in school to some degree don't harm.
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Ultra Member
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Nov 26, 2007, 09:15 AM
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 Originally Posted by De Maria
I was atheist before I was Christian. I believed in abortion, euthanasia and selective killing of any type to advance the human race.
In the "dog game" it is called "culling". Have you ever heard the term, "cull the herd"?
Since these techniques seem to work with getting a better breed of animal, I figgered they would work with getting a better breed of human.
Without God, there is no reason not to kill. Your only limit is your conscience, or the lack thereof.
Selective killing of any type to advance the human race is not an atheistic belief - that was your own belief and one which I do not hold, nor do I know any other atheists who hold it. That belief demonstrates a lack of empathy, compassion and appreciation for others. It demonstrates a clear want for self-preservation only and in my opinion is not only disgusting, but also uncivilized. You would have thrived in Cuba where they force women to have abortions because the fetus has a genetic illness. Or perhaps you would have been an upstanding member of the Nazi party.
Without god there are plenty of reasons not to kill, my conscience is only one, and certainly not the primary one. I can't help it if when you were an atheist you had no morals. And to tell the truth, if those were your beliefs when you were an atheist, I'm glad you converted and I hope you never come back. People with those beliefs give all atheists a bad name and stregthen the (bad) argument that we have no values or morals.
Back to the school thing, I still don't think you fully realize WHY religion doesn't belong in public schools, but I'm through trying to explain it. Let's agree to disagree.
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Expert
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Nov 26, 2007, 10:12 AM
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I know of more situations where people have killed in the name of their god than situations where they have killed for the lack of a god.
If THAT is your argument--Hitler was Christian. So was the Spanish Inquisition. So were the Crusades, and those who burned witches in Salem.
And you wonder why I don't want kids to learn to be Christian in a public school?
I'm glad you teach your kids at home--then they are getting EXACTLY the education you want for them, including that of religion. However--the public school system comprises MANY religions, not just Christianity. Would you want ALL of those religions taught, to the detriment of reading, writing, math, and science?
Personally, I think that the education system is lacking in THOSE subjects--kids today as high school seniors don't know as much in those areas as kids 50 years ago did at the end of 8th grade, though they do have quite a bit more knowledge in more diverse subjects (computer science, as an example). While schools should not undermine the teachings of parents, neither do they have the obligation to teach kids to pray. That's a parent's obligation.
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Ultra Member
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Nov 26, 2007, 10:49 AM
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 Originally Posted by NeedKarma
The same right is given to you: if the school you theorize comprises your denomination of christians and they decide to teach their children your brand of christianity, I believe it is their right to do so.
OK
Did I say, "I want"?
the schools to be partly responsible to raise your children
It is a fact. Schools are given the responsibility of taking care of and raising the children during school hours.
but then you say that parents are ultimately responsible. Which is it?
Parents should be monitoring the schools to make sure their children are getting the education they expect. When business people hire employees, they monitor them to make sure they are behaving honestly and not taking or damaging their assets. I think most parents would agree that our children are our most precious assets. We should take at least as much care to ensure that the schools are acting responsibly towards them.
Because ultimately, in the end, it is the parents who will pay for any damage done to their children.
You and your wife cannot do this on your own as millions of others do?
I don't understand the question. It sounds more like a statement with a question mark at the end.
The fact is, we've raised two who never set foot in public school and are raising two more.
I don't feel that any school usurps my parental rights.
That is wonderful for you. Apparently you are getting what you want from the school system.
So why not send your children to a christian school then?
We homeschool.
It would appear that your have an issue with government schooling in its entirety.
No. I believe public schools have their place to serve in society. I don't think they are run very well anymore.
You should probably start your own thread then.
No thanks. I was just answering a question.
have no god yet I have no inkling to kill, there are millions like me, how do you explain that?
Not all people are as evil as I was. I know that as an atheist I came to believe those things. And as a Christian, I no longer believe those things.
Sincerely,
De Maria
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Ultra Member
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Nov 26, 2007, 10:52 AM
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 Originally Posted by jillianleab
Selective killing of any type to advance the human race is not an atheistic belief - that was your own belief and one which I do not hold, nor do I know any other atheists who hold it. That belief demonstrates a lack of empathy, compassion and appreciation for others. It demonstrates a clear want for self-preservation only and in my opinion is not only disgusting, but also uncivilized. You would have thrived in Cuba where they force women to have abortions because the fetus has a genetic illness. Or perhaps you would have been an upstanding member of the Nazi party.
Two atheist regimes.
Without god there are plenty of reasons not to kill, my conscience is only one, and certainly not the primary one. I can't help it if when you were an atheist you had no morals. And to tell the truth, if those were your beliefs when you were an atheist, I'm glad you converted and I hope you never come back. People with those beliefs give all atheists a bad name and stregthen the (bad) argument that we have no values or morals.
Atheists give atheists a bad name.
Back to the school thing, I still don't think you fully realize WHY religion doesn't belong in public schools, but I'm through trying to explain it. Let's agree to disagree.
Sounds like a good idea.
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Uber Member
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Nov 26, 2007, 10:59 AM
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 Originally Posted by De Maria
Atheists give atheists a bad name.
Comments like that must make the good christians shudder. We now know who we are dealing with. Thank you for outing yourself. And thank you for homeschooling your children.
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Expert
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Nov 26, 2007, 11:19 AM
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Actually, almost all of De Maria's comments make me shudder--and I'm not Christian.
It's the intolerance and rabid opinion that everyone should be taught Christianity in public schools that scares the heck out of me.
I stand by my original answer: Unless ALL religions are taught in public schools, NONE should be.
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Ultra Member
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Nov 26, 2007, 11:24 AM
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Is it intolerance? OR is it standing for what you believe?
It seems to me that when christians stand up for what they believe in - we get label with "intolerant". Why is that?
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Uber Member
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Nov 26, 2007, 11:28 AM
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Read my post above with the quote.
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Ultra Member
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Nov 26, 2007, 11:31 AM
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I guess I am slow today, forgive me, but do you think this poster is atheist?
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New Member
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Nov 26, 2007, 11:34 AM
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Well... woa. I guess I got my answers. I'm actually really, really glad people are debating over this. Thanks to all of you, so much, for your opinions. I'm happy to know that there are people out there who stand firmly by their beliefs, whatever they might be.
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Uber Member
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Nov 26, 2007, 11:38 AM
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 Originally Posted by NowWhat
I guess I am slow today, forgive me, but do you think this poster is atheist?
Doesn't matter, the comment was directed at the whole group.
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Ultra Member
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Nov 26, 2007, 11:40 AM
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I think I understand what you are getting at.
Because he "targeted" the whole group - he is intolerant. Right?
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Uber Member
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Nov 26, 2007, 11:42 AM
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Well he certainly doesn't care to be compassionate in any way.
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