[RustyFairmount]

It is entirely possible that the homosexual knows he is living a sinful life, yet he comes to church weekly to pray for help. To find a way to change. Provided he is not doing so in a disruptive way, any true Christian congregation must & will welcome him until his dying breath. Christ himself has show us this!

How are we to know that this man does not come to church every week with guilt on his heart and remorse in his soul? Can we read minds?? Just because a person hasn't yet stopped sinning, doesn't mean they won't some day find grace.

Seeking forgiveness is Christian. Denying the opportunity to receive forgiveness is not.

[campem2]

I just don't understand! There AREN'T degrees of sin. Someone who has gotten a divorce... thats directly talked about in the bible yet... theres people that have gotten divorces and still go to church! These people aren't shunned from the church. I don't understand everyone's thoughts that having sin means you can't go to church... where did that come from? I really can't type into words how I feel and what I'm thinking. I mean, some people have the right to not want to be friends with a gay person, but don't make it difficult or make it out to be a sin if someone else chooses to stay friends with the gay person. Turning your back is the last thing to do. Does getting kicked out of the church or "shunned" make you want to go back to church at all? NO. and so how would a gay person who is not allowed back to church allowed to repent or feel gods word tugging on their heart? When they're walking in the mall? Or hanging out with friends? Maybe while he's on a date with some other guy! Noones going to hear god in any of those situations! That's what church is a good place for... but if your kicked out, then I guess your just not allowed to feel the word of god. Maybe if a gay person were allowed in church then they might turn their life around! I recommend people read the book "fresh wind, fresh fire" about the brooklyn tabernacle and the wonderful acceptance they practice. They take gays, murderers and transexuals and see miraculous things happen in their lives. These people are given the chance to completely turn their life to the lord. Everyone is entitled to the word of the lord.

[silentrascal]

I just dont understand! There AREN'T degrees of sin. someone who has gotten a divorce...thats directly talked about in the bible yet...theres people that have gotten divorces and still go to church! these people arent shunned from the church. I dont understand everyones thoughts that having sin means you can't go to church...where did that come from? I really can't type into words how i feel and what im thinking. I mean, some people have the right to not want to be friends with a gay person, but dont make it difficult or make it out to be a sin if someone else chooses to stay friends with the gay person. turning your back is the last thing to do. does getting kicked out of the church or "shunned" make you want to go back to church at all? NO. and so how would a gay person who is not allowed back to church allowed to repent or feel gods word tugging on their heart? when theyre walking in the mall? or hanging out with friends? maybe while hes on a date with some other guy! noones going to hear god in any of those situations! thats what church is a good place for...but if your kicked out, then i guess your just not allowed to feel the word of god. maybe if a gay person were allowed in church then they might turn their life around! I recommend people read the book "fresh wind, fresh fire" about the brooklyn tabernacle and the wonderful acceptance they practice. they take gays, murderers and transexuals and see miraculous things happen in their lives. These people are given the chance to completely turn their life to the lord. Everyone is entitled to the word of the lord.

Oh please. There certainly are degrees of sin, otherwise there wouldn't be one particular one that's called "the unforgiveable sin" and there wouldn't be those that could keep people from inheriting the kingdom of God (according to Galatians). Divorce is a sin according to certain faiths... but it is NOT a sin according to the scriptures. While the Bible says that "God hates a divorcing", it also doesn't completely prohibit people from seeking one, but only on ONE ground alone: fornication. That's right, God may not like people to get divorced, but he does stipulate one permissible ground for someone getting divorced. If someone so chooses to divorce their mate because they cheated on them in some way, that is not considered a sin. Removing the person, or kicking them out of the congregation, is a practice that is scriptural. The first-century Christians were to remove from among them anyone who willfully practiced sin. That means that the person knows what they were doing was wrong and yet continued on that course. To remove the person is a form of discipline, yes, but with the purpose of keeping the rest of the congregation clean, and for hopefully causing the sinner to reconsider their course, as they see that they lose the association of their former friends because they adhere firmly to God's moral standards, and like God, do not accept that person's chosen course of life. If such a person does decide to reject their sinful life and turn around from it, they may attend the congregation services, but would have to do so on their own for a good length of time, time sufficient enough to show the congregation elders that they have changed and do desire to come back and live by God's standards. So the kicking the person out of the congregation doesn't have to be a permanent thing... it all comes down to the choice being made by the one practicing the gross sin.

[s_cianci]

I think your assessment of the situation is basically correct. We are all sinners so if your going to turn your back on a gay friend you need to turn your back on all of your friends. If one chooses not to be friends with this person because of his sexual orientation then that's their perrogative but it's not their perrogative to judge him. I would certainly hope that, if your friend is the christian he claims to be, that he wouldn't flaunt his sexuality and that he'd be totally abstinent as that is really the only way to abide by God's law, just like a heterosexual person has to be abstinent with all but their own spouse. Have you tried discussing your feelings with your youth pastor and your friends? Remember, it's not "feeing" gay that's wrong (in the absence of lusting), it's the actual sexual acts that are wrong. Just like heterosexual attraction in and of itself is not wrong (again, except for lusting, because when one lusts after another they've already committed the act in their heart if not literally), but engaging in heterosexual activity is wrong unless it's with your own spouse.

[s_cianci]

I don't believe we are to be around those who willfully choose to sin.

Had to spread it but I wanted to balance the reddies. I believe this statement to be correct. But, in keeping with the topic of the OP, it's also important to distinguish what acts are actually sinful. A person can have certain feelings for someone of the same sex that may be considered unnatural (and they are), but that in and of itself isn't sinful. To act on such feelings, either lustfully or in fact, that's where the line is crossed. As I also said previously, the same holds true even in the realm of heterosexuality. Just like when a young woman gets pregnant out of wedlock, having the baby isn't what's sinful, it's the act that led up to it that was the sin. Certain denominations (and I won't mention any names lol) will practically shun an unwed mother-to-be and all the focus is on the pregnancy, with no regard given to the act that led to it. There is nothing sinful at all about being pregnant, it's the act that brings it about. The unwed father isn't treated with the same kind of ostracism, which makes it very hypocritical. Similarly, a young woman who "does it" but doesn't get pregnant is totally overlooked. Clearly many people are quite confused about what is actually sinful and what isn't.

[sGt HarDKorE]

Campem as said above, talk to a minister or someone else besides us people who know nothing of the bible or the way god wants us to be, or else we would all have the same beliefs as christians.


This site only confuses you on topics like this because we usually get into debates instead of actually helping you. Email your pastor if you can. My church has a helping line for people who need help so yours may have one too.

I recommend to go off your personal opinions, that is why god let you think and gave you a heart. You know what's right and wrong, and in the end that's what it is going to be.

For me to ditch someone because of jut being gay, I think that is wrong. For trying to change someone, I believe that is wrong. The bible may not agree but, you do what you do. Your not encouraging him to be gay by being with him, your only being there for him when he is in need. That's what I would want, a friend who will be there with me till the end.

Most of these people don't have gay children, or family members so they still haven't been in your shoes, which is why you should not take what they say to heart.

Trust yourself more than just words from people you don't know.

[campem2]

Oh please. There certainly are degrees of sin, otherwise there wouldn't be one particular one that's called "the unforgiveable sin" and there wouldn't be those that could keep people from inheriting the kingdom of God (according to Galatians). Divorce is a sin according to certain faiths.......but it is NOT a sin according to the scriptures. While the Bible says that "God hates a divorcing", it also doesn't completely prohibit people from seeking one, but only on ONE ground alone: fornication. That's right, God may not like people to get divorced, but he does stipulate one permissible ground for someone getting divorced. If someone so chooses to divorce their mate because they cheated on them in some way, that is not considered a sin. Removing the person, or kicking them out of the congregation, is a practice that is scriptural. The first-century Christians were to remove from among them anyone who willfully practiced sin. That means that the person knows what they were doing was wrong and yet continued on that course. To remove the person is a form of discipline, yes, but with the purpose of keeping the rest of the congregation clean, and for hopefully causing the sinner to reconsider their course, as they see that they lose the association of their former friends because they adhere firmly to God's moral standards, and like God, do not accept that person's chosen course of life. If such a person does decide to reject their sinful life and turn around from it, they may attend the congregation services, but would have to do so on their own for a good length of time, time sufficient enough to show the congregation elders that they have changed and do desire to come back and live by God's standards. So the kicking the person out of the congregation doesn't have to be a permanent thing.....it all comes down to the choice being made by the one practicing the gross sin.

... have you read the new testament? Jesus came so that he could cover up our sins. Things have changed in the time of the old and new testament. I still think that there are not degrees of sin. The bible doesn't EVER say there are degrees of sin. It just says that blaspheming god is the worst... the others are sort of clumped together. But maybe you can show me some chart out there that shows me which sin is worse... so I know not to commit them. And that sounds like good advice sgt hardkore. Thanks.

[silentrascal]

......have you read the new testament? jesus came so that he could cover up our sins. things have changed in the time of the old and new testament. I still think that there are not degrees of sin. The bible doesnt EVER say there are degrees of sin. it just says that blaspheming god is the worst...the others are sort of clumped together. but maybe you can show me some chart out there that shows me which sin is worse...so i know not to commit them. and that sounds like good advice sgt hardkore. thanks.

If there's anyone out there more ignorant of the Bible than you are, please show me. The fact that there is one sin that's unforgivable... that mere fact alone... means there are degrees of sin. You can think all sins are the same, in fact many people do as an excuse to mitigate the things they've done or are doing, but in God's sight that's simply not true. An actual reading of the Bible would point that out.

[sGt HarDKorE]

silentrascal disagrees: Poor advice that's incredibly wrong.

What is wrong with my post, is this thread not just a debate of opinions?

And I was just giving my opinion. I was just explaining that from what I read on here, I get confused on a lot of topics and I was just letting the questioner know that. It's a lot easier to ask someone face to face.

[campem2]

If there's anyone out there more ignorant of the Bible than you are, please show me. The fact that there is one sin that's unforgivable......that mere fact alone.....means there are degrees of sin. You can think all sins are the same, in fact many people do as an excuse to mitigate the things they've done or are doing, but in God's sight that's simply not true. An actual reading of the Bible would point that out.

Oh. I'm sorry, I didn't know that you've actually ASKED god this question and he flat out told you the answer. I'm sorry but I grew up in church, my mom is a minister, my grandpa is a preacher... I don't know what to tell you. Ignorant of the bible? Ill admit I don't know everything, but I do know that no where in the bible does it say anything about degrees of sin. Again I ask... have you heard of the new testament? Things changed after jesus came around. Jesus was alive to save us from our sins. Meaning all that we do, all the wrong stuff that we all do, we just have to ask for forgiveness and we would receive it. Let me remind you of the ripping of the curtain at the temples. That ripping of the curtain represented the freedom we now have to freely ask for forgiveness. We don't have to admit our sins to anyone else and make sacrifices, we just have to ask god. Now, please give me scripture reference of where I can find the degrees of sin. I don't deny that there is ONE "unforgivable sin" but that's it... ONE. Show me where in the bible it says that murder is worse then adultery. Let me save you some trouble... it doesn't say that. Just because in our minds we give sins different degrees doesn't mean that god sees it that way.

[silentrascal]

oh. im sorry, i didnt know that youve actually ASKED god this question and he flat out told you the answer. I'm sorry but i grew up in church, my mom is a minister, my grandpa is a preacher....i dont know what to tell you. ignorant of the bible? ill admit i dont know everything, but i do know that no where in the bible does it say anything about degrees of sin. again i ask...have you heard of the new testament? things changed after jesus came around. jesus was alive to save us from our sins. meaning all that we do, all the wrong stuff that we all do, we just have to ask for forgiveness and we would receive it. let me remind you of the ripping of the curtain at the temples. that ripping of the curtain represented the freedom we now have to freely ask for forgiveness. we dont have to admit our sins to anyone else and make sacrifices, we just have to ask god. now, please give me scripture reference of where i can find the degrees of sin. I dont deny that there is ONE "unforgivable sin" but thats it...ONE. show me where in the bible it says that murder is worse then adultery. let me save you some trouble...it doesnt say that. just because in our minds we give sins different degrees doesnt mean that god sees it that way.

(SIGH)... again, the ignorance is just astounding, it really is. The fact alone that a particular sin is considered the most serious TELLS YOU RIGHT THERE THAT THERE ARE DEGREES OF SIN. It couldn't be more straightforward if the point came and punched you in the face. What part of that just isn't sinking in? Read the gospels again about what Jesus preached... not only did he preach about God's kingdom, he preached to people of all kinds of the need to REPENT.

Regarding the tearing of the temple curtain, at the moment Jesus dies, the huge curtain that divides the Holy from the Most Holy in God's temple is torn in two, from top to bottom. Apparently this beautifully ornamented curtain is some 60 feet [18 m] high and very heavy! The astonishing miracle not only manifests God's wrath against the killers of His Son but signifies that the way into the Most Holy, heaven itself, is now made possible by Jesus' death. I suggest you try reading the Old Testament, specially the Law of Moses... some things considered as sins there merited the death penalty while others did not. Now read through there and explain how all of those sins would be considered the same. You won't be able to.

Just because you feel all sins are the same doesn't mean God does. And the Bible shows that he doesn't. Let's consider how we know that:

Although sin is sin, and in any case could justly make the guilty one worthy of sin's “wages,” death, the Scriptures show that God views mankind's wrongdoing as varying in degrees of gravity. Thus, the men of Sodom were “gross sinners against (God),” and their sin was “very heavy.” (Ge 13:13; 18:20; compare 2Ti 3:6, 7.) The Israelites' making a golden calf was also called “a great sin” (Ex 32:30, 31), and Jeroboam's calf worship similarly caused those of the northern kingdom “to sin with a great sin.” (2Ki 17:16, 21) Judah's sin became “like that of Sodom,” making the kingdom of Judah abhorrent in God's eyes. (Isa 1:4, 10; 3:9; La 1:8; 4:6) Such a course of disregard for God's will can make even one's very prayer become a sin. (Ps 109:7, 8, 14) Since sin is an affront to God's own person, he is not indifferent to it; as its gravity increases, his indignation and wrath are understandably increased. (Ro 1:18; De 29:22-28; Job 42:7; Ps 21:8, 9) His wrath, however, is not solely due to the involvement of his own person but is likewise stirred by the injury and injustice done to humans and particularly to his faithful servants.—Isa 10:1-4; Mal 2:13-16; 2Th 1:6-10.

[campem2]

James 2:10 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

This indicates that God does not see sin in degrees of bad or horrible. To him a lie is destructive to truth and harmony amongst people. IN His eyes, killing some one is just as evil as lying. Or Molesting a child.
It is only humans who think evil can be graded from one to ten.
To God, sin IS sin.
Sin is rebellion against that which is good. And under enough stress the person who is willing to steal for their own personal gain would resort to killing if they felt the need would arise. It is a state of mind not a state of action.

[savedsinner7]

Sin is the attitude of our heart. It is the iniquity we are born into. It is rebellion against the LORD.

James 2:10 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

This indicates that God does not see sin in degrees of bad or horrible. To him a lie is destructive to truth and harmony amongst people. IN His eyes, killing some one is just as evil as lieing. or Molesting a child.
It is only humans who think evil can be graded from one to ten.
To God, sin IS sin.
Sin is rebellion against that which is good. And under enough stress the person who is willing to steal for their own personal gain would resort to killing if they felt the need would arise. It is a state of mind not a state of action.

[savedsinner7]

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Romans 3:22-24 (in Context) Romans 3 (Whole Chapter)

[campem2]

(SIGH)......again, the ignorance is just astounding, it really is. The fact alone that a particular sin is considered the most serious TELLS YOU RIGHT THERE THAT THERE ARE DEGREES OF SIN. It couldn't be more straightforward if the point came and punched you in the face. What part of that just isn't sinking in? Read the gospels again about what Jesus preached.....not only did he preach about God's kingdom, he preached to people of all kinds of the need to REPENT.

Regarding the tearing of the temple curtain, at the moment Jesus dies, the huge curtain that divides the Holy from the Most Holy in God's temple is torn in two, from top to bottom. Apparently this beautifully ornamented curtain is some 60 feet [18 m] high and very heavy! The astonishing miracle not only manifests God's wrath against the killers of His Son but signifies that the way into the Most Holy, heaven itself, is now made possible by Jesus' death. I suggest you try reading the Old Testament, specially the Law of Moses......some things considered as sins there merited the death penalty while others did not. Now read through there and explain how all of those sins would be considered the same. You won't be able to.

Just because you feel all sins are the same doesn't mean God does. And the Bible shows that he doesn't. Let's consider how we know that:

Although sin is sin, and in any case could justly make the guilty one worthy of sin's “wages,” death, the Scriptures show that God views mankind's wrongdoing as varying in degrees of gravity. Thus, the men of Sodom were “gross sinners against (God),” and their sin was “very heavy.” (Ge 13:13; 18:20; compare 2Ti 3:6, 7.) The Israelites' making a golden calf was also called “a great sin” (Ex 32:30, 31), and Jeroboam's calf worship similarly caused those of the northern kingdom “to sin with a great sin.” (2Ki 17:16, 21) Judah's sin became “like that of Sodom,” making the kingdom of Judah abhorrent in God's eyes. (Isa 1:4, 10; 3:9; La 1:8; 4:6) Such a course of disregard for God's will can make even one's very prayer become a sin. (Ps 109:7, 8, 14) Since sin is an affront to God's own person, he is not indifferent to it; as its gravity increases, his indignation and wrath are understandably increased. (Ro 1:18; De 29:22-28; Job 42:7; Ps 21:8, 9) His wrath, however, is not solely due to the involvement of his own person but is likewise stirred by the injury and injustice done to humans and particularly to his faithful servants.—Isa 10:1-4; Mal 2:13-16; 2Th 1:6-10.

... your right,god does view sins in degrees... 2 DEGREES! First degree: don't blaspheme god. Second degree: every other sin.

[silentrascal]

.....your right,god does view sins in degrees....2 DEGREES! first degree: dont blaspheme god. Second degree: every other sin.

Nice try, but still... wrong.

[campem2]

OK OK. Say there is degrees of sin. Who to say that lying is worse then stealing or homosexuality worse then lustfulness? The bible doesn't point that out at all. So would you mind giving me a list from the worst to the least worst?

[RustyFairmount]

Campen,

Is it possible that the youth pastor is just, well, wrong? Consider that in the lineage of churches, the original church is the Catholic church. And over the centuries, the leadership of that church has made decisions that people strongly disagreed with. So those believers ran out and formed a wonderful variety of protestant churches that exist today.

That said, maybe the church you are currently attending is one that does not want your friend, or you for that matter. Big deal! Pray for them. Pray that the church leadership and those others who are jumping on the "shun the gay" bandwagon will someday realize that what they're doing is wrong.

You can choose to stay in church with these people who aren't leading lives of forgiveness as Christ taught us. Or you can choose to go to a different church where the congregation does believe in forgiveness, and spiritual growth. Sure, you might also be "shunned," but remember Matthew 5:10. Blessed are those who are persecuted for justice' sake: For theirs is the kingdom of Heaven.

In response to silentrascal's comment below: It is not found in the bible. The Catholic Church traces it's leadership back to St. Peter. Historical facts do not require divine inspiration to be true.

[silentrascal]

Campen,

Is it possible that the youth pastor is just, well, wrong? Consider that in the lineage of churches, the original church is the Catholic church. And over the centuries, the leadership of that church has made decisions that people strongly disagreed with. So those believers ran out and formed a wonderful variety of protestant churches that exist today.

That said, maybe the church you are currently attending is one that does not want your friend, or you for that matter. Big deal! Pray for them. Pray that the church leadership and those others who are jumping on the "shun the gay" bandwagon will someday realize that what they're doing is wrong.

You can choose to stay in church with these people who aren't leading lives of forgiveness as Christ taught us. Or you can choose to go to a different church where the congregation does believe in forgiveness, and spiritual growth. Sure, you might also be "shunned," but remember Matthew 5:10. Blessed are those who are persecuted for justice' sake: For theirs is the kingdom of Heaven.

The original church is NOT the Catholic church, contrary to errant opinion. Catholicism is part of the great apostasy that developed within the first century Christian congregation. Note the viewpoint of not shunning willful, unrepentant sinners... that opinion is completely contrary to what the Apostle Paul directed the congregations to do in 1 Corinthians 5:13. The modern viewpoint is to not remove such ones from the congregation. God's viewpoint, which does not change, is reflected in the inspired words of Paul in that aforementioned scripture in which such a person was to be removed fron the congregation. Pray that those who water down Bible morality by preaching tolerance of unrepentant wrongdoers, such as homosexuals, will turn around and start abiding by God's standards instead of modern society's.

[NeedKarma]

I am so glad I am not part of an institution that turns their backs on anyone who is not like them. Thank you for reminding me.