[tatertot]

I would prefer that you not go any further with me, because you are more brainwashed than most christians.

What galveston said is true. Its seems like you are manupulating the bible, taking verses out of context to suit your argument.
Anyway , my work is done. I have given you an invitation to open your heart and receive Christ and let him prove himself to you. We can all argue till we are blue in the face and if someone's heart is hardened then nothing we can say will change their heart. I will continue to pray for you that you may know Christ and let him change you like he did me.(trust me just thinking possitive has done nothing for me) I was like you, doubtful, before I knew him but it was when I had no where else to turn that I called upon him and even after I had rejected him and mocked Him, he was there with open arms and forgave everything I ever did, traded my heart of stone for a heart that feels compation for others and he gave me new desires. Diest I will leave you with this : God Loves YOU. He knows you by name and he wants you to be reconciled to him. God is love. He is not evil. Satan is evil and he is the one who is lying to you and confusing you, making you feel like you are intelligent because of your reasoning. Out of everything in the Universe there is know, we as human beings know nothing. The only true wisdom consists in knowing that you know nothing. God knows everything, the end from the beginning. He love you and cares about you as if you were the only person he created and I will continue to pray for you that you may come to that knowledge. :o

[NeedKarma]

tatertot,
I will too hold hope that you will see the light and become your own person.

[tatertot]

tatertot,
I will too hold hope that you will see the light and become you're own person.

Fair enough

[MoonlitWaves]

tatertot,
I will too hold hope that you will see the light and become you're own person.

You don't consider tatertot to be their own person, and since you didn't say brainwashed, then tatertot couldn't be brainwashed in your opinion, I'm sure.

[NeedKarma]

Sorry that's too confusing for me to understand.

[lpeyton]

How do christians explain Jesus' failed prophecies ? Here are only two among several.
Matthew 10:23, Jesus told his disciples that he would return before they could go over all the cities of Israel with the gospel. The gospel has since been preached all throughout Israel, & continues to be so with christian television now, & still Jesus hasn't returned.
Mark 14:62, Jesus told the high priest that he would live to see Jesus' second coming. Of course the high priest died before Jesus returned.
So there is two false prophecies made by Jesus. Any explanations ?

In fact, Jesus has returned.

He appeared the discplies after he was resurrected, before the high priest died and before his teachings were released all over the world.

[deist]

Infact, Jesus has returned.

He appeared the the discplies after he was resurrected, before the high priest died and before his teachings were released all over the world.

Did the high priest see Jesus sitting at the right hand of God & coming in the clouds of heaven at that time ? Nope. Jesus wasn't referring to his resurrection, he was referring to his second coming in power & glory.

[tatertot]

You don't consider tatertot to be their own person, and since you didn't say brainwashed, then tatertot couldn't be brainwashed in your opinion, I'm sure.

Moonlit waves The best thing for us to do As Christians is to be Christ like and love and pray for these people. Arguing with them is pointless because all they do is go roung and roung in circles. Like you said if we apply their "brainwashed" argument to everyone christian or not, then EVERYONE in the world is Brainwashed because we have ALL come into knowledge of things, ideas and concepts through books we have read things we have been told. So basically Needkarma is not his/her own person either. Everything she knows has been told to her by someone else and therefore accoding to her own argument, she is not her own person. So to me that is the weakest argument I have herd on this site so far. But anyway my faith is not up for debate and Jesus never said we should force people or try and convince people on a cognative level to believe. What you choose to believe is up to you. God has given us free will otherwise he would have made us robots that just follow him. So who ever wants to discredit or reject him is free to do so.

[savedsinner7]

To die a physical death on this earth is not the same as the spiritual death that Jesus defeated when He rose again. Please research your context.

[Tj3]

Did the high priest see Jesus sitting at the right hand of God & coming in the clouds of heaven at that time ? Nope. Jesus wasn't referring to his resurrection, he was referring to his second coming in power & glory.

Deist, this argument was refuted and completely shot down once before. Why are you posting it again?

[Galveston1]

Deist is blowing smoke. In his original statement he gives us 2 of "several" failed prophecies, both of which several have disposed of. A later wild statement is that the Bible teaches that the world is flat, covered with dome. I challenge him to produce chapter and verse for those "several" failed prophecies of Jesus, and also those passages that teach a flat earth with a dome. If he fails to do so, it will be open admission that he doesn't know what he is talking about. In East Texas redneck language, it is time to put up or shut up.

[deist]

Deist is blowing smoke. In his original statement he gives us 2 of "several" failed prophecies, both of which several have disposed of. A later wild statement is that the Bible teaches that the world is flat, covered with dome. I challenge him to produce chapter and verse for those "several" failed prophecies of Jesus, and also those passages that teach a flat earth with a dome. If he fails to do so, it will be open admission that he doesn't know what he is talking about. In East Texas redneck language, it is time to put up or shut up.

Does the bible say the earth is flat ? Yes: The bible repeatedly refers to the four corners of the earth (a sphere has no corners). The Hebrew word translated circle in Isa. 40: 22 is chuwg. It simply refers to a compass or circuit or circle. Nowhere does James Strong say it means a sphere (a round ball); a circle is a flat one dimensional object. In the account of Jesus' temptation we are told that Satan took Jesus up into an exceedingly high mountain & showed him all the kingdoms of the world. You cannot see all the kingdoms of the world on a round globe, for no matter how high you go you cannot see the other side of the globe. You could only see all the kingdoms in the world on a flat earth. Other failed prophecies of Jesus: Jesus said all these things (signs leading to the second coming) will come upon "this generation" (his own generation of that day). Jesus also said, "This generation (referring to his own) shall not pass till all these things (signs leading to the second coming) be fulfilled". So including the previous prophecies I posted of Jesus' claim that he would come again in the first century (Matt. 10: 23 & Mark 14: 62), this makes 4 altogether.

[deist]

Does the bible say the earth is flat ? Yes: The bible repeatedly refers to the four corners of the earth (a sphere has no corners). The Hebrew word translated circle in Isa. 40: 22 is chuwg. It simply refers to a compass or circuit or circle. Nowhere does James Strong say it means a sphere (a round ball); a circle is a flat one dimensional object. In the account of Jesus' temptation we are told that Satan took Jesus up into an exceedingly high mountain & showed him all the kingdoms of the world. You cannot see all the kingdoms of the world on a round globe, for no matter how high you go you cannot see the other side of the globe. You could only see all the kingdoms in the world on a flat earth. Other failed prophecies of Jesus: Jesus said all these things (signs leading to the second coming) will come upon "this generation" (his own generation of that day). Jesus also said, "This generation (referring to his own) shall not pass till all these things (signs leading to the second coming) be fulfilled". So including the previous prophecies I posted of Jesus' claim that he would come again in the first century (Matt. 10: 23 & Mark 14: 62), this makes 4 altogether.

Oh, and the Hebrew word (raqiya) tranlated firmament throughout the Old Testament means arch or dome, it originally referred to a piece if metal beaten into shape.

[Galveston1]

Does the bible say the earth is flat ? Yes: The bible repeatedly refers to the four corners of the earth (a sphere has no corners). The Hebrew word translated circle in Isa. 40: 22 is chuwg. It simply refers to a compass or circuit or circle. Nowhere does James Strong say it means a sphere (a round ball); a circle is a flat one dimensional object. In the account of Jesus' temptation we are told that Satan took Jesus up into an exceedingly high mountain & showed him all the kingdoms of the world. You cannot see all the kingdoms of the world on a round globe, for no matter how high you go you cannot see the other side of the globe. You could only see all the kingdoms in the world on a flat earth. Other failed prophecies of Jesus: Jesus said all these things (signs leading to the second coming) will come upon "this generation" (his own generation of that day). Jesus also said, "This generation (referring to his own) shall not pass till all these things (signs leading to the second coming) be fulfilled". So including the previous prophecies I posted of Jesus' claim that he would come again in the first century (Matt. 10: 23 & Mark 14: 62), this makes 4 altogether.

Finally! Something to discuss! Yes, the Bible does refer to the four corners of the Earth. We still do so, referring to NSEW. We still refer to sunrise and sunset, we don't say the Earth has completed another revolution. If you stand on the seashore and look carefully, you will see the curve of the Earth. The Bible doesn't claim to be a science book, but consider this:
Job 26:7
7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
(KJV)
Correct! Earth floats in space. This from the oldest book in the Bible.
As to Satan showing Jesus all the kingdoms of the world, have you never heard of a vision? We have TV, so do you suppose Satan has no means of showing someone whatever he wants to? Your understanding of Mat. 24 is flawed. The disciples asked 3 questions, not 1, although they may not have understood that clearly at that time. It is not necessary to think that one answer fits all three. The primary interest of the disciples was centered on the temple buildings, and Jesus told them that they would all be destroyed in their lifetimes, and took the opportunity to tell them how to escape if they were in Jerusalem at that time. I have put in quite a bit of time on this chapter, and never got any idea that Jesus said He would return in the first century. You're stretching!

[Galveston1]

Oh, and the Hebrew word (raqiya) tranlated firmament throughout the Old Testament means arch or dome, it originally referred to a piece if metal beaten into shape.

As I said before, the Bible is not a science book. What do you or anyone else see when you look up? You see the "dome" of heaven. I have seen this expression used in more contemporary writings. As far as that is concerned, it is a dome no matter when you look up. There is something else, not sure I understand all about it, but I hear there are some cosmologists who say that there is no way that we can prove by observation whether Earth moves around the Sun or whether everything revolves around the Earth, as appearanes would be the same. Not saying I believe it, but don't get too cocky.

[Galveston1]

You have a skewed understanding of the founding of the US, no doubt propagated by the far right. Most of the founding fathers were deists, masons, & unitarians. Few were christians. If you doubt my words then maybe you ought to read article 11 of the treaty of Tripoli, signed by president John Adams himself & ratified by congress in 1797. Article 11 in part reads that the US government is in NO sense founded on the christian religion. The US was founded as a secular nation. Why do you think the constitution guarantees separation of church & state ?

At this point you give false statements. People have gone to a lot of research to compile lists like this one. Religious Affiliation
Of U.S. Founding Fathers # of
Founding
Fathers % of
Founding
Fathers
Episcopalian/Anglican 88 54.7%
Presbyterian 30 18.6%
Congregationalist 27 16.8%
Quaker 7 4.3%
Dutch Reformed/German Reformed 6 3.7%
Lutheran 5 3.1%
Catholic 3 1.9%
Huguenot 3 1.9%
Unitarian 3 1.9%
Methodist 2 1.2%
Calvinist 1 0.6%
TOTAL 204


NOTES: The table above counts people and not "roles," meaning that individuals have not been counted multiple times if they appear on more than one of the lists above. Roger Sherman, for example, signed all three foundational documents and he was a Representative in the First Federal Congress, but he has been counted only once.

So you see, there were a lot of Christians who founded this country. Secular does not mean anti-god or atheist. You talk about separation of church and state, but the prohibitions are both against the state, not the church. In plain language, the State is not to interfere with the Church. This is a departure from the question you posed, but you opened this door.

[deist]

Finally! Something to discuss! Yes, the Bible does refer to the four corners of the Earth. We still do so, referring to NSEW. We still refer to sunrise and sunset, we don't say the Earth has completed another revolution. If you stand on the seashore and look carefully, you will see the curve of the Earth. The Bible doesn't claim to be a science book, but consider this:
Job 26:7
7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
(KJV)
Correct! Earth floats in space. This from the oldest book in the Bible.
As to Satan showing Jesus all the kingdoms of the world, have you never heard of a vision? We have TV, so do you suppose Satan has no means of showing someone whatever he wnats to? Your understanding of Mat. 24 is flawed. The disciples asked 3 questions, not 1, although they may not have understood that clearly at that time. It is not necessary to think that one answer fits all three. The primary interest of the disciples was centered on the temple buildings, and Jesus told them that they would all be destroyed in their lifetimes, and took the opportunity to tell them how to escape if they were in Jerusalem at that time. I have put in quite a bit of time on this chapter, and never got any idea that Jesus said He would return in the first century. You're stretching!

The bible not only indicates a flat earth, but Job's reference to the earth being suspended in empty space is just one verse. There are more verses in the bible that says the earth is supported upon pillars or resting on some kind of solid foundation (1 Sam. 2; 8; Job 38: 4; Psa. 75: 3; Psa. 104: 5; Jer. 31: 37; Micah 6: 2). And the bible indicates they didn't know the earth spun on it's axis, because in several verses it says the earth is firmly fixed that it move not, & they didn't know the earth was revolving around the sun.

[Galveston1]

The bible not only indicates a flat earth, but Job's reference to the earth being suspended in empty space is just one verse. There are more verses in the bible that says the earth is supported upon pillars or resting on some kind of solid foundation (1 Sam. 2; 8; Job 38: 4; Psa. 75: 3; Psa. 104: 5; Jer. 31: 37; Micah 6: 2). And the bible indicates they didn't know the earth spun on it's axis, because in several verses it says the earth is firmly fixed that it move not, & they didn't know the earth was revolving around the sun.

1 Sam 2:8
8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them.
(KJV)

4690 matsuwq (maw-tsook');
or matsuq (maw-tsook'); from 6693; something narrow, i.e. a column or hilltop:
KJV-- pillar, situate.
Pillars convey the idea of support, and the Earth is supported by gravotational fields, whoch would have made no sense to early man at all. God speaks in understandable terms.
I believe that all these that you have referenced are in the nature of poetic statements, but will commont on them nevertheless.
Since you choose to believe vs. 8 literally, then you must believe vs. 10 literally also. If you are an adversary, this is not good news.
1 Sam 2:10
10 The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed.
(KJV)

Job 38:4
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding.
(KJV)
3245 yacad (yaw-sad');

a primitive root; to set (literally or figuratively); intensively, to found; reflexively, to sit down together, i.e. settle, consult:

KJV-- appoint, take counsel, establish, (lay the, lay for a) found (-ation), instruct, lay, ordain, set, X sure.

(The phrase simply asks where Job was when God founded the earth, broaden your thinking about the meaning of "foundation".
5982 `ammuwd (am-mood');

or `ammud (am-mood'); from 5975; a column (as standing); also a stand, i.e. platform:

KJV-- X apiece, pillar.

Ps 75:3
3 The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it. Selah.
(KJV)

Ps 104:5
5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
(KJV)

4349 makown (maw-kone');

from 3559; properly, a fixture, i.e. a basis; generally a place, especially as an abode:

KJV-- foundation, habitation, (dwelling-, settled) place.
(Earth has a settled place, or dwelling, known to us as orbit.)
Jer 31:37
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
(KJV)

4146 mowcadah (mo-saw-daw');

or mocadah (mo-saw-daw'); feminine of 4144; a foundation:

KJV-- foundation.

Micah 6:2
2 Hear ye, O mountains, the LORD's controversy, and ye strong foundations of the earth: for the LORD hath a controversy with his people, and he will plead with Israel.
(KJV)

4146 mowcadah (mo-saw-daw');

or mocadah (mo-saw-daw'); feminine of 4144; a foundation:

KJV-- foundation.

(Many things in Psalms and some of the prophets are expressed in poetic form, and we do no violence to the message by understanding it as such. But again, if you insist on literal understanding of these verses, then how do you justify not believing other verses at all?)

[Galveston1]

Deist, you said that you were a Christian for years (27?). Would you answer a question about that? Were you saved, born again, regenerated, brought into the Body of Christ, or some other expression of the same thing, or were you just a church member? If you don't know how to answer that question, then the church you were part of failed you. Which church was it? It has to be extremely frustrating to invest so much of your life and get nothing in return. The big problem for you now is that Deism will turn out to be just as empty.

[Onan]

Well, you're right it wasn't Gabriel. It was:
Isa 7:14
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
(KJV)

I hardly think Isaiah's son was born of a virgin, do you?

It's amazing to me how quick we lose all common sense when religion enters the picture.

Of course Isaiah's son was not born of a virgin. Have you even known a woman to give birth who has never been with a man? (I guess I should say without a mans sperm) Common sense tells us this cannot happen, why? Because we understand something like this just cannot happen. So then why do we believe it did in this case? It really disturbs me just how little Christians know the very Bible they recite scripture after scripture from. There are a few things wrong with this scripture. I will start with the obvious, that this scripture was not foretelling of a future event that doesn't take place for another 700 or so years.

When read in context(that is to read from beginning to end) you would find that the "sign" was for Ahaz not to be concerned about problems he was facing at That time. Now how could a birth 700 or 800 years later be a sign for Ahaz who is long since been dead?

Another problem with that scripture is the mistranslation of the word almah which means young woman not virgin. This makes sense since we see in the very next chapter that child is in fact born and the sign is given. Of course we all know if we read our bibles Ahaz was not all right and still ended up with reason to be afraid... lol

The third problem with that scripture is that no where in the NT is Jesus called Immanuel.

I don't wish to change anyone's beliefs but it would be nice for people to study for themselves than to believe what they are told from pulpits by people who have a lot to lose if people stopped believing in the myth they are trying to sell.