[Fr_Chuck]

And that is just the reason to show how things are going bad

Thanks for making my case,

Canada making group sex legal, abortion on demand in the US and many other places, legal prostitution in some places. Marriage having little value, sodomites being free to practice their preversions and homosexual marriage being allowed in many places.

If that is not a good reason to go back to old values I don't know when it would be. Society is slipping into a total disgrace and moral values are not even considered proper. Yes, it may well have started by not setting values for a 3 year old. They have to be told NO, then they would understand they can not indulge thierself anyway and time they want

[CaptainForest]

Legal group sex... I forgot about that one Chuck.

That is recent though as the Supreme Court just ruled on that a few days ago.

To be honest, before the ruling, I didn’t realize group sex wasn’t legal here. I always thought it was.

Canada making group sex legal, abortion on demand in the US and many other places, legal prostitution in some places. Marriage having little value, sodomites being free to practice thier preversions and homosexual marriage being allowed in many places.

If that is not a good reason to go back to old values I don't know when it would be. Society is slipping into a total disgrace and moral values are not even considered proper.

That's where you and I differ. I don't think this makes society worse, rather better.

You say people have no moral values anymore. That's not true. They just don't have YOUR moral values. Morals are something defined by the individual and society. So when society changes, so do moral values. Even 50 years ago would have been considered disgraceful to the people of the 1700s.

[orange]

We were up quite early this morning, and I'm not sure if I mentioned it or not, but the little boy who is the subject of this thread is staying at my place for Christmas. Anyway he was up and opened his presents and was very happy and cute and that was cool... for the short period it lasted! I don't know whether to laugh or cry, haha.

Anyway, I made waffles and sausages for everyone's breakfast, and for some reason the food on everyone else's plate looked a lot more interesting or tasty to tantrum boy than his own. So he kept trying to take food from other people's plates. His mom said it was because she let him take food from her plate, which is fine I guess.. but he was running all around the table, screaming because his mom wouldn't let him take other people's food. I told him no when he tried to take a sausage from my plate, and he got mad and hit me. Finally it was decided that he should play downstairs with my next door neighbor's 2 kids, who had come over and were finished their breakfast. Then we were able to eat in peace for a while...

Then about an hour ago, he comes upstairs again, and has a very poopy diaper. Except, he won't let his mom change him. This goes on for a while until the diaper starts to leak onto to his clothes and who knows where else, and of course the smell is incredible! Finally we grabbed him, and my fiancé had to hold him down while my friend changed him, and he screamed the whole time. He is a big kid for his age, which is why his mom has difficulty physically controlling him. Not fat, but very tall and strong.

So that's my Christmas morning so far, LOL! Just needed to vent I guess!

[orange]

Oh and as a bit of an update, my fiancé has arranged for the little guy to be seen by a specialist while he and his mom are here in town. We have a teaching hospital here and there are some really good specialists. One of my fiance's professors has agreed to see him. Actually he's coming over for brunch tomorrow to see the kid in action, haha, and then he'll see him specially in his office on the 27th. So hopefully something will come of that. I'll keep everyone posted.

[CaptainForest]

He's not potty trained at 3?

Curious.. when does one become potty trained?

[Fr_Chuck]

Between 1 1/2 to 2 normally. But at times a little latter is not unheard of.

Normally what helped with all of my kids was for them to be in preschool with other kids, when one started the others soon followed suit

Also making them sit on the toilet at certain times to get into a routine can help also.

And forgive me, but not doing what the mom says, and it is just let go to latter, "time out" and mother forcing him to be changed,

[orange]

It's my understanding that kids are potty trained anywhere from 18 months to 3 years or so, with boys generally being trained a little older than girls. I think I was 2 or a little younger. Eric, the little boy staying with me, is actually mostly potty trained, he only wears diapers at night, and the diaper fiasco this morning was the result of his overnight diaper, which hadn't been changed yet. Why he wanted to keep it on though is beyond me!

Fr Chuck that's a really good idea about preschool and the kids taking each other's lead. I never thought of that. I will have to make sure mine goes to preschool or at least a playgroup!

and forgive me, but not doing what the mom says, and it is just let go to latter, "time out" and mother forcing him to be changed,

I'm not sure what you were trying to say here? Did you accidentally cut yourself off? Anyway thanks again for the comments!

[serialwife]

This the first time I noticed this post or I would have chimed in earlier. I am a social worker and I see these things all the time. First of all let me commend Chuck for advocating spanking. Contrary to popular belief you can still spank your children, you just can't abuse them. This child has learned that his mother will entertain these tantrums. Did the tantrums begin shortly after the 6 month old appeared? I am sure before the baby came he was the center of their world. What happens when he wants to get attention he began acting out? Do mom and dad yell at one another? He may think it is acceptable. Children often mimic what they see behind closed doors.
Your friend needs to find a calm consistent manner of disciplining her child. She might want to go to Barnes and Noble or Joseph Beth and look for a book or video called 1-2-3 Magic. In this system the child knows the punishment in advance.. i.e. if you misbehave you will be in time of for x number of minutes or you will get a spanking. When the child acts out the only thing the adult says to the child are the numbers 1, 2, 3 nothing else. If you get to 3 the child gets the predetermined punishment. After it is over then discuss the child's behavior. It is important that this be done VERY consistently and you only use the numbers. Don't ask the child to stop the behavior, don't offer treats to get them to do something, just say 1-2-3. It works I taught this method in court ordered parenting classes. If you have questions post them or email me. If she doesn't get this kid under control she is heading for a Oppositional Defiant Disorder diagnosis for her child.

[orange]

Heather, thanks so much for your input. I really appreciate it. I have never heard of this 1-2-3 system, but as I'm expecting my first baby in the summer, I'm glad to hear about anything to do with parenting. My fiance's grandmother wants to buy us a couple of parenting books as holiday gifts, so I think I'll suggest to her the one you recommended.

Now as far as Eric goes... he's been a little worse since his brother was born, but he's had these tantrums for about a year already, so it's not because of the baby, since the baby is only 6 months old. He's worse when she's holding the baby or when they are in public, but from observing him the last few days, I personally think it's because he knows that she's physically less able to control him while the baby is in tow, or can't do much in public without other people noticing. Maybe I'm crazy, but I see this glint in his eye, like he knows EXACTLY when to behave the worst to get what he wants. He's pretty bright. And when he gets what he wants, he stops crying or screaming instantly! It's like turning off a faucet or something.

I'm confused about what my friend wants re: Eric... like she complains about his tantrums and says she's at her wit's end, and from seeing him for the last couple of days I can definitely see why. But the moment I or anyone else suggests anything, she changes her mind and says Eric is a good boy. She has the same pattern with her husband... she complains about him non-stop and wants us to listen, but if we criticize him or suggest she leave him, then she starts defending his actions. It's frustrating.

Anyway I'm not sure if she's interested in getting help anymore, she was last week, but she changes her mind all the time... sigh. I am very grateful to everyone who has responded to this thread though... especially since I'm going to be a mother soon. I accept the fact that my child is going to have tantrums too, but I sincerely hope they will not be as bad as Eric's!

If I come up with anymore questions, for myself or my friend, I will post them here.

[Fr_Chuck]

I have only had boys ( 5 of them) plus three step children all boys.

Yes count them 8 boys total. Plus we have taken in several teen boys over the years. A stupid thing in the state welfare systems. At 18 the children are not adults and out they go, even if they are not out of high school. So the foster parents ( the ones just doing it for the money) won't keep them any longer. So you have 18 year old with no money, not out of high school and no place to live. Not a lot of them, many find family or the foster parents still keep them. But we have helped some over the years. None as of late.

But all of my "boys" except my youngest are in their mid twenties and I have a herd of grandkids now.

But I do have a new 5 year old at home still.

And please understand, in those 5 years I have only spanked him maybe 3 or 4 times. But his older brothers were a different issue but each and everyone has their own personality and each one needs different things.

Some need some freedom but boundries. Others need constant watching and constant demands

We too often also try to have small adults kids are kids, they run, they yell, they scream and they break things at times. And they argue, say things they hear ( oh my god do they do that )

Often we also need to just let them be kids.

[serialwife]

1-2-3 magic is great. I have a lot of parenting information if you want it. I can send you my class packet. I teach parenting skills to people who are court ordered due to abuse or neglect. I have info from birth to age 18.
Eric sounds like he is calculating. It needs to be corrected now. I hope she gets it under control. I would hate to see him label ODD and end up medicated due lack of discipline.

[orange]

Yes count them 8 boys total. Plus we have taken in several teen boys over the years. A stupid thing in the state welfare systems. At 18 the children are not adults and out they go, even if they are not out of high school. So the foster parents ( the ones just doing it for the money) won't keep them any longer. So you have 18 year old with no money, not out of high school and no place to live. Not alot of them, many find family or the foster parents still keep them. But we have helped some over the years. None as of late.

Is it like that all over the US? I mean, once you turn 18, is there no government help? I was a Crown Ward (in Canada) from age 4 until 18, although my parents had some visiting privileges (which they seldom used). In any event, after I was emancipated, there was still help from the government, in the form of monthly payments called Orphan's Benefits (my parents were dead by that point), and I also qualified for social assistance and special financial assistance to attend postsecondary school. Crown Wards usually get a lot of help from the system (unless they are incarcerated by that point) so that they don't repeat the cycle of their parents. Lots end up having problems anyhow, but we do get a head start that a lot of people WITH parents don't get. I'm sorry to hear that it's not the same way in the US.

[Fr_Chuck]

Yes, when I got involved with one of my step sons life, he was rated by doctors as ODD. What we found was attention and issues from his parents divorce many years ago. Plus there was some diet issues and blood chemistry issues.

But after getting his diet straight, being given a more controlled living situation over what he had, We found that the medicine he was taking was actually causing more issues.

Now this is not the case for everyone, and people need to follow their doctors, but what I have seen is that a lot of HMO's and insurance plans, pay for drugs without any problem, but counseling is not paid for, so it is cheaper and easier to medicate instead of finding other avenues of help.

[orange]

Eric sounds like he is calculating. It needs to be corrected now. I hope she gets it under control. I would hate to see him label ODD and end up medicated due lack of discipline.

So this ODD is not a genetic disorder then I take it? I don't know much about it, but I didn't realize that it could be the result of bad parenting. I thought maybe it was just caused by either trauma or some genetic predisposition. Thanks for the info, I'm going to Google it to see if I can find out more.

And yeah Fr Chuck I agree it's definitely easier to medicate... actually medication is almost free here in Canada if you are low income. Whereas only the government sponsored counseling is free, and there's usually long waiting lists... sometimes a year or more! The majority of counselors are in private practice and cost a lot. OH and psychiatrists are all free of course, but a great many of them treat by medication only, with little or no psychotherapy.

[serialwife]

Fr Chuck I commend you again for being an excellent foster parent. Here in KY an 18 year old child can commit themselves to the cabinet until they are 21. Plus it guarantees them a college or vocational education. Not a bad deal.
Oppositional Defiance Disorder is not genetic.Oppositional defiant disorder (ODD) is a psychiatric behavior disorder that is characterized by aggressiveness and a tendency to purposefully bother and irritate others. These behaviors cause significant difficulties with family and friends and at school or work. It can be caused by a chemical imbalance. It is often in response to a chaotic environment.

Here are some great websites:
http://www.klis.com/chandler/pamphle...cdpamphlet.htm
http://www.vh.org/pediatric/patient/.../cqqa/odd.html
http://www.childparenting.about.com/...ders/a/odd.htm

This book may help: The Defiant Child : A Parent's Guide to Oppositional Defiant Disorder (Paperback)
By Douglas Riley

Good Luck!

[orange]

Here in KY an 18 year old child can commit themselves to the cabinet until they are 21. Plus it guarentees them a college or vocational education. Not a bad deal.

Oh I am so relieved to hear that... I have a special feeling when it comes to foster children... guess because I was one myself! Anyway that's great that there's a similar program in the States after all. And thanks for the links and book names. I will check those out.

And yes Fr Chuck thanks so much for being a foster parent, and a good one too. Too many of the homes I and some of my foster siblings were in were bad... so it's great when foster parents actually care!

[christinewest-stephen]

I found when my 2 year old started with the tantrums I took his toys away and left the toy in a spot he could see the toy but could not reach but remember it will get worse before it gets better but it has worked for me

[jduke44]

Christine, that sounds like a good idea also, since I have a 2 yr myself. He doesn't have a lot of tantrums but he constantly wants to get his own way. This may work.

Heather, thank you so much for backing up what Chuck and I have been saying about spanking. I do agree there is sometimes cases of too much spanking where it really hurts the child more than shows him to change his behavior. I think we are afraid sometimes to show discipline with our children because we are afraid that CPS is going to take them away. It gives hope that with what you are saying CPS won't necessarily do that until there is a good reason (like abuse).

Chuck, again I totally agree with the fact that this is why our society is going bad. Kids are growing up being disrespectful to parents and adults. They think they own the world.

Canada making group sex legal, abortion on demand in the US and many other places, legal prostitution in some places. Marriage having little value, sodomites being free to practice their preversions and homosexual marriage being allowed in many places.

I will add kids killing people, drinking, drugs, premiscuous sex to name a few... hmmm... I guess this must be all moral things.

The fact that group sex being legal has just been approve does show the demoralizing of our society. The fact that everyone else approves it doesn't mae it right. I guess if they approve that you can kill people whenever you want or child porn becomes legal, that will be moral also. Just a thought.

[orange]

I just wanted to update you guys about little Eric. He was seen by the specialist I mentioned earlier, who from observing and examining him thinks he may have something organically wrong with his brain. Thus some neurological tests, as well as other general tests for health, are being ordered for him. He, his mom and little brother are going to stay at my place until all the tests can be completed. I will continue with updates when we hear the results of the various tests.

However...

There are behavioural changes I've noticed in him, since he's been here, and they are pretty "telling". First off, he plays very nicely with my fiancé. Also, my fiancé is a big guy, with a big booming voice, and he's been really annoyed by the tantrums. He's actually told Eric to quit it a couple of times, and Eric listens to him! Whereas he doesn't listen to his mother. Also Eric seems to have fewer tantrums with me. I took him to Wal-Mart and McDonalds yesterday, to give his mom a break, and he was a perfect angel for the whole 4 hours! Unheard of! I was almost embarrassed to tell his mom about it. Maybe he's just being "polite" with my fiancé and I, or maybe he's scared of us LOL. Whatever it is though, it doesn't add up with a brain disorder, that's for sure...

[serialwife]

JDuke44
In order for CPS to remove children they have to be in immediate risk of death or imminent danger. A parent spanking a child does neither. By spanking I mean a few swats on the bottom. Hitting a child anywhere else or leaving bruises could be construed as abuse. CPS can just as easily get involved with your family because children are out of control.

Orange keep us posted on how Eric is doing.