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Burma protests
Could the protesters in Myanmar actually succeed in peacefully overthrowing Burma’s military government? I hope so .Now that President Bush made it an issue in his Tues. General Assembly address ,and First Lady Laura Bush went on VOA to pronounce solidarity with the protesters It is hopeful that international pressure will prevent the protests from turning into the latest version of the Tiananmen Square massacre.
This protest of monks is reminiscent of the 1986 People Power movement in Philippines that paved the way to the end of the Marcos reign. Key members of the Catholic Church played a role then. The US also played a role in that transition by providing Marcos with an exit route(don't let the door hit you... ). The same is being tried in Zimbabwe VOA News - Zimbabweans Advocate Retirement Package for Mugabe ,and similar incentives should be attempted in Burma. I have to give rare kudos to George Soros for funding BurmaNet Burmanet where much of the information about the protests has been filtering from this otherwise closed society .Also bloggers have been very active text messaging from location . Oppressive governments are finding their control of information is becoming ever increasingly compromised by the information tech . Age. |
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More and more information is leaking past their attempts to hide what is going on. I too hope they succeed with ousting this very oppressive military gov't. One of the biggest problems is the military has all the tools to suppress the people, and the people have little except outside support.
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Interesting, in Burma/Myanmar Buddhist Monks are marching for freedom and individual rights.
In America, Christians are in lockstep trying to destroy the First Amendment(FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND FREEDOM OF RELIGION); and make America a Christian Theist State. Time for the Christians to wise up. |
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Again the false moral equivalence !
The protesters in Burma are protesting against summary executions, forced labor, forced relocation, forced conscription of child soldiers and many other atrocities . If you are following the discussion on another tread you understand that Christians don't walk in lock step about anything except our acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior. |
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I would disagree that "everyone and their mother " knows about the Burmese situation . Even while the monks were taking to the streets there was very little MSM coverage . It took the President pointing it out during his General Assembly address for the American press to open it's eyes.
As a sole means to an end ,sanctions are not particularly effective .But ,as part of a diplomatic initiative they are a valuable tool when used properly and in a cooperative multi-lateral effort. Disinvestment and sanctions helped the "democratic movement" accomplish regime change in South Africa. Yes it can work when the world gets behind such an effort. That doesn't just mean sanctions by some governments while others prop up the regime ;but also a private disinvestment campaign;and other forms of political pressure exerted by NGOs and most importantly the media getting behind the effort. [I put parentheis on "democratic movement" because all the effort really did was replace a minority government with a different elite... the ANC leadership. ] The civil wars in Angola and Sierra Leone also were effectively ended by targeted sanctions;specifically against DeBeers. Once Debeers was persuaded to stop funding rebel groups UNITA and RUF with blood diamonds their efforts soon collapsed. Again the necessary prerequisite circumstances were there . I believe that similarly ,the targeted sanctions against Saddam would've worked if there wasn't an illegal effort at the UN to undermine the effort.About $2billion a year of illegal oil made it on the market .Further ,Saddam used money intended towards relief for Iraqi children as bribe money. Former CIA agent during the Clinton years details the extent of the illegal smuggling of oil out of Iraq in his book See No Evil .Regime change would've been effected had the world been behind the effort as UN sanctions had mandated. Sanctions didn't completely stop Libyan efforts to develop WMD programs, but they certainly impeded and slowed their development until another resolution could be found. The same can be said ;despite the undermining of the effort by some nations ,as having a similar effect on the Iranian proliferation. Again ,resolve is an issue. Sanctions are an integral part of the negotiations with N Korea .Recent news indicate that the carrot and stick effect of sanctions is slowly working. |
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Thanks Tom,
I understand a little better. So unless all money makers involved suffer, the government will not give in? Until then the poor masses will go hungrier and poorer than they have ever been. Is this not unfair on those who have already suffered under their oppressors hands? Would this not mean that by the time the regime is changed the suffering masses will not have any means to rebuild their lives and will not be able to even support a proper government when it is in place (like Afghanistan where half the people are refugees and they cannot trust the government to do anything much?). Is there any alternative to sanctions? And what about all those corrupted politicians/businessmen who have been lining their pockets throughout the regime, they could get away before the regime breaks under pressure? They could go and settle anywhere in the world with their money and no one will be the wiser. |
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Hi Tom
Hi Tom Sanctions are an integral part of the negotiations which led to the attack on Pearl Harbor. They considered it an attack on their economy, which is true. Tariffs are one thing, but when a government interferes with free trade to the point of shutting it off entirely government has violated the first requirement of Capitalism. |
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Ok I get it I think . The US should've supported the military expansion of Japan throughout East Asia by allowing the free flow of oil to the Japanese military ? So even though the Japanese had already invaded costal China ;raped Nanking, occupied French Indochina ,and was threatening the oil fields of the Dutch East Indies,it was the US fault that there was war.
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Here is the related topic . Evidently I did not ask a question... my bad
UN Envoy Ibrahim Gambari met with several low level junta members but is being ignored by the top brass in the government. An estimated 20,000 troops filled the streets of Rangoon during Gambari's visit to prevent any protests from forming. But no need to worry ;the revolt has been effectively crushed .Liberty takes another beat down while the world in all it's impotence looks on. The Daily Mail reports on the brutality used to end the protest of the monks. Burma: Thousands dead in massacre of the monks dumped in the jungle | the Daily Mail
Burma: Thousands dead in massacre of the monks dumped in the jungle
Last updated at 11:37am on 1st October 2007 Thousands of protesters are dead and the bodies of hundreds of executed monks have been dumped in the jungle, a former intelligence officer for Burma's ruling junta has revealed. The most senior official to defect so far, Hla Win, said: "Many more people have been killed in recent days than you've heard about. The bodies can be counted in several thousand." Mr Win, who spoke out as a Swedish diplomat predicted that the revolt has failed, said he fled when he was ordered to take part in a massacre of holy men. He has now reached the border with Thailand.. . Reports from exiles along the frontier confirmed that hundreds of monks had simply "disappeared" as 20,000 troops swarmed around Rangoon yesterday to prevent further demonstrations by religious groups and civilians. Word reaching dissidents hiding out on the border suggested that as well as executions, some 2,000 monks are being held in the notorious Insein Prison or in university rooms which have been turned into cells. There were reports that many were savagely beaten at a sports ground on the outskirts of Rangoon, where they were heard crying for help. Others who had failed to escape disguised as civilians were locked in their bloodstained temples. There, troops abandoned religious beliefs, propped their rifles against statues of Buddha and began cooking meals on stoves set up in shrines. |
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 Originally Posted by firmbeliever
And what about all those corrupted politicians/businessmen who have been lining their pockets throughout the regime, they could get away before the regime breaks under pressure?
They could go and settle anywhere in the world with their money and no one will be the wiser. Elliot |
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Well you know me. I do not think I would've supported the prevailing isolationist sentiments the US had at the time. In our defense ,it was probably difficult to determine which side of China to give our support to ;Kuomintang, or the Communists .
Also the US was giving large amts of aid to the Russians and the Allied Nations in Europe . Even if large munitions were shipped there the Chinese Army would've needed extensive training .Supplying China was much easier said than done. Long supply routes were needed through India and then a treacherous flight fly over the Himalayas which claimed many American airmen's lives. Even after war was declared it was difficult to supply China because we had to fight for control of the Pacific routes first. |
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Update :
Sly Stallone has been filming a Rambo sequel near Burma in Thailand . His observations are quoted here : My Way News - Stallone and Crew Saw Myanmar Aftermath
"I witnessed the aftermath - survivors with legs cut off and all kinds of land-mine injuries, maggot-infested wounds and ears cut off," Stallone told The Associated Press in a phone interview Monday. "We hear about Vietnam and Cambodia and this was more horrific."
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The hypocrisy…why the sanctions have not worked. The U.S. government has had sanctions in place against Burma since 1997. A loophole exists, though, for companies grandfathered in. Unocal's exemption from the Burmese sanctions has been passed on to its new owner, Chevron.
Sanctions haven't worked because gas is the currency of the regime. Rice served on the Chevron board of directors for a decade. French TOTAL does lots of Business in Burma too. They know what s going on too and still they sell them arms. Burma's natural-gas reserves, controlled by the Burmese regime in partnership with the U.S. multinational oil giant Chevron, the French oil company is what is keeping him in power there. Bush and his wife speaking out is pure hypocrisy; stop the sanctions and stop the flow of gas, that will stop the killing. |
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We have sat photos of whole villages being destroyed . Satellite photos may prove abuses in Myanmar, researchers say - CNN.com
Where are all the peace protesters now?. especially the self proclaimed Buddhists like Richard Gere ? [oh yeah that's right... he's too busy sucking face and getting Bollywood starlets in trouble] What is keeping President Jiang Zemin and Premier Zhu Rongji in power is the fact that the country is a satellite state of China. It is China in it's role as a Security Council member that blocks any meaningful international response . |
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