[NeedKarma]

I'm sure most people's views on why they dismiss gods to fall into the same way of thinking.

[Capuchin]

"god of the gaps"

[firmbeliever]

"god of the gaps"

Explain please:)

[Capuchin]

God, throughout history, has been used by humans to fill the gaps in our knowledge about the world.

In ancient times, God was used to describe why the Sun goes around the Earth (pulled around by chariots, chasing the moon, right?). After some time, we came to understand that it's an illusion caused by the rotation of the Earth, there was no need for a god to move the sun.

Religious people said "okay, but God still created the sun". After some time, we developed models which describe stellar formation from the collapse of gas under gravitational attraction, there was no need for a God to create the sun.

Religious people said "okay, but God still created the universe". And that's where we are at the present day. And I'm certain that if or when we find a convincing explanation for the creation of the universe, God will be called in to explain how that thing that created the universe was created.

God, in essence, is used to fill in the gaps.

[ordinaryguy]

Thunder is the crash or boom sound produced by rapidly expanding air along the path of the electrical discharge of lightning, one reason I do not believe in Zeus.:)

So you have an alternative explanation for thunder that you like better than the image of a mighty warrior-god hurling thunderbolts? Can we still keep the image, even after we know about the behavior of air molecules in the vicinity of an electrical discharge?

Of course a couple of hundred years ago, it was common knowledge that lightning was the direct manifestation of the wrath of God, and many thought the new practice of putting lightning rods on houses was blasphemous because it's intention was to avoid a punishment that God might decide to deliver.

[ordinaryguy]

God, throughout history, has been used by humans to fill the gaps in our knowledge about the world.

The Explanation of Last Resort.

[firmbeliever]

Lightning and other natural forces are a blessing to mankind but then again there are times when they are the wrath of the Almighty and it works as a reminder for all.

[ordinaryguy]

Lightning and other natural forces are a blessing to mankind but then again there are times when they are the wrath of the Almighty and it works as a reminder for all.

I'm curious about this. Could you explain exactly when or under what circumstances natural disasters should be interpreted as the wrath of the Almighty?

[jillianleab]

excon agrees: I like it. A gap God.

Does Gap God wear khakis and white t-shirts? Or is it black this season? Either way, I love the jeans that Gap God makes. Gap God takes lots of my money. Gap God Junior (aka Old Navy) takes a lot of my money too. Gap God Senior (aka Bannana Republic) takes it sometimes, too. Darn that Gap God!

[firmbeliever]

I'm curious about this. Could you explain exactly when or under what circumstances natural disasters should be interpreted as the wrath of the Almighty?

Maybe wrath is too strong a word, I should have used it is a sign of the power of the Almighty and lest we forget His existence, He shows signs in different ways,storms,floods,sunshine,birth,death,etc.

I believe each natural disaster is an eye opener for believers and some non believers alike.
As I do not believe the Almighty to be only all loving even when we transgress our limits or that we will be left to our own devices as we continue to oppress,suppress,commit crimes etc.I believe He is the Most Just, among other attributes of the Almighty-
"Al Haakim":- A more intensive form of the Arabic word "Haakim". Among its meanings are the Ruler or Sovereign, and the Judge. Some have also said that it means the One who prevents or stops corruption.
"Al-wakeel":- The Disposer of affairs to whom all matters are entrusted. He manages the sustenance of His creation, and He watches over them.
"AS-Samad":-At least four meanings have been ascribed to this name. One of them is
- the One to Whom the creation turns to for its needs and in times of calamity. Moreover, He is not in need of anyone or anything.

Some natural disasters are more widespread than others and the thing is that even believers will not be spared as we maybe encouraging or not stopping evil from spreading in our communities/society/country and/or not standing up for justice.
Some of these disasters are tests for those who have faith and for those who do not believe may realise the frailty of life itself.Also tests the hearts of those who give for the sake of the Almighty even in hardship to those in worse condition than themselves.

Like some volcanic eruptions where whole towns are obliterated I believe are signs of the possible punishment of God and an example to those who survive that the Alimighty is all powerful and that we humans are not invincible.

[talaniman]

I think what the Earth does is what it does, and humans don't fair to well, when they get in the way of the Earth doing its thing, and I think the Earth has been doing its thing a long time. We humans, as good as we think we are, are not the invincible force we think we are. We are nothing to the power of the Earth. What's a disaster for man, is something to do for the Earth.

[ordinaryguy]

Some natural disasters are more widespread than others and the thing is that even believers will not be spared as we maybe encouraging or not stopping evil from spreading in our communities/society/country and/or not standing up for justice.
Some of these disasters are tests for those who have faith and for those who do not believe may realise the frailty of life itself.Also tests the hearts of those who give for the sake of the Almighty even in hardship to those in worse condition than themselves.

There's no doubt that natural disasters test everybody who's affected by them. If it's a matter of finding strength and comfort in God (by all his names) in such circumstances, or learning the frailty of life, I have no problem with that. What I do have a big problem with is the idea that God CAUSES such things to happen, at times and places when they wouldn't otherwise happen by the usual physical processes involved, specifically for the PURPOSE of punishment.

Like some volcanic eruptions where whole towns are obliterated I believe are signs of the possible punishment of God and an example to those who survive that the Alimighty is all powerful and that we humans are not invincible.

So some (but not all) volcanic eruptions that obliterate whole towns are possibly (but not certainly) the punishment of God? I guess that just brings me back to my original question, i.e. how can we distinguish between disasters that are caused by natural processes at work and those that are caused and intended by God as an instrument of punishment?

[firmbeliever]

Each natural disaster maybe a punishment for some and a lesson for others.
We cannot judge who is being punished and who among the spared are good or the bad as the Almighty is the Only True Judge.

Nature exists as I believe under the command of the Almighty and whatever He wills it will be done by "Nature".The process maybe a natural process of techtonic plates rubbing against each other or lava overflowing volcanoes, tsunamis raised due to disturbances of techtonic plates,floods due to rains and/or melting snow etc.

Just because I believe the Almighty is sending these warnings does not mean that it does not follow the natural process it has been for years.

He is the Creator as I believe and He commands "be" and it is!

[NeedKarma]

So what if a volcano erupts or an earthquake happens and there is not a soul around? What punishment or lesson has been meted out then?

[firmbeliever]

So what if a volcano erupts or an earthquake happens and there is not a soul around? What punishment or lesson has been meted out then?

For a believer like me it is a reminder of what we cannot control and that this whole earth will perish when its time comes and that I too will die and that I will have to face my Creator with whatever deeds I did.

Also reminds me of this-

Quran-67: 15 to 19.
"He it is, Who has made the earth subservient to you (i.e. easy for you to walk, to live and to do agriculture on it, etc.), so walk in the path thereof and eat of His provision, and to Him will be the Resurrection.
Do you feel secure that He, Who is over the heaven (Allâh), will not cause the earth to sink with you, then behold it shakes (as in an earthquake)?
Or do you feel secure that He, Who is over the heaven (Allâh), will not send against you a violent whirlwind? Then you shall know how (terrible) has been My Warning?
And indeed those before them belied (the Messengers of Allâh), then how terrible was My denial (punishment)?
Do they not see the birds above them, spreading out their wings and folding them in? None upholds them except the Most Beneficent (Allâh). Verily, He is the All-Seer of everything."

:) do keep in mind that this is what I believe and even if you do not,it makes little difference to my faith.

[NeedKarma]

For a believer like me it is a reminder of what we cannot control and that this whole earth will perish when its time comes and that I too will die ...

Actually this is true for the non-believer as well, it's not religion-specific at all.

[firmbeliever]

It is true that it should remind all but only some think so deeply as you NK..

[ordinaryguy]

Each natural disaster maybe a punishment for some and a lesson for others.
We cannot judge who is being punished and who among the spared are good or the bad as the Almighty is the Only True Judge.

If it happens to me, personally, and I am not spared, does that mean that I was punished? What if I am spared, but those I love are not--how do I interpret that? Are there any general principles at work here, or is it strictly on an individual case-by-case basis?

Nature exists as I believe under the command of the Almighty and whatever He wills it will be done by "Nature".The process maybe a natural process of techtonic plates rubbing against each other or lava overflowing volcanoes, tsunamis raised due to disturbances of techtonic plates,floods due to rains and/or melting snow etc.

Just because I believe the Almighty is sending these warnings does not mean that it does not follow the natural process it has been for years.

He is the Creator as I believe and He commands "be" and it is!

It sounds to me like you are trying to have it both ways: On the one hand, natural disasters are the result of natural processes working according to the laws of chemistry and physics. On the other hand, they are also directed and controlled by the Almighty as instruments of punishment and instruction. I'm still having trouble understanding how this works. I can see the value in believing that the Almighty cares about our sorrows and losses, and helps us learn spiritual lessons from them, and endure them without recrimination and bitterness, but I don't see either the need or the benefit of believing that He CAUSES these things to happen in any direct, specific, immediate sense. If natural processes are sufficient to explain the cause, why suppose that God is directly involved in that aspect of it at all?

do keep in mind that this is what I believe and even if you do not,it makes little difference to my faith.

I'm just trying to understand what you DO believe. So far, I'm befuddled.

[firmbeliever]

If it happens to me, personally, and I am not spared, does that mean that I was punished? What if I am spared, but those I love are not--how do I interpret that? Are there any general principles at work here, or is it strictly on an individual case-by-case basis?
It sounds to me like you are trying to have it both ways: On the one hand, natural disasters are the result of natural processes working according to the laws of chemistry and physics. On the other hand, they are also directed and controlled by the Almighty as instruments of punishment and instruction. I'm still having trouble understanding how this works. I can see the value in believing that the Almighty cares about our sorrows and losses, and helps us learn spiritual lessons from them, and endure them without recrimination and bitterness, but I don't see either the need or the benefit of believing that He CAUSES these things to happen in any direct, specific, immediate sense. If natural processes are sufficient to explain the cause, why suppose that God is directly involved in that aspect of it at all?
I'm just trying to understand what you DO believe. So far, I'm befuddled.

Ordinary guy,
I think you are trying to put me in a box with a nice label which says I either believe in God or I believe in natural disasters being just that,natural:)

I believe the natural processes exist(explainable by science),but all of it obeys the divine Laws and obeys its Creator except humans and jinns which has been given free will.

I believe that all things that exist on this universe and beyond obeys the command of the Almighty. Hence He just has to say "be" and an earthquake can occur where it has never occurred before.Or a tornado could sweep through a town destroying some houses while leaving others untouched.

Everything on this earth is a process that started(by the Almighty) billions etc of years ago.This process involves many natural processes and each one is being guided by the Almighty.
And in each disaster believers are tested,by being in hardship,by losing loved ones,by losing property,but this does not mean those that are spared are loved or not loved by the Almighty.
Wealth and happiness are also tests of the Almighty, whether we spend in good causes or just blindly spend without thought on things that the Almighty has forbidden.

We cannot pinpoint and say so and so is being punished because of such and such deed,that is only with the Almighty as we could never know what is in the hearts of others.

And the final judgement is on the Day of Resurrection I believe and on that day each soul will receive what it has reaped in this lifetime,hence those spared sorrow in this life maybe the weepers in the Hereafter or those that wept in this life maybe in happiness in the Hereafter.

I am sorry if you are not able to understand my point of view, it maybe the difference in our beliefs that makes it difficult to comprehend what I am trying to say.:)

[ordinaryguy]

Ordinary guy,
I think you are trying to put me in a box with a nice label which says I either believe in God or I believe in natural disasters being just that,natural:)

No, I'm not trying to box and label you, I'm trying to find out whether you believe that the Almighty intervenes in the physical world in a way that supersedes or suspends the working of natural laws, for the express PURPOSE of inflicting punishment and teaching lessons. I'm not interested in whether you think He COULD do it. I want to know if you think He DOES do it, regularly and routinely.

I believe the natural processes exist(explainable by science),but all of it obeys the divine Laws and obeys its Creator except humans and jinns which has been given free will.

What are jinns?

I believe that all things that exist on this universe and beyond obeys the command of the Almighty. Hence He just has to say "be" and an earthquake can occur where it has never ocurred before.Or a tornado could sweep through a town destroying some houses while leaving others untouched.

So are you saying that the command of the Almighty sometimes (often?) supersedes the normal working of physical processes to CAUSE disasters that would not happen (at that particular time and place) otherwise?

Everything on this earth is a process that started(by the Almighty) billions etc of years ago.This process involves many natural processes and each one is being guided by the Almighty.

So how could we tell if or when the Almighty's guidance of natural processes suspends or supersedes the normal operation of natural laws? Or are you saying that although it definitely does happen, we have no way to tell whether any particular disaster is an example of it?

And the final judgement is on the Day of Resurrection I believe and on that day each soul will recieve what it has reaped in this lifetime,hence those spared sorrow in this life maybe the weepers in the Hereafter or those that wept in this life maybe in happiness in the Hereafter.

OK, so if the final judgment on the day of resurrection is for the purpose of meting out Divine justice, what's the point of these earthly punishments in the form of Divinely inflicted disasters?

I am sorry if you are not able to understand my point of view, it maybe the difference in our beliefs that makes it difficult to comprehend what I am trying to say.:)

I think I might be coming to understand your point of view and to comprehend what you are trying to say. If I do understand you correctly, it is the difference in our beliefs about the nature of the Almighty's character that makes it difficult for me to adopt your point of view as my own.