[flyhop]

:confused:

Fixing stuff around sister-in-law's house. Said she wanted a dimmer switch installed. This is a double outlet box with single switch for overhead light and a single switch for the sink disposal unit. Bit of a rat's nest of "new" wires (house was sold to her as a flip). Changed out the overhead light switch with rheostat. While I was in there, threw some electrical tape around a wire nut connected up the disposal switch. Turned back on the breaker and NOTHING worked. Thought that was weird, so turned off breaker and changed orientation of wires for rheostat.

As a note, this rheostat has two black wires and a ground (green) coming out of it. Neither black wire gave any notation as to which was meant to be hot or neutral. When I say I changed the orientation of the wires, I switched the one wired for hot to the neutral and vise-versa.

OK, so now the overhead lights work. But the disposal still didn't. Put a voltmeter to it, and the hot-neutral showed 0 volts, but neutral to ground shows 110:eek: . The two bare grounds in the box are not wire-nutted together, and a voltmeter shows minimal voltage across the two grounds. So, now breaker is off, and I'm pulling all of this apart trying to figure out what's what.

I know that a dishwasher is on this circuit, but that appears to be all that's tied to this breaker.

Any ideas on what I should be looking for? This is a real head-scratcher for me. Could I be looking at a short somewhere in this house?

Thanks in advance.

[flyhop]

UPDATE:
Cut power at breaker. Pulled out both switches and all wire nuts. Figured out which set of wires is the supply.
Hot-Neutral = 110 v
Neutral-Gnd = 0 v
Hot-Gnd = 110 v

Is this right?

FWIW, there are 5 sets of Romex coming into this double box.
1. Supply
2. Feed for overhead lights
3. Feed for disposal
4. Feed for diswasher (I'm guessing on that one as I can't follow line from washer but turning off breaker kills it)
5.?
All but two of the ground wires are cut. The other two are loose in the box.
This sure doesn't look right to me.

[pelle]

"hot-neutral showed 0 volts neutral to ground shows 110"

If hot to gound shows 110 then it seems that the neutral is tied into the same leg as the hot.. Look at the connections in the box and besure you didn't connect the neutral to a hot wire.. also check the wiring of the switch and make sure it is hot in and out.. not hot in and out to the neutral. This would put power on that neutral..

[pelle]

Yes that looks correct, our posts must have crossed in cyberspace

[tkrussell]

The neutral wire is OPEN someplace, due to a loose connection.

[flyhop]

UPDATE and clarification to my post #2:
After pulling all of the switches, I found the supply line to be
Hot-Neutral = 110 v
Neutral-Gnd = 0 v
Hot-Gnd = 110 v

On my first post, I said Neu-Gnd was giving voltage. What I've found since is this:

Supply Line - HOT - had a pigtail to feed the two HOT wires (black) of two separate ROMEX lines coming into the box. The neutrals of these same two ROMEX lines are connected to the On-Off Switch for the disposal, and the GNDs for these two pieces of ROMEX are cut off.

I've cut off power at the breaker for now, and I have tested each ROMEX line to ensure power is off. I'm rigging up a continuity tester to figure out which ROMEX supplies what in this kitchen and will monitor and post here a bit later.

My big question right now is about this Hot-Neutral showing 110 V. Is that right? Thanks.

[tkrussell]

Yes you ahould measure 120 volts between the black and white, hot to neutral.
Also black hot to ground.

What is being done with the cut off equipment grounds?

[flyhop]

Yes you ahould measure 120 volts between the black and white, hot to neutral.
Also black hot to ground.

Glad to know this. And, yup, I'm a newbie.

What is being done with the cut off equipment grounds?

I'm just reporting what I found when I pulled the cover off this double box. I'm going to run continuity around the kitchen to find out what ROMEX is what in this box. My plan is to ground what I can. The part that's really got me scratching my head was this:

Supply Line - HOT - had a pigtail to feed the two HOT wires (black) of two seperate ROMEX lines coming into the box. The neutrals of these same two ROMEX lines are connected to the On-Off Switch for the disposal, and the GNDs for these two pieces of ROMEX are cut off.

It would seem this configuration is some kind of a looped circuit. Again, I'll post back when I know what ROMEX line is feeding what.

And thanks for the posts/help.

[KISS]

Remember to tie all the grounds together and then pigtail to the metal box. If any devices have ground lugs, they need to be pigtailed to ground too. Your not supposed to rely on the screw attaching the device to the box.

[flyhop]

I am no engineer, so forgive amateur aspect of attached drawing. Best I could do. Please note that when I wrote "HOT", I mean the black colored wire and "NEUTRAL" is the white wire.

Diagram shows the way this box was wired when I pulled the cover and the switches out. A continuity tester allowed me to identify all but one Romex line coming into the box.

As a response to a posting above, I agree about bringing all of the grounds to a common pigtail and attaching to the box, but box is one of the blue plastic jobs. The supply line DOES have a ground, so my inclination is to join all of the grounds to that.

I do not understand the two Romex lines to the far right on the diagram. The white colored lines from these are feeding the switch for the disposal. Is this so that another circuit elsewhere in the house can get a 110V without having to be switched on?

So, thoughts? Suggestions on how I should wire this up? Thanks in advance.

[Stratmando]

One of the romex may be up to switch and back to Disposal? Disconnecting all and look for power with meter will determine Line(Power in). Connecting momentarily will determine load. All bare(grounds) need to be intact.
The top wire with 2 Question marks I think goes to switch, Connect all whites but this one, Connect all blacks, except black to overhead light. When tieing the blacks(constant hot), add 2 pigtails, one to switch, out of switch to
Lights, need to identify white wire with black tape, and 1 to disposal.

[flyhop]

One of the romex may be up to switch and back to Disposal?. Disconnecting all and look for power with meter will determine Line(Power in). connecting momentarily will determine load. All bare(grounds) need to be intact.
The top wire with 2 Question marks I think goes to switch.

I don't understand this. The disposal switch is in the double gang box, where all of these ROMEX lines lead into. The top wire with 2 question marks leads INTO the box where the switch was installed, and there is only one ROMEX wire going to the disposal.

As I read back over this thread, it occurs to me that I left out something which could be important. Of my diagram, all that I drew is inside the double-gang box.

I'm not saying your wrong. I'm saying that I don't understand. Can you explain this a bit more in depth?

And when you said "look for power with meter will determine Line". Are you saying to disconnect everything, turn the breaker on, and test with multimeter to see which ROMEX is supplying power to this double-gang box?

Thanks.

[flyhop]

My solution is perhaps unorthodox, but it works.

The Romex wire coming into the top of the double-gang box was a mystery, hence the double question marks in my diagram. I can't find anything in the house that has lost power... no outlets, no lights, no nothing. So, I capped the wire ends, and wired everything else up with the switches in the middle of the circuit instead of at the end of the circuit, except of course for the dishwasher which has no switch.

All of the grounds (butt spliced in longer ground wires on those which were cut off... that was fun) are wound together.

It's a bit unsettling to have a wire doing nothing. Since it was wired up the other day, it had to have been supplying power to something. But for tonight, it works. It's 1 am here, so I'll look at this fresh tomorrow.

[tkrussell]

One other thing I noticed, the switch is switching the neutral wire, this should not be. Never switch a neutral.

I wonder about all the other wiring boxes, switches, and outlets in the home. Is every ground wire cut off? Nothing is grounded? I bet there are three wire outlets everywhere with out a working ground wire.


Also, the circuit for a disposal and esp. a dishwasher should be just for appliances, and I see lights connected to the same circuit.

[Stratmando]

Yes, I was saying disconnect all to determine line, You have Identified that already. Don't need too. Sounds like you have everything working. You can leave capped off unidentified wire, In the future, if you find a receptacle or switch doing nothing, I would see if it can be reconnected. If all is fine now, don't worry about it, just remember.

[flyhop]

One other thing I noticed, the switch is switching the neutral wire, this should not be. Never switch a neutral.

Agreed. I've changed this so it's switching a hot to the disposal and the neutral is now connected to the line out/supply. I'm reconfiguring the other switch to be in the middle of the circuit... you know, as long as I'm in there.

I wonder about all the other wiring boxes, switches, and outlets in the home. Is every ground wire cut off? Nothing is grounded? I bet there are three wire outlets everywhere with out a working ground wire.

I've had the same concern. I've pulled a couple of outlets and switches just to check. Haven't found any just yet.

Also, the circuit for a disposal and esp. a dishwasher should be just for appliances, and I see lights connected to the same circuit.

That's a good thought. I hadn't thought of that. Unfortunately, I don't live in this town. I'm just doing my SIL a favor (actually a few projects) while we are here visiting. Point is, I don't have the time this weekend to put in a new breaker/circuit. I'll have to catch this next time.

Many thanks to all of the good folks here. Your help has been spot-on. I'll be back.

[tkrussell]

I learned to leave my tools home when I visit. But then I got to work with lousy home owner tools. So may as well bring my good ones.