[speechlesstx]

Changing Patterns in Social Fabric Test Netherlands' Liberal Identity

AMSTERDAM -- For years, W.B. Kranendonk was a lone ranger in Dutch politics -- the editor of an orthodox Christian newspaper in a nation that has legalized prostitution, euthanasia, abortion and same-sex marriage and allows the personal use of marijuana.

Today, with an orthodox Christian political party in the government for the first time, and with immigration anxieties fueling a national search for identity, the country that has been the world's most socially liberal political laboratory is rethinking its anything-goes policies.

And suddenly, Kranendonk no longer seems so all alone.

"People in high political circles are saying it can't be good to have a society so liberal that everything is allowed," said Kranendonk, editor of Reformist Daily and an increasingly influential voice that resonates in the shifting mainstream of Dutch public opinion. "People are saying we should have values; people are asking for more and more rules in society..."

The effort to rein in the Netherlands' famed social liberties is not limited to the small, newly empowered Christian Union party, which holds two of the 16 ministries in the coalition government formed this year. Increasingly, politicians from the more center-left Labor Party are among the most outspoken proponents of closing some brothels and marijuana shops -- known here as "coffee shops..."

"This toleration policy goes back 35 years," said Veling, snapping the lids off plastic boxes of pungent marijuana blends marked Neville's Haze and White Widow. "Now the word 'coffee shop' has become a symbol of something we don't like about society."

But historian Kennedy describes the attitude as a national "weariness with moral squalor -- the Dutch have grown tired of it and unwilling to put up with it."

Well I'll be, do you think the left in the U.S. will ever tire of the "moral squalor" they now advocate? It seems the Dutch are not only tiring of the "moral squalor," they're afraid they're losing control of their country and identity to an influx of immigrants:

The Netherlands is going through the same racial, ethnic and religious metamorphosis as the rest of Western Europe: Large influxes of black, Arab and Muslim immigrants are changing the social complexion of an overwhelmingly white, Christian nation struggling with its loss of homogeneity.

But here those anxieties are exacerbated by alarm over the international crime organizations that have infiltrated the country's prostitution and drug trades, the increasing prevalence of trafficking in women and children across its borders, and dismay over the Netherlands' image as an international tourist destination for drugs and sexual debauchery.

"There is an uneasiness about globalization that the Dutch don't have control over their own country anymore," said James C. Kennedy, professor of contemporary history at the Free University of Amsterdam. "There is a more conservative mood in the country that is interested in setting limits and making sure things don't get out of hand."

It seems much of Western Europe is waking up, how long before America does?

[magprob]

I don't know but I hope they don't close the Milky Way (Melkweg) until I get back to Amsterdam.
Amsterdam.info » Entertainment » Melkweg, Amsterdam

[michealb]

It seems much of Western Europe is waking up, how long before America does?

Are you saying this cause you think that America is living moral squaller? Cause I always thought we were well on way to becoming the least free society of the first world nations.

[speechlesstx]

I don't know but I hope they don't close the Milky Way (Melkweg) untill I get back to Amsterdam.
Amsterdam.info » Entertainment » Melkweg, Amsterdam

Hmmm, "De Melkweg is housed in a former diary, hence the name (The Milky Way)." Must have been a HUGE diary. :D

[speechlesstx]

Are you saying this cause you think that America is living moral squaller? Cause I always thought we were well on way to becoming the least free society of the first world nations.

Actually, I do believe much of America is a "moral squalor," but that statement is in refence to the second part of the post, the part about "The Netherlands is going through the same racial, ethnic and religious metamorphosis as the rest of Western Europe: Large influxes of black, Arab and Muslim immigrants are changing the social complexion..."There is an uneasiness about globalization that the Dutch don't have control over their own country anymore."

But actually you're right, we are on our way to "becoming the least free society of the first world nations," what with all the speech codes, hate laws, indoctrination and intolerance coming from the left side of spectrum.

[michealb]

I thought the new test that the Dutch put out was great. It was not threating but also tells people that don't hold their values, don't apply.
Immigrants exposed to liberal Dutch ways - Europe - MSNBC.com

[speechlesstx]

I thought the new test that the Dutch put out was great. It was not threating but also tells people that don't hold their values, don't apply.
Immigrants exposed to liberal Dutch ways - Europe - MSNBC.com

Dutch theologian Karel Steenbrink criticized the 105-minute movie, saying it would be offensive to some Muslims.

No kidding? See, now that's the problem, too many people afraid of offending Muslims. So much so that the left is all too willing to appease Islam to their own detriment. On the other hand, offending Christians is a sport.

[michealb]

People worry about offending Muslims for 2 reason

1.) They are a minority in first world nations and at least in the US everyone is so scared of being labeled as intolerant that, it almost doesn't matter what the minority asks for they get it.
2.) muslims have the rep for blowing stuff up when they are offended. (I'm not saying all muslims blow stuff up, I'm not saying I think they blow stuff. I'm just saying that the majority thinks that they blow stuff up when they are unhappy.)

Offending Christians, I personally haven't seem much of that unless your talking about things like keeping church and state separate.

[speechlesstx]

People worry about offending Muslims for 2 reason

1.) They are a minority in first world nations and at least in the US everyone is so scared of being labeled as intolerant that, it almost doesn't matter what the minority asks for they get it.

Well michaelb, I'm not afraid of being labeled intolerant :D

I personally think all that minority crap is just that. We've been told so long it doesn't matter what color a person's skin, gender, religion is - but when are those telling us that going to act like it? I really don't care about any of that stuff, I care about their character (didn't MLK say something about that?), and I believe that is largely the norm in the U.S. these days, so why do we need to be giving preferences to minorities?

2.) muslims have the rep for blowing stuff up when they are offended. (I'm not saying all muslims blow stuff up, I'm not saying I think they blow stuff. I'm just saying that the majority thinks that they blow stuff up when they are unhappy.)

Islamists have a rep for blowing stuff (and people) up, and it's an earned reputation. Moderate Muslims need to stand up and take back their religion if they want to thought of as a religion of peace. Otherwise, the The Religion of Perpetual Outrage is a blight to society that deserves all the contempt it receives and then some.

Offending Christians, I personally haven't seem much of that unless your talking about things like keeping church and state separate.

I take it you haven't spent any time at that other forum which shall remain nameless, or kept up with what's going on at our college campuses and in our courtrooms. Intolerance is alive and well in the U.S. and those who complain the loudest are the prime offenders.

[jillianleab]

Perhaps if you feel you are being persecuted for being a Christian, you should complain to the leaders of this country, as Christian denominations dominate our government:

Religious Affiliation of U.S. Presidents * Religion
Religion of U.S. Congress

But alas, I fail to see how the dominant religion in our country is persecuted:

About the USA > Society > Religions

Just because our government maintains a separation of church and state doesn't mean you are being attacked. And just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean you are being attacked. That seems to be a common thought (especially on this site), however. Have you not come to realize it's impossible to make everyone happy, so maybe everyone should just compromise? It's key to remember not everyone is the same religion and our Constitution gives rights to all. Your article refers to banning public prayer at schools: would you complain if I was forcing your child to endure a session of "god does not exist" or if your child was forced to sit through Muslim prayers, Buddhist, Jewish, etc. directed to the whole school? Just because you are the majority doesn't mean you are right.

[michealb]

Many Christians would argue that their kids already have to sit through a session of "god does not exist" we just call it science class.

[speechlesstx]

Perhaps if you feel you are being persecuted for being a Christian, you should complain to the leaders of this country, as Christian denominations dominate our government:

Religious Affiliation of U.S. Presidents * Religion
Religion of U.S. Congress

But alas, I fail to see how the dominant religion in our country is persecuted:

About the USA > Society > Religions

Just because our government maintains a separation of church and state doesn't mean you are being attacked. And just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean you are being attacked. That seems to be a common thought (especially on this site), however. Have you not come to realize it's impossible to make everyone happy, so maybe everyone should just compromise? It's key to remember not everyone is the same religion and our Constitution gives rights to all. Your article refers to banning public prayer at schools: would you complain if I was forcing your child to endure a session of "god does not exist" or if your child was forced to sit through Muslim prayers, Buddhist, Jewish, etc. directed to the whole school? Just because you are the majority doesn't mean you are right.

jillianleab, perhaps you investigate the links I offered michaelb further as a start. If you haven't noticed how hunting Christians for sport, particularly evangelical conservatives, has become a prominent part of society then you haven't been paying attention. I am not a "woe is me" kind of guy, and I have no issue with "separation of church and state" as the framers intended, but I despise hypocrites that clamor for tolerance while bashing Christians. I'll be more than happy to provide adequate examples if you can't find enough. I'm all for compromise as well, but about 7 years of frequenting forums such as this and even more watching the intolerant left tells me compromise is a one way street - their way. That's not my idea of compromise.

[jillianleab]

You're right, no one should be bashed for their religious beliefs. Perhaps I was a little overzealous with my post. :)

But I think a lot of the "Christian bashing" you refer to is directed at fundamental Christians who push their values on anyone and everyone around them. There are some Christians in this world who want the US and the rest of the world to become Christian and think there is no acceptable alternative. Yet at the same time, they will hide under the guise of Christianity being a loving, tolerant religion (which it can be). I have several friends who are Christians and are very loving and tolerant, but who also understand and appreciate the importance of church and state. Additionally, a lot of the "Christian bashing" is conducted by fundamental non-Christians who are out to seek and destroy the religion and everyone in it. I don't agree with that either.

I guess what I'm saying is neither side can go out and demand tolerance for their beliefs while seeking to squash other's beliefs. I did poke around on the link you provided, and I ask you, why should there be Christian symbols on government buildings, but not Jewish symbols, or hell, Satanist symbols? In my opinion, a government building shouldn't have ANY religious affiliation, so as to welcome all and exclude none. My previous point about public prayer in school still stands as well. I'm all for allowing students to pray on their own, but in a public school it should not be conducted by the school. Again, if you allow that how do you justify prohibiting prayer to Satan? That being said, there is no reason a person of any religion should not be allowed to wear a necklace or emblem of their faith, unless it violates school dress code rules (i.e. no jewelry allowed at all).

The point in the links I provided were to illustrate that while Christians will go on and on about being unfairly treated, they are in fact the most well represented group in this country. Religious organizations influence the government with a TON of weight (pun intended!) and when they get special treatment, it ticks off those who don't benefit. An example is churches being tax exempt; why? They only provide a service to people who conform to their belief system, not to the general public. In my area, a police officer directs traffic at the intersection (where there is a traffic light) when church lets out so the church-goers don't have to wait in long lines of traffic in the parking lot. Meanwhile, I'm stuck waiting and waiting and waiting until the lot is empty, even though I have the green light. So who's being targeted there? Why are my tax dollars going to direct traffic to keep a class of people out of traffic when my tax dollars already went to the traffic light right out front? Did you know that AA, which is commonly sentenced to drunk drivers is a religious organization? The 12 steps REQUIRE you acknowledge the existence of God. Not a god, but God. If someone has been sent to AA by the court doesn't convert (or lie) he has not completed the program and can be sent to jail. Where is the fairness in that?

I think your statement:

watching the intolerant left tells me compromise is a one way street - their way.

could be said about the right as well. In government there is no such thing as compromise, and for many religious folks the same holds true. The left is quick to blame the right for the problems in the world and the right is quick to blame the left, when in truth, neither side has got it all figured out and if our elected officials were introduced to a word called "compromise" maybe they WOULD figure it out. Intolerance from either side gets no one anywhere. It just angers me to no end when someone says "you aren't respecting my beliefs!" when they aren't respecting any one else's.

[speechlesstx]

You're right, no one should be bashed for their religious beliefs. Perhaps I was a little overzealous with my post. :)

We all get a little overzealous at times :D

But I think a lot of the "Christian bashing" you refer to is directed at fundamental Christians who push their values on anyone and everyone around them.

I think I emphasized evangelical conservatives, and we're not just bashed - we are too often hated with a passion that defies explanation.

There are some Christians in this world who want the US and the rest of the world to become Christian and think there is no acceptable alternative. Yet at the same time, they will hide under the guise of Christianity being a loving, tolerant religion (which it can be).

Christians have a mission to evangelize, but it's a matter of reasoning not imposing. Those you speak of are the minority, and the rest of us pay a price - "profiling" if you will.

I have several friends who are Christians and are very loving and tolerant, but who also understand and appreciate the importance of church and state. Additionally, a lot of the "Christian bashing" is conducted by fundamental non-Christians who are out to seek and destroy the religion and everyone in it. I don't agree with that either.

There are an alarming number of people so convinced that conservative Christians - all of them - are the greatest threat society has ever faced that it's impossible to have a rational discussion with them. On the other hand, there are also a number of fundamentalist Christians that feel the same in return.

I guess what I'm saying is neither side can go out and demand tolerance for their beliefs while seeking to squash other's beliefs.

Exactly.

I did poke around on the link you provided, and I ask you, why should there be Christian symbols on government buildings, but not Jewish symbols, or hell, Satanist symbols? In my opinion, a government building shouldn't have ANY religious affiliation, so as to welcome all and exclude none.

The thing here is those fighting for 'removal' of such things are seeking to rewrite history. You can't remove the Judeo-Christian influence of this nation and its founding and accurately depict the history of this country. Many people don't recognize that it isn't just Christianity recognized on public buildings and such. For instance, the Supreme Court building has representations of Moses, Solon and Confucius. And I contend, as do many, many others that "separation of church and state" has been misinterpreted. There is nothing in the constitution excluding religion from government, it states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." As far as I know our government has never "established" an official religion, and there is nothing in the constitution providing for freedom from being offended.

The point in the links I provided were to illustrate that while Christians will go on and on about being unfairly treated, they are in fact the most well represented group in this country.

Yes, and that's because like it or not, America is a "Christian" nation. It has always been a Christian nation, the influences of Christianity can be seen throughout our history and the majority of our citizens call themselves Christian. That doesn't mean government has or should establish Christianity as its official religion, quite the contrary. Worship as you choose - or not - we've been quite welcoming of other religions, but if you try to shut us out don't get upset when we fight back. We are still the majority so why shouldn't our values reflect that?

Religious organizations influence the government with a TON of weight (pun intended!) and when they get special treatment, it ticks off those who don't benefit. An example is churches being tax exempt; why? They only provide a service to people who conform to their belief system, not to the general public.

That last sentence is entirely untrue. Not every church or religious organization has the same ministries, but they nearly all have (and if they don't they should) outreach ministries. That's the sum of our purpose and calling, to minister to others in need. We give in the billions of dollars every year and in man-hours to help others here and abroad with food, shelter, clothing, housing, medical care, etc. and for most there is no requirement to "conform to their belief system." There may be a requirement to sit through a sermon or something in some cases, but the church is about YOU making a decision, not forcing our beliefs. The more you saddle a church with taxes and such the less it has to help someone else in need, and we can do a lot more with our money than the feds can.

In my area, a police officer directs traffic at the intersection (where there is a traffic light) when church lets out so the church-goers don't have to wait in long lines of traffic in the parking lot. Meanwhile, I'm stuck waiting and waiting and waiting until the lot is empty, even though I have the green light. So who's being targeted there?

I don't know about your situation, but where I am if that's the case then the church pays for the officer's presence. We do have a huge church here that requires traffic control and the church pays all the expenses for the officers. Any private entity that wants police presence at an event does the same, so it isn't costing the taxpayers anything.

Did you know that AA, which is commonly sentenced to drunk drivers is a religious organization? The 12 steps REQUIRE you acknowledge the existence of God. Not a god, but God. If someone has been sent to AA by the court doesn't convert (or lie) he has not completed the program and can be sent to jail. Where is the fairness in that?

Good question, and I would think someone in that case has an argument. But did you know in many states they are encouraging prison ministries because they've been so effective at changing lives? How do you argue with success, simply because it has religious connotations?

Intolerance from either side gets no one anywhere. It just angers me to no end when someone says "you aren't respecting my beliefs!" when they aren't respecting any one else's.

Amen! Sorry if that offended you but I agree :)

If you watch closely though, you'll see the intolerance is far greater coming from the left than the right. All across the country colleges have allowed and provided for everything from atheist groups to The Vagina Monologues while rejecting using those same student fees to sponsor College Republicans. Here is a particular example I find totally outrageous, and another so silly it's hard to believe. A lot of what you're seeing from conservative Christians is fighting back to preserve our rights, we've been pushed to the limit and we're not going to go down without a fight.

[jillianleab]

You did emphasize evangelical Christians, and I agree, many are hated with a passion, quite unfairly. That happens with all groups, religious or otherwise. It is an instance of profiling. I've been profiled on this site several times as a "Christian-hater" because I'm not a Christian, because I don't share the same belief system. It's a generalization, it's not fair, and people should be treated as individuals, not as a group. Unfortunately, in our society, it's hard to distinguish the individual from the group (like how anyone who speaks Spanish is called a Mexican illegal immigrant). Happens all the time to everyone, but making generalizations is the best way to get your point across sometimes. I try to say things like "some" or "many" not "all" because I know not ALL of any group is the same. I wish more people would put the same qualifiers in their statements.

There are an alarming number of people so convinced that conservative Christians - all of them - are the greatest threat society has ever faced that it's impossible to have a rational discussion with them.

Not all - just some! :)

I understand our country was founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs and it is a large part of our history, and honestly, the basic tenents of Christianity I agree with (the whole don't steal, don't kill people, etc). But what seems to be happening now is that the Christian ideals are being pushed onto the American people with a lot of force, and there are special interest groups who are trying to make this a "Christian nation". We can be founded on Christianity but not be declared Christian. I recently read an article about a portrait of Jesus on display in a court house which has Jesus holding the bible and there are two quotes from the bible which reference justice. Mysteriously, no one knows who hung the painting..? Anyway, the message a display like that sends to non-Christians is that "only Christians get justice here". And that's the problem with government buildings having Christian symbols on them. It indicates the government is endorsing a religion, which it is not supposed to do.

I'll admit you are right, many churches do provide relief in disaster areas, which is good work. However, there have been indications that some (there's that word again!) will only provide relief to individuals of the same religion. Missionary groups to Africa are out to convert Africans to Christianity, but will only give assistance if the community converts (again, some, not all). Those sorts of actions give all Christians a bad name. I'll also admit I do not know if the churches in my area pay for their police presence or not. But you are right, if they are paying for it, it costs me no money and I should just shut my pie hole! :)

I am aware of prison ministries, and of their success. I have no problem with those programs so long as they are elective. If it is a condition of release an inmate must complete the program and give himself over to Jesus, well, we have a problem! That's my beef with AA - it's required in many cases. Let me add I don't think religion is a bad thing, not at all. I also don't think all people who believe in God are idiots or less intelligent than me (many people think all atheists think this, and it's just not true). I think a lot of people NEED religion. They need something to believe in, a higher power, the sense of community, and so on. Churches and religion have saved many people from themselves, provided them with guidance they otherwise don't have and has given them meaning to their life. I have a friend who years ago I worked retail with. We worked together on Sundays, and she came to work after church. There were times that Saturday night we were working together, and she would be down on herself and her life, then Sunday, after going to church, she would have a renewed spirit, if you will. All from just listening to a sermon. Good for her; actually, GREAT for her! Her faith, her going to church gave her perspecitve and showed her the GOOD things in her life, and how to fix the bad. In my book, that's a great thing. And you know what? She never once tried to push her ideals on me, and I never pushed mine on her. I'm all for allowing people to believe and practice whatever it is they want so long as they aren't hurting anyone. But what I don't understand, or appreciate, is when I'm bullied because I believe something different. I don't see where the tolerance is in that situation. I get that it's your "mission" to spread your faith, but why not concentrate your efforts on people who WANT saving instead of screaming "heathen!" at those who do not? Got news for you, that's not going to make me "find Jesus"! I really, honestly, don't get it. Why can't you take "no" for an answer? Again, by "you" I don't mean you specifically, or all Christians, but I hope you can agree there are some out there like that!

I'm not offended by an "Amen!" I'm actually pretty tough to offend!

I'll give you the religious intolerance is coming harder from the left, but it doesn't mean the right-wingers are a sitting around with halos over their heads. The articles you linked to (the college examples) are outrageous. I got a particular kick out of this:

a student who considers individual responsibility to be good would be a “bad” teacher.

Wha?? And banning Dave Barry... well, I read one of his articles a few months ago and laughed so hard I cried. Actual tears we streaming down my face and it made my stomach hurt. If that makes him a "bad guy" well, too bad, because that "bad guy" is also funny as you-know-what! As I said before, neither side has got it right. The left wants to make society responsible for everything and the right wants everyone to give themselves over to Jesus, because that will make us a better society. They're both wrong. Funny how a bipartisan system doesn't work so well...

You mention that the conservative Christians are fighting for their rights, and I'm all for that. But what I see a lot of is the insistence of Christian values and icons in places where they don't belong. Take the Super Bowl Janet Jackson nipple thing from a few years back. The image flashed so quickly on the screen that a lot of people didn't even know what had just happened, yet conservative special interest groups started screaming that it was lewd and there should be fines and lawsuits and blah blah blah. Come on. It was a boob. Just because your kid sees a boob flash on TV doesn't mean he's going to turn into a serial rapist and kill the family dog. It's a boob. All women have them, and so do a lot of men (ick). Go onto any US beach and you can find probably 10 men with bigger boobs than Janet Jackson, but no one is freaking about that. I know a lot of the question was, "did the station know it was going to happen" and "did the performers plan it" (which deserved attention) but overall, I think the whole thing got blown out of proportion. How about we get some of the violence off TV and worry less about a boob on screen for .5 second?

[michealb]

How many christian colleges allow atheist groups to speak at their colleges?
I won't argue that around the country people are being discriminated against but its not just christians. Try being a muslim in america or worse try being an atheist. Did you know George Bush is on record to saying that "I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots." Imagine if the person that holds the highest office in the land didn't even support your right to be a citizen.

Also like it or not we are not a christian nation. We are a nation that was founded by people who were christian and the majority of the people in this county are christian. That does not make us a christian nation.

Back to the subject I think the United States could learn something from the freedoms that the netherlands allows.
Social Indicator Comparison Year
Lifetime prevalence of marijuana use (ages 12+) 2001
USA 36.9%
Netherlands 17.0%
Past month prevalence of marijuana use (ages 12+) 2001
USA 5.4%
Netherlands 3.0%
Lifetime prevalence of heroin use (ages 12+) 2001
USA 1.4%
Netherlands 0.4%
Incarceration Rate per 100,000 population 2002
USA 701
Netherlands 100
Per capita spending on criminal justice system (in Euros) 1998
USA €379
Netherlands €223
Homicide rate per 100,000 population Average 1999-2001
USA 5.56
Netherlands 1.51

[speechlesstx]

The left wants to make society responsible for everything and the right wants everyone to give themselves over to Jesus, because that will make us a better society. They're both wrong. Funny how a bipartisan system doesn't work so well....

Nearly everyone thinks everyone else should think like they do, but in my experience the left - and I'm talking about the radical, extremely vocal secular left - believes they are so far superior than conservatives that our ideas aren't even worthy of consideration. We might as well just shut up and accept what they know is best for us. Granted, there are those on the right that feel the same way such as Fred Phelps and his Westboro "Baptist Church," and Michael Savage. The average conservative wants nothing to do with them, nor do we have designs on developing a Christian theocracy as so many people have an irrational fear of. If you can't worship, or not, how you choose then neither can we.

Anyway, enough of that, you've earned my respect and I hope I can earn yours even though we may disagree quite a bit :D

[jillianleab]

There is a vocal left who thinks they are right and there is a vocal right who thinks they are right. No one likes to be told they are wrong, but I'll say it; they're both wrong!! :)

I think what you say about the "average conservative" is true for the "average liberal" too; I bet if a third, moderate party existed in our government it would draw a lot of support. Poor, poor US... stuck with an antiquated bipartisan system!

Glad to hear I have your respect, and trust me, I have the ability to respect people who have different views than I, so; right back at you!

At least we agree on the principle issue; you can't condem someone for intolerance when you yourself are intolerant. If only more people would frequent AMHD and learn a thing or two...

[speechlesstx]

How many christian colleges allow atheist groups to speak at their colleges?

Allow me to clarify, I'm speaking of taxpayer funded institutions.

I won't argue that around the country people are being discriminated against but its not just christians. Try being a muslim in america or worse try being an atheist.

No thanks, I'm happy being a conservative Christian :D

Did you know George Bush is on record to saying that "I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots." Imagine if the person that holds the highest office in the land didn't even support your right to be a citizen.

I had not heard that but apparently it was the first Bush, George H.W. Bush, not the current president. And he was wrong for saying it.

Also like it or not we are not a christian nation. We are a nation that was founded by people who were christian and the majority of the people in this county are christian. That does not make us a christian nation.

Actually it does, it's just not "official," and I don't believe anyone needs to fear it will officially become a Christian nation. But the prinicples on which the U.S. was founded are definitely Judeo-Christian principles - no matter how much one tries to rewrite our history.

Back to the subject I think the United States could learn something from the freedoms that the netherlands allows.

Well it seems from the original post that the Netherlands is rethinking some of those freedoms :D

[speechlesstx]

At least we agree on the principle issue; you can't condem someone for intolerance when you yourself are intolerant.

How refeshing :)