[excon]

Hello fellow wingers:

With the exception of the war in Iraq, I do agree with my fellow right wingers about the Middle East. But, I have lots of questions.

Is Israel better off with Hamas in control of Gaza or Fatah? I don't know. They're ALL terrorists. Is one terrorist group better than another? Even though Bush set the tone for Hamas's election, Bush wants the Israli's to give weapons to Fatah. Is that a good idea? Such weapons are likely to wind up in the hands of Hamas as previous ones have.

And, since Bush now loves the Iranians, because he knows he needs them to succeed in Iraq, when is Israel going to bomb the Iranian nuke program? Who is going to let Israli jets fly over their country?

Pretty screwed up over there. There are THREE civil wars happening: Iraq, Lebanon and Gaza. The interesting thing about those wars is that Israel isn't involved in any of them. It's Islamists against moderates (if you want to call Fatah a moderate).

It's a powder keg. It's all one war, isn't it? Our boy's are in the middle of it. It's out of control. It's going to get bigger and worse. Whether we stay in Iraq or go isn't going to change that.

excon

[speechlesstx]

my fellow right wingers

What have you been smokin' Ex? Nah, no need to answer that. Well you have lots of good questions for which I have no good answers, other than it is all one war - and if those Islamists have their way it's going to continue to spread way beyond the middle east. But I'm sure Nancy Pelosi can put her Hijab back on, get over there a few more times and settle it once and for all.

[tomder55]

The interesting thing about those wars is that Israel isn't involved in any of them.

Kassam missiles land on Israel daily in the western Negev, and its main town, Sderot. ;of course the only time it makes the news is when Israel retaliates .

It looks like a Hamas victory in Gaza is pretty much a done deal . So Palestine is defacto a partitioned country (if one still believes in a nation called Palestine) . I betcha the folks in Gaza are pining for them good ole days of the brutal Israeli occupation. But even as they are getting their a**kicked the Fatah folks blame Israel for their problems. Perhaps all the mirrors have been broken in the strip.

I think events in Gaza may be an example of what is foretold in Iraq if we do leave before the nation is stabilized. There is a fantasy that says that we are the problem there and that if we would just leave that they would be able to sort it all out themselves .

The battles going on in Gaza involve an Iranian client Hamas. The battles in Lebanon are the by product of Iranian client Hezzbollah supported directly by Iranian puppet Syria. I documented on the other site direct evidence of Iranian meddling in Iraq;supporting both Shia and Sunni elements . They build the IEDs that kill our troops . Joe Lieberman properly identified training camps on the Iranian side of the border training terrorists .Iranian Qud forces have attacked American troops in Iraq . When we captured Iranian agents in Iraq the Iranians retaliated by capturing American citizens. Somehow I begin to see a pattern. Actually I 've seen it for some time . The exit strategy is a road that runs through Tehran.

But that is only an exit strategy from the Middle East. Consider some other realities . ABC News: Pakistani City Transformed by Militants Islamists destroying Pakistani city . There are many other such stories being played out in European cities ,in the far East ,on the Indian sub-continent or the horn of Africa . I call it for lack of a better term Jihadistan and it is global in nature .National boundaries do not mean much to them . The one common trait of the movement is the destruction and human misery it leaves in it's wake. Having toppled the golden dome ;they weren't happy until the golden minarets came down also .

The way to defeat America is to destroy the people the jihadi claims to be protecting from American occupation. Just like the Israeli occupation of Gaza ;the Iraqi's will long for the good ole days of American occupation if we leave them in the clutches of as sinister a totalitarian movement as has ever scourged the planet.

Millions of students in the madrassas learning the virulent brand of hate is beginning to bite them in the butt. When they could dispatch them to Afghanistan to fight the Ruskies or to America then they could keep the boiler plate under control. When the US decided to take the battle to them the action got a little closer to home.When the economies of Saudi Arabia and Iran collapse due to oil depletion, their populations will turn on their own . Khomeni understood that the ground could be scorched because it was not as important as the movement. Ahamadjihad is his perfect disciple.

Other points :
Israel launched a new spy satellite the Ofek-7 it orbits over Iran every 90 minutes. They will not let Iran get nukes .Neither will we.

[speechlesstx]

I think events in Gaza may be an example of what is foretold in Iraq if we do leave before the nation is stabilized. There is a fantasy that says that we are the problem there and that if we would just leave that they would be able to sort it all out themselves.

By golly I think you're right. And you're also right that Iran will not get nukes.

[ETWolverine]

Is Israel better off with Hamas in control of Gaza or Fatah? I don't know. They're ALL terrorists. Is one terrorist group better than another? Even though Bush set the tone for Hamas's election, Bush wants the Israli's to give weapons to Fatah. Is that a good idea? Such weapons are likely to wind up in the hands of Hamas as previous ones have.

NONE of them are good options. You'll notice that Gaza was actually more peaceful when Israel controlled it. The best option is for Israel to retake Gaza and seal it up, build a bunch of Israeli cities and ANNEX the whole friggin' thing. And if the Arabs get out of hand, you bomb the $h!t out of them until they stop.

Barring that, Fatah seems to be the better choice to support. Fatah is at least willing to make noises about negotiations with Israel. Hamas refuses to even countenance the idea of sitting down at the barganing table.

How did Bush set the tone for Hamas being elected. All he did was push for elections in the PA. He gave the Palestinians the chane to throw off their own internal aggressors by voting in a real democratic government. They failed to take that chance. I don't see why that is Bush's fault.

And I don't think that Bush or Israel should support giving arms to either side of the fight. Let them kill each other with stone knives and spears for all I care.

And, since Bush now loves the Iranians, because he knows he needs them to succeed in Iraq, when is Israel going to bomb the Iranian nuke program? Who is going to let Israli jets fly over their country?

Huh? Where did you get the idea that Bush needs Iran to succeed in Iraq, or that Bush "loves" them? Far as I can tell, that's not the case. Bush is still pissed at Ahmadinejad for supporting Hizbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in the PA against Israel last summer, as well as their supplying weapons to terrorists in Iraq. I don't think Bush would shed a tear if Israel were to bomb the nuclear facilities in Iran. In fact, I think he would tell Ahmadinejad that he reaps what he sows.

Pretty screwed up over there. There are THREE civil wars happening: Iraq, Lebanon and Gaza. The interesting thing about those wars is that Israel isn't involved in any of them. It's Islamists against moderates (if you want to call Fatah a moderate).

Yes it is interesting. But I don't see Iraq as a civil war. The insurgents in Iraq are for the most part foreigners. Foreigners can't fight a civil war. A civil war is between two parts or factions of the same country, which Iraq is not.

However, I would argue with your premise that Israel is not involved in any of them. In my opinion, Israel is directly involved in the Lebanese struggle. The outcome of that battle will have a dirrect effect on Israel's military status. If the Hez win over there, it will mean war for Israel for a long time to come. If the legal government in Lebanon wins the war, there's a fair-to-middling chance at a cesation of open hostilities, if not outright peace. And the same argument is true of Gaza.

Can Fatah be called moderate? I'll answer with one of Meir Kahane's responses: A moderate Muslim is a Muslim that wants to kill Jews moderately. There's no such thing as a Moderate terrorist.

It's a powder keg. It's all one war, isn't it? Our boy's are in the middle of it. It's out of control. It's going to get bigger and worse. Whether we stay in Iraq or go isn't going to change that.

Now you've got the idea. So the only question is whether we wish to pull out of the Middle East and let the enemy come here to attack us on our turf, or whether we wish to continue engaging them over there on their turf. Seems to me that 2,102 days without a terrorist attack on American soil (compared to roughly one to two attacks against us per year prior to that for the previous 40 years) is a pretty good indicator of whether the current strategy is working as a prevention of terrorism here at home.

Nothing argues success better than success.

Elliot

[tomder55]

Can Fatah be called moderate? I'll answer with one of Meir Kahane's responses: A moderate Muslim is a Muslim that wants to kill Jews moderately. There's no such thing as a Moderate terrorist.

Did you read the report about the Fatah leader who was on the phone frantically shouting and pleading for mercy ,asking why he was going to be killed... he isn't a Jew .

Power Line says : If Israelis were murdering Fatah members with the gusto now being shown by Hamas, the U.N. Security Council would be in special session, cranking out resolutions. It would be an international crisis, on which events in Iraq, Iran, Jordan, Egypt and Afghanistan would be blamed for decades to come. But no one seems to get too exercised about Palestinians killing one another.

You are right about Gaza .With Egyptian cooperation it should be isolated and let it rot. If there is any negotiating partner left with the Palestinians ;and that is a big IF ;it can be found on the West Bank.