[ActionJackson]

[QUOTE=stargazer10] I do not associate myself with any specific religion because I do not really think we can know which religion is correct. There may be aspects of each religion which are correct and aspects which are incorrect. And since religion is based off faith we cannot know for a fact what religion is "correct." So I believe that each religion (and each scientific theory) is right in some way (meaning I am open minded).
I do accept whole-heartedly is the evolution theory because there are scientific facts (tons of evidence) which supports it. QUOTE]

You could have saved yourself a lot of time if you had simply said, "I don't have a clue and I'm a bit lost right now." We would have understood and not thought any less of you. Your basic premise is that everybody is right and nobody is wrong (that is unless you are a Christian then you must be wrong because your beliefs don't jive with mine).

Your "tons" of scientific evidence that support evolution are eroding at a rapid pace. Modern science is discovering facts that are continuing to threaten the entire theory of evolution. Have you ever heard of Michael Behe? Don't worry, he's not a Christian, he's just a biochemist that wrote the book "Darwin's Black Box." Have you ever heard of his discovery known as "irreducible complexity?" Probably not, the news media keeps these kinds of things under wrap. Nonetheless, there's enough evidence in this one little book written by this one little scientist to blow the theory of evolution out of the water.

[startover22]

Modern Christianity has lost its savor. The mainstream church is a bit namby pamby. Just accept everyone and everything just the way it is and turn the other cheek and don't judge and let's just be as un-Christlike as we can be, generally speaking. I mean, who has the courage to go from town to town preaching the Word of God like Jesus Christ did? Who has the courage to flip the money changers' tables over and whip them for buying and selling in the temple? The reason Islam flourishes in the United States is twofold: 1) The Christian community is cowering in a corner somewhere and won't do a single thing to stop it and 2) the Islam community is not afraid to assert their beliefs whether the rest of the world likes it or not. They stand for something while we no longer stand up for anything. We sit in our comfortable pews on Sunday (if you're a 1st day Sabbath keeper) or Saturday (if you are a 7th day Sabbath keeper) then go home and play video games or watch wrestling. Anyway, your question really didn't have anything to do with this thread. You should start a different thread if you want to discuss a different topic. No worries though.

Yes, if you stand on a table and start preaching on the curb, you are a "FREAK" although, everyone would at least stop and listen. (we all like to watch freaks) That does take a lot of courage. I am guilty of wanting to go to a church where it is more easy going and I can get away with "breaking the rules", ohhhhh I wish I could be more of a "tight a--"! I wish we all would stop "cowering" as you put it... And last, I think if you stand for something, good morals and respect for others is very important, on the other hand babying people is different than respecting them... We are all wanting to be babied and we don't want to take responsibility for our actions...
I always thought that the reason for someone not believing in GOD is because they didn't want to take that kind of responsibility! I don't believe that about all non believers but it is definitely the case in some people I have met! Hugs to all of you. Even though this thread had gone off course, I still love the whole conversation!

[ActionJackson]

The point I was trying to make (and it may not have come across exactly as I had intended) is that Jesus Christ wasn't a softie Who just accepted everyone as they are. His verbage was straight forward and clear. With His words, He paved a very narrow path for entry into the Kindgom of God. Phrases like "many are called but few are chosen" or "except your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven" or "The Son of man shall send forth His angels...and gather out of His kingdom all things that offend...and cast them into the furnace of fire..." Not kind words at all but rather direct and to the point.

[startover22]

I am pretty sure we are on the same page, but with different vocabularies, as I cannot quote from the bible. I think you are right.

[inthebox]

Action jackson - agree with all your posts

I think people confuse " trying to be good " with righteousness. Rom 3:23, Eph 2: 8-10,
And forget that grace bears "fruit." [ last half of James 2 ]


Rachie :

It is not about religion / denomination and their traditions , but about Jesus / God, read and study His word [ Bible ] and ask questions.




John 3:16 - For God so loved the WORLD that He...

World I think that is as inclusive as you can get, we each have a choice.





Grac and Peace

[speechlesstx]

why can't people accept the fact that we will NEVER have the answers?

Good question, and I can certainly understand your frustration. As a member of one of those "bible churches" and one that spent a fair amount of time thinking we had all the answers, I can say without a doubt we don't, and the church needs to spend more time and effort on the Great Commission and less on distinctions and division. Most of what separates orthodox Christian denominations isn't anything that really matters a whole lot in the scheme of things in my book, so what's the point?

That said I think it's human nature to want to feel superior to someone else, and it seems that a lot of times when people "get Jesus" (or Allah or whatever) they think they've found their key to superiority, instead of growing, maturing, embracing the principles (basically, love) and spreading that around.

On the other hand I believe we would be remiss if we didn't defend our core beliefs, such as faith, salvation by grace, the divinity of Jesus, etc. but that doesn't mean we should hammer everyone for not believing exactly as we do. I can say I have issues with certain aspects of Catholicism, but I'm sure Catholics have issues with Baptists as well, but I find no reason to judge a Catholic's (or anyone else for that matter) relationship with God - that's between you and God - and I believe we worship the same God. :)

[ordinaryguy]

I think it's human nature to want to feel superior to someone else, and it seems that a lot of times when people "get Jesus" (or Allah or whatever) they think they've found their key to superiority, instead of growing, maturing, embracing the principles (basically, love) and spreading that around.

Sadly, I'm afraid you're right about this. The desire to be special, superior, chosen, or otherwise different and better than others explains a whole lot of human behavior, attitudes and beliefs, and not just in matters of religion.

[startover22]

I believe that what we do and say to someone will affect them big time as well as our own selves. There is a huge desire to feel better and I wish I could say I don't have that desire. Now if we are talking about me having a bigger diamond ring than someone else, then I can see what you are saying. But what if I am just wanting to better myself in every way, not just by having a bigger ring, but by making myself who I really want to be. Volunteering, taking time to listen to my kids or doing a better job cleaning my house?? Does that mean I am not good? No, it just means that we all want to be better, not necessarily superior. I don't even know if that made sense but I tried.

[ActionJackson]

I find no reason to judge a Catholic's (or anyone else for that matter) relationship with God - that's between you and God - and I believe we worship the same God. :)

Having done a great deal of study of the tenets of the Catholic church, I've come to the conclusion that it primarily idolatrous. Having said that, I don't necessarily believe that all Catholics are bad or evil. Only God knows their hearts and He, not I, is the ultimate Judge. As for whether the God of the Roman Catholic institution is the same as the God of the Christian Church, I will have the Scriptures speak:

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the SIMPLICITY (emphasis mine) that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which he have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." II Corinthians 11:4

Roman Catholicism, in my opinion, has weaved a very complicated web within the religion of Christianity. I feel badly for those who have been deceived.

[NeedKarma]

I feel badly for those who have been deceived.

As do I.

[Wangdoodle]

Having done a great deal of study of the tenets of the Catholic church, I've come to the conclusion that it primarily idolatrous. Having said that, I don't necessarily believe that all Catholics are bad or evil. Only God knows their hearts and He, not I, is the ultimate Judge. As for whether the God of the Roman Catholic institution is the same as the God of the Christian Church, I will have the Scriptures speak:

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the SIMPLICITY (emphasis mine) that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which he have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." II Corinthians 11:4

Roman Catholicism, in my opinion, has weaved a very complicated web within the religion of Christianity. I feel badly for those who have been deceived.

This is simply about a point of view. I could easily say the same about the non-Catholic Christians.

[startover22]

My whole family was Catholic, I for some reason was never comfortable with the whole naming my religion thing! Even when I was younger. What I was comfortable with was knowing in my own heart there was a higher power somewhere out there, and I choose to call it God. Him God. I have yet to read the whole bible, I have yet to take in some of lives important lessons. But I am at ease to know that I will be getting help along the way. Thankful too. Also this whole thing is about hippocrates , so I guess we all better start joining this post, right?

[ordinaryguy]

But what if I am just wanting to better myself in every way, not just by having a bigger ring, but by making myself who I really want to be.

The problem isn't with wanting to be better than we are, it's with wanting to be better than someone else. I don't have a problem with competition per se, but it's hard not to derive our sense of self-worth from where we place in the race and to look down on those who are behind us.

[kindj]

You're on a roll with some pretty good answers thus far. Allow me to toss in my little tidbit, for whatever it's worth. Bear with me, OK? I promise it's relevant.

Way back when I was an undergrad in college, I was taking a class in social psychology (I think), when an interesting experiment came to my attention. It wasn't a psychological experiment, it was actually in the field of communication or something like that, but quickly, the psychological/sociological ramifications arose. Essentially, the deal was this: there were two groups, each IDENTICAL in their makeup--the same number of whites, asians, blacks, age-groups, etc. The two groups were as identical as possible to each other in all regards, save one: one "team" wore red t-shirts to the experiment and one wore blue. Essentially, they were two identical focus groups or whatever that operated separately to work on a problem or evaluate something, and then came together as one big group to discuss their findings. Well, it wasn't long before the groups--in private--began to make comments such as "the blues won't understand this" or "typical red behavior." Soon, the comments weren't restricted to just the team times, and they began openly slamming each other in the large group meetings. At one point, physical violence erupted between members of the blue team and the red team. Remember, these were originally merely two identical teams working on the same problem. Eventually, what you had was prejudice and hatred based solely on the group that one belonged to.

Starting to sound familiar?

I've used that example in many lectures and sermons I've given on the whole "we're all Christians, why can't we work together" thing, because I can never spell that "ecumen..." word. :o

Within all of us humans, there is a tendency to some degree to want to feel superior to someone else. I don't know why, but I think that fact stands. Like many other things that are chalked off as "human nature," we have to work hard to try and overcome it, and sadly, many people do not want to overcome certain things. Thus, the hypocritical label is slapped on them, fairly or unfairly.

As for me, I tried to go to sleep last night about 11 o'clock. I ended up not sleeping until after 3 am. I had a loooooooong talk with God about my own hypocrisy that I had quite subtly and easily slid into over a period of months.

The truth is that Christians are just as much hypocrites as anyone else. Or so it would seem. Many use God's grace and forgiveness as a shield or excuse for their actions, and I think that is not right. Grace and forgiveness are more akin to a safety net than a shield, we should still strive with all our might to not fall.

If only all the Christian denominations (and yes, that includes my Catholic brethren), would stop and think for just a minute, they would see that there are a thousand more things that unite us than divide us, and typically the "divisions" are tiny issues that have virtually nothing to do with the grace and salvation offered to us by God.

My suggestion? Go to the church of your choice. But remember, you are not there primarily for the other people, or the pastor. You are there to show YOUR devotion and willingness to learn and serve God. That's the nifty thing about the New Covenant: it's personal. It's a one-on-one relationship between you and God via Jesus Christ and his act of salvation. Remember what he said was the "greatest" commandments?

"Love God. Love others."

THAT'S the truth, and the Truth. THAT'S how to please God and show the world that you are His.

All the rest is, as they say, by the way.

DK

[speechlesstx]

"Love God. Love others."

You got it buddy.

[startover22]

My suggestion? Go to the church of your choice. But remember, you are not there primarily for the other people, or the pastor. You are there to show YOUR devotion and willingness to learn and serve God. That's the nifty thing about the New Covenant: it's personal. It's a one-on-one relationship between you and God via Jesus Christ and his act of salvation. Remember what he said was the "greatest" commandments?

"Love God. Love others."

THAT'S the truth, and the Truth. THAT'S how to please God and show the world that you are His.

All the rest is, as they say, by the way.


START::::::::::::::::
I can take that. I totally get what you are saying!

[ActionJackson]

This is simply about a point of view. I could easily say the same about the non-Catholic Christians.

Oh, definitely, there are non-Catholic institutions that are idolatrous as well. And you are right, it is a point of view based on facts and discovery.

[ActionJackson]

The truth is that Christians are just as much hypocrites as anyone else. Or so it would seem. Many use God's grace and forgiveness as a shield or excuse for their actions, and I think that is not right. Grace and forgiveness are more akin to a safety net than a shield, we should still strive with all our might to not fall.

DK

I happen to agree with you. I find myself getting caught up in the name calling and the bickering when it isn't really necessary to do so. I'm far from perfect. I do get defensive when Jesus Christ or young, new Christians are under attack. I don't care when I'm under attack. I come from a family of 8 and we had to learn out to stand up for ourselves at a young age. I am a staunch believer in the Holy Bible. I test everything I hear to the Word of God to see if it is true or false. I believe that God is my Shield and my Buckler and that His Word is sharper than any two edged sword. Debating the Word of God is not a bad or evil thing. Christ stood up to the Pharisees, Sadducees, and scribes on numerous occasions. He told us to "occupy till He comes." Christians should stop being hypocrites and start being warriors, Christian warriors.

[startover22]

Dearest poppa0777, I actually used that as a quote from kindj! It is perfect, isn't it. But thanks for the feedback anyway, I just wanted it noted that kindj should take credit for that!

[ActionJackson]

This is simply about a point of view. I could easily say the same about the non-Catholic Christians.

Sure. Point of view can be a powerful thing. The eagle in the tree easily sees the rabbit. The rabbit surrounded by thistles and bushes can hardly see at all.