[Ruby2]

I have 4 four week old kittens. All have been doing well and now want to start weaning them. Problem is mummy cat (Jinx) keeps eating what I put down before the kittens have had chance even to sniff it! She even pushes them away while eating it! Is this normal?

[bushg]

It is not time for her to wean them... she will do this own her own. I know that you did not ask for this info... but as a person that is involved in cat rescue. Please spay your cat, we have millions of cats in this country that is put to death each year, because of lack of homes for them. Also many cats are feral and eat what they can when they can. Good luck

[DocWill]

When the babies start biting and chewing at their mom instead of sucking (3-4 weeks of age), they may be started on some finely textured canned food. At first it may be necessary to mix solid food with a little formula and /or smear a little around their mouths gently with a finger. All of this should be done away from the mom.

** post edited to eliminate some name calling

[bushg]

Mothers will naturally stop allowing kittens to nurse between the ages of 8 and 12 weeks. If a kitten is weaned to early, it misses out on a chance for the mother to teach it valuable kitten lessons.( believe me a cat can teach her kitten better than a human can )Changing a kittens diet to young can cause diarrhea... which can cause dehydration and rapid weightloss. This can be deadly for a kitten because they have so little weight to begin with. I say better to let the mom wean them at her pace... I personnaly would not introduce them to food until they were at least 6 weeks old.

[Fr_Chuck]

Several posts of name calling were deleted, that did not add anything of value to the original post.

Sadly just being totally wrong on a subject is not reason for me to delete a answer, but please review the follow web sites on weaning kittens
Weaning them to early can be extremely dangerous for the kitten

While some interest in food will begin at the 3 or 4 week time frame, full weaning does not take place for at leat another month. And as noted it is normally a natural thing the cats do for thierself and often people can mess up nature by trying to rush the natural way things happen.

Weaning A Kitten From Its Mother - Tips

[bushg]

Wow fr chuck, I just read the site and it convinces me even more on my original post. Also it gave me great insight on the suckling of covers, thank you I hope that everyone looks at the website that you provided... It never hurts to educate ourselves on our furry friends.

[labman]

I seldom post to cats or other areas I know little about. I do post in dogs where I have far more training and experience than the average dog owner. Some of the worst advice I have ever read was found by less experienced people Googling up some crackpot website they lacked the knowledge to recognize as dangerous. DocWill is fairly new here, but I would take his word over a website I know nothing about. When I direct people to a website for dog info, I usually stick to the AVMA or the AKC.

[RubyPitbull]

My goodness! What the heck is going on here? Ruby2, I am sorry that your thread seems to have experienced a breakdown here.

I am primarily a dog rehab person but I am also involved in a local TNR program when I am asked to help out, and have experience with working with cats. My background is on rescuing all animals that have been "dumped" by people who choose to go with the irresponsible approach. With that in mind, I have to tell you all that what DocWill wrote is correct. We do exactly what he is describing for both pups and kittens who have been abandoned too young. Obviously, the preferred method of weaning, when a mama cat is around and available, is to allow the mama to do her work. This is how kittens learn. Usually, Mama has the kittens weaned by the time they are 8 weeks old. It has to do with those sharp little teeth hurtin' the heck out of her. When she has enough, she starts letting them know that the breakfast bar has been closed. That can begin as early as 5 or 6 weeks or as late as 8 weeks. It all depends on the Mama. If it appears that she needs help, or her nipples are becoming sore and infected, then we get involved and help her, no matter what age the kitten is.

What I am about to state is for the benefit of all the newer posters here. On this website, we are all allowed to voice our opinions, and for those of us who have the background and experience, we are obligated to correct any misinformation posted. DocWill is an emergency hospital Veterinarian. I would not dismiss anything he has to say regarding animals. If I did disagree with him, I would defer to him, but state that this isn't a case where a young animal has been abandoned and ask if he would recommend someone interfere with the animals at such a young age. You should have given him a chance to post further information rather than slap him down immediately.

Getting into such nasty back and forth as this seemed to have evolved into, is a huge problem here on AMHD. No name calling, personal attacks, and abusive language. It is the only major steadfast rule. The site owners want us to help people. When I see something I don't agree with, unless the person is totally and completely off the mark, I will always say, "Well, I don't fully agree with you because,...." We are here to help people the best way we know how. Personal attacks are just not constructive. I think the "agree/disagree" link has been greatly abused throughout this site. It would benefit all to reread the rules of conduct. If you are having trouble locating this information, I am always willing to help.

Ruby2, as someone who deals with unwanted animals all the time, I must state that if you love your cat, the kindest thing you can do for her is to have her spayed after those kittens have been weaned. Among a host of other benefits, it will avoid her developing uterine cancer as she gets older. In the U.S. we have millions of animals that are euthanized every year for lack of space. Most of the victims are cats. If I told you what I have seen over the years, the things people do to unwanted pets, it would make you physically ill. Please, for the sake of your cat, do this responsible thing for her. If you have financial concerns, there are quite a number of low cost spay/neuter clinics throughout North America. If you cannot find one near you, please post back and let me know the area that you live in. I will give you all the info that I turn up.

[bushg]

I have 4 four week old kittens. All have been doing well and now want to start weaning them. Problem is mummy cat (Jinx) keeps eating what i put down before the kittens have had chance even to sniff it! She even pushes them away while eating it! Is this normal?

Ruby 2 my post has seemd to cause quite the stir... so I decided to call various vets in my area... this is my findings... 1 vet said to have them fully weaned by 6 weeks 1 said by 8 weeks.. 1 said not to give them food until at least until 5 weeks of age and 1 said between 8 and 12 weeks and not later thatn 12 weeks... also they said mama cat should be on kitten fromula while feeding. Also I looked on various web sites and saw the same conflicting info... so I guess it is up to the owner... vet and mama cat to know when the time is right. Good luck

[labman]

I found this at the ASPCA site, Thank You for Helping Us Help Homeless Pets.:

''3. At first, curious kittens will probably want to play with their food rather than eat it, but the youngsters will soon catch on as they watch mom eat. By the time kittens are five to six weeks old, they should be nibbling on dry food consistently. This process of gradually introducing kitten food is important in training the cats to eat when they are weaned.''

I would trust the ASPCA more than some cat picture site. Perhaps somebody owes DocWill an apology.

[RubyPitbull]

I have always come up against the problem of getting differing opinions from vets. I put my trust in the vet that is handling the particular problem at hand. I do trust the ASPCA more than someone who has created their own website. However, I am obligated to go with the guideline of whatever group I am working with. DocWill did give Ruby2 constructive advice to the problem she was encountering. Fr Chuck & bushg were not wrong, if Ruby2 was just looking to start 4 week old kittens on solids before Mama is ready for it. Pet owners should never force a situation. Since we don't know why she asked this question and her reasoning behind it, we can keep guessing until we are old and gray. There is no reason to continue to go back and forth with this anymore. Ruby2 has not given us any further clarification. There is always room for logical and rational discussion when the questions regarding a situation are not complete, as this one was.

I think it would be wise for Ruby2 to now make whatever choice she wants to in this matter and leave it at that. Frankly, I am a little confused as to why she didn't just call her own vet for advice in the first place. I think we can all agree that when you are dealing with breeding of any kind, it is wise to educate yourself completely prior to breeding. Too many people just allow their pets to become pregnant and breed. It is an all too common problem.

[DocWill]

Took me forever to find this, and openly offer the complete notarized copy. To authenticate date published and author, Fr_Chuck, with your supplied address. Your remark regarding my feline understanding and medical ability pertain to such, is at best plausible to be polite. According to the acceptance and acknowledgment to represent all parties listed below as publishable medical fact.

I wrote this (Date Published: 10/4/2004 12:49:00 PM) for the Veterinary Information Network, Inc. This is a Veterinary Info guide from accredited Vets (ME) for continuing education on new findings and up to date case studies currently accepted into practice.

I will call it "Feline labor 101" for this message only.
Many people are surprised to find that the feline reproductive system is seasonal. Cats are designed to give birth only during warm months (spring through early fall).

The female cat begins cycling when she has reached 80% of her adult size and when the days are appropriately long. This could be as young as 5 months of age. After age 7 or 8, cycles become irregular and there are more complications with birth so it is important to finish a female cat's breeding career before this time.

Indoor cats are sheltered from the light cycles of the sun and may not cycle as frequently as their outdoor counterparts. On the other hand, breeders who keep their cats completely indoors can manipulate the light cycle of the cattery so as to allow for year round cycling if desired.

Proestrus: This is the time in the cycle when the female begins attracting males but it not yet receptive to their advances. Estrogen is building up and she is preparing for ovulation. The female is extra affectionate at this time, rubbing her head and sticking her rump in the air. She may also urine mark in the house and vocalize loudly and frequently. This period may be as short as 12 hours and as long as 2 days.

Estrus: The female cat's behavior continues: rubbing, crying etc. but the difference here is that the male is accepted when he approaches. This behavior persists approximately 7 days (on the average) and during that time the female's behavior is often objectionable to the owner. Contrary to previous belief, the act of mating does not shorten the estrus period (though it does substantially lengthen the time before the next estrus period). The female cat is ready to ovulate at this time but will not do so unless a male cat breeds her.

Interestrous Period: This is the period between times of behavioral estrus. If the cat is not bred or is bred and fails to ovulate, this time is 8 to 10 days on the average. This means that the yowling, rubbing, urine marking, and other estrous behaviors continue for about a week, then discontinue for about a week, then begin again, back and forth all spring and summer and into the fall until the cat is either bred, spayed, or perceives the coming of winter. This behavior of the mature female cat is often all the motivation it takes for an owner to get her spayed even if she is completely confined indoors and has no chance of unwanted pregnancy.

Diestrus: If the female is bred and ovulates, she goes into this different reproductive stage. Her ovaries prepare for possible pregnancy and she will stay out of heat for at least 35 to 37 days even if she is not pregnant. If she is pregnant, she will carry her kittens for 64 to 66 days before delivering the litter. If for some reason, spaying is desired but must be delayed and yet the estrous behavior is driving the owner crazy, she may be fooled into thinking she has been bred through manipulation with a rectal thermometer. If you are interested in this procedure, contact your veterinarian as it is not as simple as it may sound but is often effective in providing peace at home.

The action packed ending with a splash of medical wording for educational intrests!
Several hours (and perhaps a whole day) of restlessness, grooming, nesting, pacing, panting, vomiting, and crying indicates that labor has begun. Like dogs, there is often a drop in body temperature ( to less than 99F) indicating contractions will commence in the next 12 to 36 hours, but this is not as reliable a finding as in dogs. The female cat secludes herself in her selected nest area and begins to purr.

The above first stage of labor progresses to the second stage of labor with the initiation of hard contractions and the birth of a kitten. The third stage of labor refers to the passing of the placenta. The entire litter is born usually within 6 hours with kittens every 30 to 60 minutes. If she is stressed or distracted she is able to stop her labor and restart the next day. The new mother usually eats the placenta and membranes of the kitten's sac. There is no special benefit to this behavior so if one wishes, one may remove these tissues from the nest and prevent her from eating them. Do not attempt to move her and the kittens to a “better” nest spot after labor has started. This may stress her into curtailing her labor or worse may scare her into neglecting the litter.

Strong contractions for more than 60 minutes without production of a kitten indicates she needs help and should see the vet right away.

Most of the time labor is normal and goes off without a hitch. Kittens may begin solid food around age 4 weeks of age and may be adopted to new homes at age 6 weeks.

Vaginal discharge is normal for up to 3 weeks post-partum. This discharge is typically black or reddish and consists mostly of old blood. If the discharge seems particularly bloody, have the vet assess her blood loss. If the discharge looks like pus, she may have a uterine infection. Bring her to the vet; she may need to be spayed right away.

Complications Surrounding Labor and Pregnancy

Vaginal Bleeding: Vaginal bleeding during pregnancy is not normal and suggests that she is aborting the litter. If this is occurring late in pregnancy (the 8th week) she may be delivering the litter prematurely and a cesarean section is likely necessary. In either case, have the vet check her to assess the blood loss and decide what to do.

Dystocia: If she has been having strong contractions for greater than 60 minutes, she needs assistance in passing the kitten. Bring her and any kittens delivered to the vet's office right away.

Retained Placenta/Metritis: If the mother cat retains the placenta, she can develop an infection, fever, appetite loss, and neglect the kittens. If this occurs, she will need to see the vet right away, possibly be hospitalized and will probably need to be spayed to remove the infection.

Anyone notice that this was published for educational direction to other vets just shy of 3 years ago. Mainly the reason it took me so long to locate it. Funny how I described the weaning age way back then as the standerd protocol. Teaching thousands of fellow Veterinarians for improved medicine and greater quality health care. Because I care.

DocWill

This publication was approved to meet the following as accepted medical and or standard procedure by: American Board of Veterinary Practitioners,American Association of Feline Practitioners,American College Veterinary Internal Medicine, and Veterinary Information Network board of Specialists.

[DocWill]

Is this normal?

As I see and read the question, Ruby states Is that normal ? To ensure any confusion between normality and innormality I searched for better part of a day a paper I wrote describing in great detail all aspects of maternity to the exact date the kittens graduate kitty milk. Coincidentaly it's the same numerical value as originally posted, and excused by a random Google hit.
The answer to her question is yes, its quite normal behavior. I didn't decide a random date to create an ongoing dispute. I provided acurate info to the question is it normal. Only to find belittlement along with acusations incorrect concerning my medical knoledge referencing felines. Im not better than anyone else, we are all going to die and smell funny, so as I perceive unexcitable behavior directed at my life long study and commentment to small animal health from a person with a bit less experience then me was a little shocking. I mean no more harm then the next person, I just enjoy sharing what my life has been devoted to with others that love dumb cats and lazy dogs as me. Thanks for listening, hope to continue sharing the gift I was given in hope to make a smile and a wagging tail.

[RubyPitbull]

Most of the time labor is normal and goes off without a hitch. Kittens may begin solid food around age 4 weeks of age and may be adopted to new homes at age 6 weeks.

I found this whole medical write up fascinating and appreciate your posting this DocWill. We have a lot of people who show up wanting to know if their cat is pregnant. Pisses me off to no end when someone is so irresponsible as to not get their cat fixed and allows them to roam around outside when in heat. This article will be of enormous help when the next person posts. I don't like answering questions from irresponsible pet owners. I am grateful that we have someone who is willing to share their medical knowledge.

My experience with cat pregnancy and kittens is limited to the rescue work I do. It is interesting how I have been given such a range of differing opinons from vets, as I stated earlier. I guess the simple fact is, as with humans, no animal is completely alike. It is good to know that it is okay for kittens can begin to eat solids at 4 weeks of age and can be placed into new homes as early as 6 weeks.

DocWill, it appeared to me from Ruby2s post that the mama cat seemed resistant to her attempts to wean the kittens. Is it possible that the mama cat was not ready for them to be weaned as I assumed? Since I have never attempted to wean a kitten at 4 weeks, is the mama cat's reaction normal behavior for all mothers? Should she have just continued her attempts using the method you described, or should she wait a few days or a week and try again if they aren't any closer to being weaned? What do you usually recommend? It would be a lot easier if we could begin weaning at 4 weeks and try for placement at 6 weeks. Usually, for both, we are one to two weeks out on that, but I am hesitant to attempt to force the mama before she is ready.

[DocWill]

Keeping in mind this study and findings I reported took me over 7 years. So this lead to many compairisons. What I read, not adding into it, only what she mentioned, is that the mother was eating up the food before the kittens even had a chance to. She didn't mention anything about separation of feeding, with could change everything.

Set aside a table full of candy, in front of 1 teenager and 4 six year olds who gets candy?
I saw that time and time again in my study. I have personaly never been a mother or parent of 2 legged kids. I bet it takes a lot out of you breast feeding, sleep issues, energy, nutrician and patience. Not easy on women, or Cats. I do know the nutrician required for a mother cat to provide herself and kittens. If I was her I would too be trying like mad to catch up on energy levels, eating all the food, replenishing the past 4 weeks worth that has ACTUALLY been sucked right out of me by nurcing. I reported on how to feed them in great detail. Instinctively all this takes placein the time frame as stated. I know if they were fed like that separated from mother, instincts on feeding would have been present.

GO CAT GO!

[RubyPitbull]

Thank you, that makes sense. The biggest problem we encounter is everyone reads a post and interprets it differently. Different words pop out at us. As I reread it, I can see exactly how you interpreted it. Thanks. I am going to print this out and speak with my friends at the rescues and see how it is received. Obviously, we are obligated to go with the vets they work with but these procedural rules were set down a long time ago and they may be open to change. All I can do is try. :)

[DocWill]

Im not smart enough to add extra words, Im lucky to comprehend what the question is.

I can also make a feeding schedule and plan for kittens by weight of age, if that is needed as well.

Ok what was the question? Lol

[airbats-goku]

I have kittens that are 4 weeks old right now and I am about to start them on room temperature milk and slowly progress over the week to this milk with soft pate food mixed into it. I am expecting to have them onto pate or chunked canned food alone by week seven and onto hard food by week 10. Does this sound reasonable? As far as the name calling around here goes, please understand that we all have a right to our own opinions and that many of the posters are experienced in these matters. If you want verification of a poster's experience then look up their previous posts and make your judgement from there.

[DocWill]

Calfs get milk
Cats are lactos intollerant why would anyone give them milk?
When cats have teeth its wet kitten food, 4 weeks should have teeth, put some kitten food and water in the blender.

[bushg]

Doc will canned or dry ( in the blender) . Every time I read your article I see something new... I think it should be stressed that cat's in heat are seasonal, so that people get them spayed before the heat cycle starts. That way we do not have so many kittens killed because of over crowding in shelters.